Christ DID speak out against homosexuality

What I have to say is to people who claim to be Christians.

Jesus spoke out against sexual immorality.
Matthew 15:18-20

18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean.

Mark 7:20-23

20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. 21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean.

We have to realize that sexual immorality is a category of sin that includes all sexual sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.

Paul had to deal with one specific instance of sexual immorality: a man having sex with the wife of his father. This is identified as a sin in the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus 18:8, Leviticus 20:11, Deuteronomy 22:30, and Deuteronomy 27:20. Paul did not further address specific examples of sexual immorality in this passage. However, it is clear that it was a category of sin that dealt with sex that God had prohibited.

Christ said the entire category of sin known as sexual immorality was evil. 

Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this; this would come from the Old Testament. As Christians today, we use both the Old and New Testaments to see Who God is, what God has done, how God feels about issues in life, and what He expects of and for us.

The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse

A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11

Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.

The term translated in Romans 1 as ‘lust’ is epiqumia in Greek. It means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust. 

It is even the mere desire for same gender sex that is wrong in God’s eyes.

Paul said we must turn away from wickedness if we confess Christ as Lord:

2 Timothy 2:19

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.

Paul also said God will punish men for sin.

1 Thes 4:3-8

3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

It does not matter how you feel about it. It does not matter how you justify it. God said if you do not change and turn to God, then you are not saved. If you claim you have repented and turned to God, then you need to live like it.

Note: edited to include the discussion on sexual immorality as a category 10/13/08.
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138 Responses

  1. wow… heavy!!!! God bless!!

  2. Its a deep issue, but its straight forward, if we take the Bible to be the word of God.

    God bless you too!

  3. dear fellow Christian,

    What are you so afraid of? Jesus said “love thy neighbor” and “do not judge lest you be judged”. So many times people try to interpret Jesus’ teachings to fit their brand of fear and hate. Why not go with what he spoke of most all and in plain words: love and truth and peace? So again I ask, what are you so afraid of??

  4. I am not afraid, other than for those who choose to continue doing this particular sin. God was quite clear in speaking out against it. It is not loving to allow people to step off a cliff without saying ‘watch out!’ It is much more loving to warn them of the truth.

    I don’t hate either. Its not hate when a doctor tells you that you have cancer and need surgery.

    As for whether we should judge, God said to call people on their sins.

    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/should-christians-judge/

    As for love, Jesus said we would obey if we love Him.

    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/the-need-for-belief-love-and-obedience/

  5. I’m a gay man who just finished reading the book of Leviticus. To be honest, if all the Christians who do not spread slanderous gossip among their people, do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of fabric, never eat meat that has not been drained of its blood, do not trim off the hair on their temples or clip the edges of their beards. Who, if law permitted, would put to death children who curse their father and mother and burn prostitutes want to call over here, and tell me how to live my life by god then thats just fine by me, but if your going to engage in behaviour that (wether it’s your intention or not) incites hatred, i suggest you base it on a more steady foundation than the book of Leviticus. Because it’s a book, not a sentence. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you, John 15:12. I can tell you I am NOT, feeling the love on this website.

    • Kryp, the Bible commands us to love everyone. It is an absence of love that would cause a Christian to remain silent about your sin and let you burn in hell. The “you guys are sinning, so I am going to keep on committing my sin of choice” routine is not going to fly with God. I pray that you will feel the love and grace of our Lord Jesus and turn from your sin. Indeed, Jesus does love you and wants you to accept His wonderful gift of forgiveness that He paid for in full with His blood when He died on the cross. You must repent of your sin in order to accept it though. Trying to get forgiveness without repentance is like trying to eat, but refusing to open your mouth in order to accomplish the task of the consumption of food.

      • Shayn, I am uncertain whether Kryp still reads comments on this blog. But I pray he changes his mind and turns to God and has deeds appropriate to repentance.

        • Hi WB,
          I do still get updates when someone comments here and check back in. I have been in Pakistan for the Summer-hence the late reply! It was an interesting opportunity to get a glimpse of another strand of Abrahamic faith although there are so many sects to Islam it is difficult for someone with a passing interest to quatify the variety of belief a “muslim” can hold.

          Hi Shayn
          While I do check back in here I remain unconvinced that there is any valuable dialogue that can take place between myself, a homosexual and a member of your fundamentalist strand of christianity. You have your views, which I believe to be incorrect based on my beliefs and vice versa.
          Nothing you can say or do will ever convince me that a god has written a book and that this book sufficiently serves as proof for this god’s existence.
          I have no desire to detract from your own beliefs but for as long as you hold those beliefs you will believe me to be a “sinner” bound for hell who must be “saved”. This is not a suitable basis for discourse.
          I do wish you all the best with your life and your faith. I hope none of your close family members or friends ever have to struggle with their sexuality. I hope none of your family or friends ever wear polyester as leviticus also forbids. I hope your women always wear hats in church or you will have to cut their hair off, as leviticus instructs. Living your life by this book must indeed be very difficult and I genuinely have respect for your commitment to the bit.
          -Kryp

          • Hi Kryp. Still praying for you. :)
            I’m glad you were able to go to Pakistan. I’m sure it was interesting. I dont get to do much traveling these days.

            I pray you come to understand that living for God is not difficult, because God enables us to desire to do so and to be able to do so.

            As for the clothing thing, as I think I’ve mentioned before, we are to do or not do as God has instructed. The penalty for the laws in the old testament do not apply to Christians, because the Law has been fulfilled. Now, we need to follow what the apostles said to follow.

            Acts 15:19-21 (New International Version)
            “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

            The definition of from sexual immorality is found in the Old Testament, and includes incest. But the rest of it we are free from.

            • That’s interesting wb. Certainly does as intended and makes following the instructions of this book a bit more manageable.
              Where is sexual immorality described in full?
              What is food polluted by idols?
              Does the meat of strangeld animal refer to chickens killed by hand??
              Is blood a seperate subject then at the end? I don’t think too many of us could abstain from blood! We kind of need it :-D

          • “While I do check back in here I remain unconvinced that there is any valuable dialogue that can take place between myself, a homosexual and a member of your fundamentalist strand of Christianity.” The dialogue that takes place must be between you and the Holy Spirit Kryp. If you allow that honest conversation with the Great I AM to take place within the depths of your innermost being, you will be led away from the immoral acts of sodomy, felatio, etc. I pray that you are able to experience His love and power, and are able to embrace that love rather than the lie that those who would proclaim Jehovah’s message of Righteousness are hatemongers.

            • Thank you Shayn. For my part I hope that you come to see the hate your words creates, whether so intentioned or not. I also hope that you come to see that the book you base your beliefs on is just that and come to embrace the infinite possibility of the universe and the true potential of the human being.

    • This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you, John 15:12.
      Does not mean he had sex with the apostles or any man.

  6. Kryp, Love is telling people the truth, even when they don’t want to hear it. The truth is, God defines what is right or wrong. God said homosexual sex and desire are sin (Romans 1), as are the other things mentioned at the end of Romans 1.

    I see you selectively quoted Jesus. But let’s look at the whole of that passage.
    John 15:9-14
    9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

    Note: Jesus said you are his friend if you obey His commands. One of His commands was John 8:11b Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

  7. Hey wbmoore, thanks for the speedy reply.
    I might make clear now that i have a minimal knowledge of the bible. I took it to be my duty as a gay man to read this Leviticus that is always being thrown in my face and was shocked to see that it included so many unreasonable (and in my opinion irrelevant) laws and commands. Would it be correct to say that in Romans1 we read Pauls paraphrasing of God, and for the true word of god we must return again to Leviticus?
    I would enjoy some discourse on this subject. I’m twenty four and live in a small Irish town where this sort of ill feeling towards people is really unkown to me. I’m a well known charity and community activist and while not an active part of the gay community my partner is always at my side wether we are building a school in asia or organising a rock festival. Our families know each other and are good friends. I have appeared in local press and radio as a mamber of the gay community in the past and have never once encountered any ill feeling based on my sexuality. For my and my partners christian families time spent trying to change who we are would put the great lives that we have together and all the work we do to help other people at needless risk and drive us all away from each other. I don’t doubt that my mother may sit on occasion with my partners mother and wonder if we’ll be joining them in heaven, but why spend this life God gave us questioning his design and the choices people make with those lives when we can be doing so much more? Why don’t we come together to combat true evil like that which comes from the Westboro Baptist Church instead of convincing people who are good, (exemplified by the works they do) that they are wrong and evil?
    I look forward to your reply, as i post this it’s 20:00 here in Ireland :-)

  8. Hi Kryp, you’re welcome.

    Believe it or not, I have no ill feeling towards homosexuals. I have experience in that area. But I know, also from experience, there are some people who DO feel poorly towards homosexuals. I have not met many as an adult (I am in my 40s).

    I’m sure you know this, but I figured since I am not sure how much of the Bible you are aware of, I thought I’d cover it anyway, forgive me if you are already aware of it. The laws in the Old Testament laid out what God thinks is right and wrong, and provided punishment for breaking the law. The idea, according to Romans 3:19-26 and Galatians 3:19-25 (you can read them online at http://www.biblegateway.com/), was to show us that no one is perfect and to point us to our need for the righteousness that can only come from God Himself. God provided this righteousness when He sent Jesus to suffer and die for our sins (Jn 3:14-18). To take advantage of this gift, we need to change from running our own lives and believe God t the point where it changes our lives (Acts 26:20; James 2:14-22). By having faith in Christ, we are brought to spiritual life.

    According to Romans 3:23, everyone (probably speaking of adults) has sinned. Romans 6:23 tells us we earn death through sinning, but God provides the free gift of eternal life.

    While we might do things people consider to be good and moral, according to God, when we sin against God the best we can do is rags (Isaiah 64:6). We were created to be holy and righteous like God (Ephesians 4:24) and do good works (Ephesians 2:10). But to be considered ‘clean’ by God, we need to believe in Christ as our savior and the one in charge of our lives, and not do the things God says to not do (2 Peter 3:18; 2 Timothy 2:19; Ephesians 5:11). God is not currently punishing us in the here-and-now because He is showing kindness and patience to lead us to change (Romans 2:4-11).

    As for what we see in Romans 1-2, Paul was telling us what happens when we put created things in the place of God. Man is a created thing, so when we put ourselves (or others) in the place of God, the same sort of thing occurs as what was mentioned in Romans 1. Historically, Paul was writing in Romans 1 about people who did not love the true God, or pagans. We do not know the context of his remarks (whether he was talking about people worshipping and having homosexual sex, or simply people who were pagan and had homosexual sex). I think Romans 1 probably does have Leviticus and Deuteronomy in mind, but does not directly reference them, other than to say those who do these things deserve death. In this case, it is not necessary to reference them, because Paul was clear what God thinks about homosexual sex, as well as the other sins mentioned at the end of Romans 1.

  9. Hey WB, wow! Thats a lot of reading! Thankfully I have a bible and a Koran on the bookshelf, though before now i had never read more than the first few pages of either!
    There seems to be a little inconsistency, in John 3:18 and James 2 for example, the implication seems to be that faith and good works are the way to heaven. Not, faith, good works and heterosexuality?
    Romans 3:19-26- The implication i would take from that is that the laws set out in the Old Testament were no longer part of the path to heaven (perhaps God realised that man was only created in his IMAGE and could never be as perfect as He!) once again, faith in Jesus and good works are the path to heaven. That sounds so perfect, so simple and a fantastic basis for christianity but i know i’ve missed something in this, or we wouldn’t be engaged in this debate!!
    If all the references to homosexual sex refer back to Gods original laws in Leviticus then it refers to a complete set of laws that could only be followed by a small minority of christians if any?
    thanks as always!

  10. Hey Kryp.

    Sorry if I give you too much at once. :)

    The Bible is the history of God’s interaction with mankind through the history of one tribe. The Old Testament defined right and wrong and how to deal with God in concrete literal terms. The New Testament defines the same things, but in more spiritual terms. In the old covenant, there were provisions for what each person must do, via offerings and sacrifices, to be ritually ‘clean’ – even to the point of offerings for unknown or accidental sin (which means to miss the mark). This had to be done over and over again, since mankind is imperfect. But even in the Old Testament, God really wanted people’s hearts (Deuteronomy 10:15-17; Deuteronomy 30).

    In the new covenant, God is again wanting people’s hearts (Romans 2:29). The provision is made by Christ (Romans 10). It only had to be made once because Christ was God (John 5:18). Being God, HIS sacrifice for our sins was perfect. He freed us from the punishment of the Law, if we have faith (Galatians 3:13-14).

    The way to heaven is simply faith that God sent Christ to die and be resurrected (John 3:14-18). But what does faith mean? It means we will change (repent) and turn towards God (Acts 3:19). It means we will confess our sins, which is to say admit/acknowledge our faults/failures/weaknesses/sins and agree with God it was wrong (Leviticus 5:5; 1 John 1:9). Note, I am not saying you need to confess them to men, although that , and prayer, WILL help you to not fall back into them (James 5:16). James said faith in Christ means you will have external evidence of a changed life (James 2). Paul said something similar (Acts 26:20). But part of this changed life will include becoming more and more holy – not staying sinful or living a pattern of sin (Galatians 5:13-6:10; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Peter 1:13-16; 1 Peter 2:11-12). It also includes loving God and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves (Deuteronomy 6:5; Luke 10:27) and not causing our brothers to sin (Romans 14:20; 1 Corinthians 10:32).

    The particular sin itself is not all that important in most respects. We must strive to trust God through what Christ did, and let the Holy Spirit work in us to change us to become more like Christ (Ephesians 4). The reason I said in ‘most respects’ is that there are certain sins God has said will disqualify one for entrance into heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Revelation 21:7-8). God calls these things contrary to sound teaching (1 Timothy 1:8-11; 1 Timothy 6:3-10; Galatians 5:19-21).

  11. i’ll check all those refernces in full tomorrow, it’s 01:15 here so better crawl to bed soon!
    I see the refernce in Corintians 7:10 is pretty concusive but he then goes on to say that women who pray without wearing hats should have their heads shaved?? Cor 11:4-6
    And if Paul is speaking the word of God then why does the word of God change betweenCor6:9-11 and Revelation 21:7-8? Is it possible that Paul is paraphrasing the word of God. Paul says homosexuals will not be accepted into the kingdom but that is not mentioned in revelation which i think is the word of Jesus?
    Good night WB. Have enjoyed the debate this evening. I’ll try to get on tomorrow to continue.

  12. In reference to 1 Corinthians 11:4-6, we need to look at the fuller passage, 1 Cor 11:3-16. You’ll notice Paul speaks of a hierarchy: God the Father, Christ (God the Son), husband (or father), wife (or unmarried daughter). Christ is under the Father, the man is in submission to Christ, and the woman is in submission to the man. This does not speak to ability or worth, but of position of authority, much like a General, a colonel, a captain, and a lieutenant (I think they are called leftennet in the UK). In verse 4, Paul speaks of the honor we show God by removing our hats when we pray or prophecy. Verses 5-10 speak of wearing a symbol of authority. Since man was created in the image of God, he should not be covered, out of respect. But since the woman came from man and was created for man, she should have her head covered to show respect for the authority he has over her in the hierarchy. I think the principle involved here is the authority and respect.

    Take a look at 1 Cor 6:9 again. Depending on the version you have, it will say ‘fornicator’ or ‘sexually immoral’ or possibly ‘those who indulge in sexual sin’. The word for this in Greek is Pornos. This can be translated as either someone who prostitutes himself or someone who engages in unlawful sexual intercourse. The difference between 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Revelation 21:7-8 is merely choice of words in translating into English.

    Pornos is similar to Porneia, kind of like saying lesbian and homosexual (the latter can mean either male or female who is attracted to someone of the same gender, although it is usually used to speak of males, and the former is specific to females who are attracted to females), Porneia is also used to indicate someone who engages in unlawful sexual intercourse (as defined in Levitius 18, 20, and Deuteronomy 22:13-30).

    Pornos can be found in these verses:
    1 Corinthians 5:9; 1 Cor 5:10; 1 Cor 5:11; 1 Cor 6:9; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Timothy 1:10; Heb 12:16; Heb 13:4; Revelation 21:8;Re 22:15.

    Porneia can be found in these verses:
    Matthew 5:32; Mt 15:19; Mt 19:9; Markk 7:21; John 8:41; Acts 15:20 ; Acts 15:29; Acts 21:25; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Cor 6:13; 1 Cor 6:18; 1 Cor 7:2; 2 Cor 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Revelation 2:21; Rev 9:21; Rev 14:8; Rev 17:2; Rev 17:4; Rev 18:3; Rev 19:2

    As for is it possible Paul was paraphrasing, I don’t think so. According to Peter, in 2 Peter 3:14-16, Paul’s writings are Scripture. So Paul was speaking for God. I think the difference is that the audience was different, the purpose of the books are different, and the person was used by God to write 1 Corinthians was different than the person was used by God to write Revelation. They each had their own style, audience, language, and purpose for writing. And yes, John wrote down the words of Jesus in Revelation.

    Also, sometimes we mention part of a list when discussing a subject. Paul had been speaking, in 1 Cor 5, of someone who had ‘had’ his father’s wife. He used the term Porneia (the more general term) in 1 Cor 5:1. Then he went on and spoke to various types of immorality in the rest of chapters 5 and 6. In 1 Cor 6;9, Paul wrote about the ‘unrighteous’ or ‘wicked’ (depending on your version of Bible). The term used was Adikos, which means someone who violates justice. This shifts our focus from the justice of lawsuits, to the justice of people who break the law. Then he mentioned various things that are against the law as given in the old testament.

    As I understand the Bible, we need faith in what Christ did to get to heaven. But this faith will have evidence of a changed life (verbally declaring Christ as Lord and Savior, baptism after becoming a believer, becoming more like Christ internally, and living that change out externally). We are told to be Holy because God is holy (Leviticus 20:26; 1 Peter 1:16).

  13. If anyone is interested, I ended up making a comment, in a similar vein to this dialog, to a blog entry of mine in response to someone’s comment. Take a look if you are interested: http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/public-schooling-and-indoctrination/

  14. “The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
    1. illicit sexual intercourse
    A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11″

    So an other words man translated this word to mean what they want it to in the context they wish to use it. I understand hey what ever helps you sleep at night.

  15. I speak two languages. The translation of hogar can mean a few things: fireplace, hearth, or home. However it is often used in place of house.

    When you translate a word, it means what it means. I didn’t invent language, God did.

  16. Hey WBMoore,
    Sorry I haven’t been on, I just started work on a new contract and have been up the walls :)
    I checked over the bible quotes, though I didn’t have time to read the surrounding passages and take the context into account. Believe it or not the little reasearch our discourse has led me to has left me with a greater understanding of the bible than a lot of so called ‘christians’ that i’ve discussed these issues with before.
    I’ll have to take a break from this for a while to focus on work. I hope you’ll still be here when my time frees up again.
    A couple of points to leave you with:
    -Most of the references in the bible to homosexuality sit in context with a long line of other offences, one or more of which have been commited by every person I know, which is a broad spectrum of people(other than my partner i find i don’t have much in common with the gay community at large).
    -The references that I have read that mention homosexuality in a specific way come from Paul. Given the large population of people in the bible there is a very large statistical chance that Paul was a homosexual. The jump from suppresed homosexual to homophobe is a logical one. If this is the case he was ideally placed to twist the word of God to his own ends. This scenario would seem to me to be more congruent with the word of God in the rest of the book.
    -Put aside the bible for a moment (I can imagine thats no small order) and take a look at the world, which really, can be the ONLY true word of God. As you’ve said yourself, the bible was written by God through people, the real world is the only True Word Of God. He has written it and created it from where there was once nothing. Not written with people or any tool other than His glory. Respect the world and the people he has created. Unless you treat homosexual’s with true love and respect, you cannot show true love for the world that God has created, his only unquestionably true word.
    -You and I are both educated people, we can have this conversation coming from different points of view, accept each others point of view and try to understand each other better. In the hands of people who do not have an intelligent, loving understanding of others, your point of views leads to pain, misery and hatred. Mine does not.
    -We all know that in a War Crime tribunal, the defence of ‘I was just following orders’ when doing something that you know in your heart is the wrong thing to do is inadmissable. When you stand before God and tell Him your thoughts on homosexuality, and tell him that you were ‘Just following orders’, i would be interested to know if this is really what he intended.
    -There are ten commandments. God did not see fit to mention homosexuality. Very conclusive?
    Maybe all the laws that restrict homosexuality should be abolished and replaced with ones that imprison those who take the name of the Lord in vain?
    That about raps it up. i log on to see your replies. I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last couple of weeks, even found a few who could be saved from their misguided thoughts on their fellow man. I hope it won’t be long before I can come back here and try to help you some more.
    Thanks again WB, hope you keep well. talk again soon! :)

  17. Hey Kryp!

    I understand about a new job. I’m glad you’re researching, using the Bible. I find its the best place to know what God has said concerning most anything. There are many people who call themselves Christian who are ignorant of the Bible. It perplexes me, even though there was a point when I did not know much about the BIble. I was a new Christian and could be excused for my lack of knowledge. The same is not true for people who grow up in the church or who have been going to church for many years.

    “Most of the references in the bible to homosexuality sit in context with a long line of other offences, one or more of which have been commited by every person I know, which is a broad spectrum of people(other than my partner i find i don’t have much in common with the gay community at large).”

    You are correct. Most references to any given sin are right along with other sins. Many people commit them willingly. I also warn people about those. :) Either I, or my wife, or someone we know well have committed probably every sin in the Bible at one time or another. But its not about simply doing something God has said not to do. Its about acknowledging God has said it is wrong, agreeing with God its wrong, admitting you made a mistake, acquiring His forgiveness, and acclaiming His love. We have to walk away from sin. We have to leave our sins behind and walk toward God.

    “-The references that I have read that mention homosexuality in a specific way come from Paul.”

    Well, when speaking specifically about homosexuality, it is referenced in Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, Romans 1, and 1 Corinthians 6:9. The rest deal with sexual immorality as defined in Leviticus 18, 20, and Deuteronomy 22, which includes homosexual sex.

    “Given the large population of people in the bible there is a very large statistical chance that Paul was a homosexual. The jump from suppresed homosexual to homophobe is a logical one. If this is the case he was ideally placed to twist the word of God to his own ends. This scenario would seem to me to be more congruent with the word of God in the rest of the book.”

    Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.

    Just because Paul had to address an issue does not mean he personally had that problem. As a teacher, he would have had to address numerous problems in the church. His letters address many different issues. To assume he had a problem with all, or even many, of them does not make sense. And calling something wrong that God has said is wrong is not being hateful or fearful – it is being accurate and truthful and loving.

    “-Put aside the bible for a moment (I can imagine thats no small order) and take a look at the world, which really, can be the ONLY true word of God. As you’ve said yourself, the bible was written by God through people, the real world is the only True Word Of God. He has written it and created it from where there was once nothing. Not written with people or any tool other than His glory.”

    I disagree that the world is the only true word of God. God wrote the Bible using men. In it He spoke the message and that message was written down. The Bible is the written word of God. Christ is the Word of God (John 1). Both of them are as real as the world you live in, which God spoke into existence. We can see what God has created, but since the fall of mankind, with Satan’s help, the world is not the perfect place God created. God has allowed man and the demons, both of which have free will, to warp it. The glory of God can be seen in the world, but so too is it proclaimed in the written record of Who He is, What He has done, What He wants from us, What He wants for us, and What He will do.

    “Respect the world and the people he has created. Unless you treat homosexual’s with true love and respect, you cannot show true love for the world that God has created, his only unquestionably true word.”

    We are to be stewards of the world. We are to care for it, and everything in it – much like a shepherd cares for his sheep, we are to manage it. It provides our livelihood. We are to love God and our brothers.

    But you define love differently than God does. You want to claim that love is letting you do whatever you want. Every good parent knows this is not the case. God says if you love Him, you will obey Him (John 14:23-24; 2 John 1:5-6). God said to not be conformed to the world, but be changed (Romans 12:2). God said if your brother sins rebuke him (Luke 17:3). God said to hate what is evil, as defined by God (Romans 12:9). Love is not allowing someone to do something that damages their eternal future, not letting them do what they want when that same thing they want threatens their very soul.

    “-You and I are both educated people, we can have this conversation coming from different points of view, accept each others point of view and try to understand each other better. In the hands of people who do not have an intelligent, loving understanding of others, your point of views leads to pain, misery and hatred. Mine does not.”

    Actually, you are wrong. Intelligent people who have your point of view are putting people with my point of view in jail or fining them, even in the United States – the so called land of liberty. It will not be long before it becomes even more dangerous for people to hold my point of view in this country.

    “-We all know that in a War Crime tribunal, the defence of ‘I was just following orders’ when doing something that you know in your heart is the wrong thing to do is inadmissable. When you stand before God and tell Him your thoughts on homosexuality, and tell him that you were ‘Just following orders’, i would be interested to know if this is really what he intended.”

    He has made it clear what God intended. He said sin deserves death (Romans 6:23). In the Old Testament the death we deserve due to sin was covered by the sacrifice of animals for most sins, although there were certain sins for which God did not allow sacrifice. In the New Testament the death we earn by sinning was covered by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus to give us the gift of life (Romans 6:23). He said we are to tell the world (Matthew 28:18-20).

    “-There are ten commandments. God did not see fit to mention homosexuality. Very conclusive?”

    Actually, there were 613 commandments. He DID see fit to mention homosexuality – twice – when He gave them. The 10 are a summary of the rest, and an even greater summary was given by Christ – Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. But that love includes obedience to Him.

    “Maybe all the laws that restrict homosexuality should be abolished and replaced with ones that imprison those who take the name of the Lord in vain?”

    Are you putting yourself in the place of God? They are both sin. They both deserve punishment. They are both covered by Christ if we accept His gift of the sacrifice He made. But accepting that gift does not mean we are free to continue to sin. It simply means we are forgiven. But we must do what Christ said, “leave your life of sin” (John 8:11). This means do not live a pattern of sin, and confess the sins we do commit and stop sinning.

    “That about raps it up. i log on to see your replies. I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last couple of weeks, even found a few who could be saved from their misguided thoughts on their fellow man. I hope it won’t be long before I can come back here and try to help you some more.”

    I pray you come to understand God loves you. I pray you accept His gift and leave sin behind. I also pray your job goes well and you are able to have a life outside of it.

  18. “Actually, you are wrong. Intelligent people who have your point of view are putting people with my point of view in jail or fining them, even in the United States – the so called land of liberty. It will not be long before it becomes even more dangerous for people to hold my point of view in this country.”

    That’s what I thought, you are operating out of fear, wb. And, by the title of this blog entry you are specifically trying to spew hatred about homosexuals. The fact is, no where in the Bible does it say that “Jesus hated gays and so should you”. Sure, you can list a myriad of scripture but in the end it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of this scripture of what you THINK Jesus MEANT. Why do you suppose there are thousands of different of denominations and sects of Christianity?? Because there are just as many INTERPRETATIONS of His word. And just who is there to say which INTERPRETATION is “correct”? You? Me? How about Constantine? He was the one who commissioned the very first compilations be gathered and written, 300 or so years after Jesus’ death. So the scholars had to hastily decide what books and scriptures went in that first Bible and what was not included. Do you realize how many times through the ages the Good Book was translated, edited, redacted due to politics? It just seems pretty small minded to think that one INTERPRETATION could some how be better than all the others. I suppose you think that Jesus was born on December 25 too???

    “Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.”

    How can you possibly make a statement like this?? We cannot possibly know if Paul or anyone else in the Bible was or was not homosexual. Scholars cannot even agree on who wrote the Gospels or most of the Bible. One thing we do know is that homosexuals existed long before Jesus walked the earth and long after he died for all of us: black, white, yellow, brown, gay, straight, old, young, rich, poor, tall, short, female, or male. And my INTERPRETATION of the Bible is that God created everything and everyone and He did not make any mistakes.

    I understand where you are coming from, wb. Your belief compels you to take up the sword where Paul and the other early Christians left off all those centuries ago. That it is your duty as a good evangelical to show the rest of us the light. I am not against you or your beliefs or your INTERPRETATION of the Good Book. Aren’t we all so lucky to be living in this day and age that we have access to the internet and can fling our ideas across the universal with one click of our mouses. Bravo God! But also, I think now in this day and age, we humans, Christian or not, have learned much from our past mistakes. We have learned, for example, that slavery is wrong (but is advocated in the Bible), that women have undeniable rights just like men (sexism is advocated in the Bible), and that horrible injustices like murder is wrong (also, advocated in the Bible). I thank God and Jesus every day that I live in a time when you and me and everyone HAS THE RIGHT to think and live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. (Yeah, that is my INTERPRETATION)

    Maybe you just provocatively titled this blog to get more readers. Well done. But there is no where in the Bible that says that Jesus spoke out against homosexuals. Just not true, my friend. So your title is a lie, and I do believe the 9th commandment of the 10 commandments is “Thou shalt not bear false witness..” Hmmmmmmmmmmmm….

  19. “You are operating out of fear”

    No. Its not fear to recognize what is. It is honesty. It is becoming illegal to speak God’s word, even in this country.

    “by the title of this blog entry you are specifically trying to spew hatred about homosexuals.”

    You confuse love with hatred. I’ve been bisexual. My wife was lesbian. We know the truth of who God is and what God has said.

    If I see you stepping out in front of a speeding car, I have two choices: be quiet and let you get hit or try to stop you from certain death. It is not hatred to try to help people who are doing things that will hurt them.

    ” The fact is, no where in the Bible does it say that “Jesus hated gays and so should you”.

    No one has said to hate anyone one. If you are reading hate, it is because that’s where your mind is, bot because of what has been said. You are seeing what you want to see – not the truth.

    “Sure, you can list a myriad of scripture but in the end it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of this scripture of what you THINK Jesus MEANT.”

    Its clear Christ spoke out against sexual sin. Its clear Its clear God spoke out against homosexual sex as sin. Its clear Christ is God. You’re free to disagree, but you have been warned of the cliff you are walking off.

    ” who is there to say which INTERPRETATION is “correct”? You? Me?

    God says it. The only people who do not agree with the interpretation that homosexual sex is a sin are those who want to justify their own behavior or the behavior of people they love.

    ” How about Constantine? He was the one who commissioned the very first compilations be gathered and written, 300 or so years after Jesus’ death.”

    Actually, no. There were always collections of what had been written to the churches, from the very beginning.

    ” So the scholars had to hastily decide what books and scriptures went in that first Bible and what was not included.”

    Actually, again, no. There had been ongoing discussion as to which books were to be considered scriptural, to address heresy, long before Constantine called a council.

    ” Do you realize how many times through the ages the Good Book was translated, edited, redacted due to politics?”

    You seem to like to re-write history. Please provide sources for what you claim. The truth is, we can track the writing of various manuscript families through history.

    ” It just seems pretty small minded to think that one INTERPRETATION could some how be better than all the others.”

    It seems like you have a small view of God. I suggest you take Him out of the box you put Him in and let Him actually speak and work in your life. God loves you and wants you to know He wants the best for you. But He is Holy, Righteous, and Just, as well as loving. He will judge everyone. Only those who trust in Christ will see eternal life with God the Father.

    ” I suppose you think that Jesus was born on December 25 too?”

    No. Jesus was probably born in the spring circa 6-5 BC (http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/dates-for-new-testament-books/).

    “Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.”

    ” We cannot possibly know if Paul or anyone else in the Bible was or was not homosexual. ”

    Its easy. You believe God. God made it clear homosexual sex was a sin. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He lived a life that honored God. Living a life of sin does not honor God. Paul was obedient to God, because he loved God. God said homosexual sex is a sin. So, no, Paul was not someone who practiced homosexual sex. As Paul made it clear that even homosexual desire is a sin, Paul also had no such desire.

    “Scholars cannot even agree on who wrote the Gospels or most of the Bible. ”

    The only one who do not agree are the ones who are not trusting God. The rest seem to have no difficulty knowing who wrote the Bible.

    “One thing we do know is that homosexuals existed long before ”

    We also know God made it clear that homosexual sex is a sin.

    “Jesus walked the earth and long after he died for all of us: black, white, yellow, brown, gay, straight, old, young, rich, poor, tall, short, female, or male. ”

    Finally, something you and I agree on.

    “my INTERPRETATION of the Bible is that God created everything and everyone and He did not make any mistakes.”

    God allows us to make our choices, and those choices affect us and others. The sins of the parents are visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation, meaning our choices affect our children and grandchildren. While God is perfect, our sin affects us and our descendants.

    “I understand where you are coming from.”
    So far, nothing you have written shows you do.

    ” Your belief compels you to take up the sword where Paul and the other early Christians left off all those centuries ago”

    No. My belief and my love compels me to try to get people to understand who God is, what God has done, and what God wants for us and fro us.

    “slavery is wrong (but is advocated in the Bible), ”

    Do not confuse regulation with advocation.

    “that women have undeniable rights just like men (sexism is advocated in the Bible)”

    Just because God said there are differences between men and women does not mean men or women are not of equal value or worth.

    ” and that horrible injustices like murder is wrong (also, advocated in the Bible).”

    Um.. no. God said to not murder – it would help if you read the Bible. There is a difference between stating what sinful people have done and what God wants done.

    ” I thank God and Jesus every day that I live in a time when you and me and everyone HAS THE RIGHT to think and live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. (Yeah, that is my INTERPRETATION)”

    I agree with you again. All of us deserve the right to live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. But He did not intend us to sin.

    “here is no where in the Bible that says that Jesus spoke out against homosexuals. ”

    If you think Christ is not God, and if you think God did not write the Bible, and if you think God did not say that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual sexual sin is a sexual sin and if you think that Christ did not speak out against sexual sin, then perhaps you are rigfht.

    “Just not true, my friend. So your title is a lie, and I do believe the 9th commandment of the 10 commandments is “Thou shalt not bear false witness..””

    But telling the truth is not speaking falsely against someone else.

    I want people to know that God loves them. But God is also Holy, Righteous and Just. God will judge us each on what we do. If we love Him, we will obey Him.

  20. Wow, defensive. Exactly what I would expect you to say. Good luck to you, in this life and the next. As for me, I’ll be the one playing racketball with the Lord.

    ps, I have read the Bible. Would you like for me to list where God orders innocent killings throughout the Book? Come on..

    pss, I am glad that you and your wife are happy together and have found love.

    psss, I know I am just feeding your small flame on this blog of yours. I have said what I have to say. Your INTERPRETATION does not equal my INTERPRETATION. I know where I stand with the Lord. Cheers.

  21. If I were defensive, I would not have bothered to approve your post. I would have just hit delete. I’ll be praising God in heaven.

    I’ve read the Bible too. Please, let me know of verses you think innocents have been killed?

    I pray you live a life of love and obedience to God. This is not necessarily what people consider to be love.

    God bless you!

  22. For those who believe it is impossible for a true homosexual to leave homosexuality behind, take a look at

    http://ricgator.wordpress.com/2007/03/14/lesbian-activist-set-free-in-christ/

  23. God bless you wb! You’re doing a good thing in the eyes of the Lord. You’re absolutely right about the interpretations of the bible. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore His word and their meanig never change. I think people fail to realise that the word is a spirt, not just a book. So, to truly understand the Word (which is actually God, going by John1) we have to be in the spirit. Different interpretations, and indeed misinterpretations, are a result of people reading the word with their brains and logic, instead of the spirit. GOD BLESS YOU SISTER. I’m a young man myself (I8) and it’s so nice to stumble across such things on the internet, as opposed to damaging websites, etc. Please e-mail me scriptures and stuff; that would be amazing!

  24. Hi erasmus! Thanks for the kind words. I’m a man of 45 years.

    Almost every post I’ve made on this blog has scripture. Feel free to read them all and comment or ask questions.

  25. Brilliant, thanks a lot! Sorry about the mistake! GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER.

  26. Hey wb! How’ve you been keeping? the world has changed in so many ways since we last spoke! I like being able to come back to a website with someone who has such a radically different opinion yet is happy to publish any and all questions! I put up a post on another thread on this site to some guy who was claiming that some advert with homosexual undertones be removed, i questioned how this would work given his country’s heavily trumpeted ‘freedom of speach’ and suggested the road that such a move would lead that country down. He didn’t approve the post!! Clearly didn’t have the conviction in his off the cuff remarks to let them stand up to scrutiny!!
    Anyhow, I think the stuff that has followed on from our conversation earlier has highlighted the point that every single person who has read the bible will have their own unique interpratation. I think that problem is prevalent in many parts of American life especially with regard to the right to bear arms.
    When i look at this issue, I feel that the consequences of every stand point has to be weighed. My point of view is one of self determination. I feel it is up to each person to investigate the world in which they live, religions, ethos’, philosophies and decide on their own standard of morality. I see your viewpoint then as one dictated by a book said to be the unquestionable word of god, a rigid set of rules written many thousands of years ago by, apparently, god.
    The consequence of my way of looking at life is for you to tell me!
    The consequence of your way is it takes no account of the fact that everyone is an individual, you state that as this book tells you, no one is born gay, but is merely misguided. I would say in a world where conjoined twins, genderless people and babies lacking full mental capacity are born then there is no way that everyone is not gay. And to tell these children that they are wrong and incorrect and can be fixed, when no matter how hard they try they still find themselves gay, leads to suicide. You, myself and even the medical community at large are currently ill equiped to tell an individual if they are gay or straight, and the only way I can see of dealing with the issue while avoiding needless deaths, is to encourage them to explore these issues and feelings and not to fill them with promises that they can be fixed when really, you don’t know.

  27. Hey Kyp! I was wondering where you went! :) Missed you.

    Thanks for the kind words. I’m not perfect, but I try to show God’s love to everyone here, and as long as the comments are not abusive or spam, I approve them.

    Yes, there are varying interpretations of what God has written – some from a perspective of someone who wants to do what they want, some from a perspective of someone who wants to feel better about something, some from a perspective of truly seeking God and His will, some from a perspective of people who want to put church teachings above what God has said, some from a perspective of someone who wants to put what God has said above what the church teaches, some from a perspective of selfishness (seeking power, authority, money, etc.), some from a perspective of wanting to purposefully distort what God has said. Even from people who truly believe in Christ and truly believe the Bible is God’s word, you will get differing interpretations. But its been my experience that most people who believe the Bible is the word of God will agree on most things, and, with the exception of a few issues, tend to disagree about I call process/procedure. Its been my experience that people who believe the Bible is the word of God, and who are seeking God and His righteousness, will agree on things that are plainly stated – particularly when it comes to what God has called sin.

    Its interesting that you brought up one area what I have not done a thorough study – the right to self-defense (which is assumed in the right the bear arms). I love marital arts and shooting guns – I used to do both before I became a Christian. Yet, I see that Christ has said to turn the other cheek, so I have not done either in a long time. I try to do what I believe God wants me to do, even in this area. I really ought to do a detailed study on this subject.

    I agree with the idea that we each need to investigate all the possibilities to find the truth – particularly when it comes our souls. In case you didn’t know I used to be Wiccan, before I accepted Christ as the Savior sent by god to suffer and die for our sins. So I did not lightly accept what people claimed as truth either. But once I DID become dedicated to God, I began to live life as though the Bible is the manual for how to live life – even if it took a while for God to convince me He wrote the word of God.

    I have no idea what the consequences of looking at life the way you do are or will be for you – other than to say I know what the eternal consequences will be.

    Truly, the only problem I see with your idea of each person should decide his own standard for morality is that it ultimately leads to chaos and destruction. I say this because there is no basis for creating such standards. As such, each person gets to decide what they consider to be right and wrong. And while at first people will generally agree on those things – particularly if they have been influenced by Christianity, over time and generations, the standards for morality will slide down hill. After sufficient time of each person deciding for themselves what is right and wrong, eventually people begin to think of others as a tool or mechanism and means of getting what they want, or as something that is preventing them from getting or doing what they desire. This in turn leads to people hurting others, sometimes to the point of death. This is how we get abortion and euthanasia. Ever see the movie Logan’s Run? This movie was basically a story about how people got to do basically what they wanted until it was time for them to “reach Nirvana” – when they hit 30 (or so), they were killed. I prefer to do things God’s way, which honors Him and His creation – including people (whether I like them or not, agree with them or not).

    I realize everyone is an individual. I know that God works with people as they are and where they are. But His work is that you might believe (John 6:29). He works in us to to want and do His will (Philippians 2:13). This does not mean each of us are not different – for we are each VERY different. We each have different desires, fears, goals, bodies, needs, walks of life, etc. But just because we are different does not mean God loves us any less or any differently.

    I do not think I have ever said that people are not born homosexual. I kinda doubt it, but its certainly within the realm of possibilities. But I know that if they are, it is either because of the consequences of the sin of their ancestors (Deuteronomy 5:9) or because God wants to show His grace, love, and power in their lives to set them free from it. God uses everything, good and bad, to give us the chance to come to Him ( http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/how-could-bad-things-bring-us-closer-to-god/ ). no one is better or worse than others – in fact people who suffer are not better or worse than others (Luke 13:1-5). Sometimes things happen to people not because of sin but to show the power of God in their lives (John 9:1-4). God even decides where we will live so we might find Him (Acts 17:26-27).

    The thing is, people tell others they are bad people because they sin. This is not what God said. Its a mistake to tell people they are sick or evil or wrong because of their desires. But this does not mean those desires are healthy or good or even acceptable. God said EVERYONE is a sinner, we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). God CAN heal everything – but sometimes He doesn’t. Regardless, He still demands love expressed through obedience (1 John 5:3). He loves us so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die for us so that who ever believes can have eternal life with Him (John 3:16-18).

  28. As for me, I’ll be the one playing racketball with the Lord.,? do you really think so? that is like I hear some say, I’ll see you in Hell ,and we will party down! I don’t think so! Wake up. before it is too late,,, God does NOT change,Let go of sin and live Holy!

  29. Can I just say that after following the postings between wbmoore and Kryp that it is so refreshing to see two people who disagree on such an important topic discussing it in such an open, honest and respectful manner.

    Just more proof that charity never faileth. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

    • Thanks, JF. Kryp has been very respectful and I appreciate that. He also has a keen intellect and uses it, which is also much appreciated.

  30. Hey wb,
    hope your keeping well, I hope you don’t mind if I’m starting to think of you as an old friend-I had a smile on my face as I logged on, looking forward to reading our past discussions! =]
    Thanks JF, I feel lucky to have landed on to wb’s site, these sort of discussions so often seem to become about peoples ego’s, semantics and trying to change the other persons mind. Wb has a real knowledge of his subject and has created a lovely place where people can work to understand each other rather than fight for conversational superiority!!
    I’ve had to accept the unliklihood that I’ll have the time I had when I first came here to study the bible, my business now takes up almost all my spare time and untill I can do that full time it’s just gogogo! It’s exhilerating, but it’s also reassuring to live in a country where I will likely get older, and get the chance to succeed and then slow things down again.
    I think on the subject that started this conversation, I’ve become resolved. If you are a true believer in christ and god, and if you follow the words of the bible, you should not practice homosexual sex. That is not to say a person is not homosexual, but that if you truelly believe in gods design (I do not), your place in that design is to practice abstinence. What are your thoughts there? I think you’ll say that you don’t believe god makes people homosexual, and i think that will be our fundamental , irresolvable difference.
    I’ve learned something very important lately, about the difference between my way of thinking and that of christianity. Christianity will present the bible, and the word of god, as a way to live your life, the answer to where we come from and the answer to where we go after death. All the answers in a neat little package! I myself, cannot be convinced even slightly, that it’s that simple. That life’s infinite complexity, the mysteries of space, the secrets of DNA and the genome, can just be explained away with one word GOD. (I’m really leveling this accusation at the creationist school of thought, which to be fair I’m assuming you’re in, correct me if I’m wrong.) I look up at the nights sky, and see an infinite universe, where did it come from? whats our place in it? who else is out there? I just need to look outside and I can see a rich world of questions which in my lifetime will never be answered- sure, science will come up with theories, and I’ll eat them up and say ‘Wow, that’s an amazing idea.’ but the joy of science is that it’s an ever evolving theory, it’ll never really have any answers untill we’ve reached the end of everything. One of my fundamental driving powers is a realisation that I came to after much soul searching, that is that neither I, nor anyone else in this life knows the answers to those fundamental questions and once you get over the initial fear of not pretending to know anymore, you can embrace the true richness of life, the truth that there is nothing but questions.
    I think this forms a part of a larger social construct, the idea that there are absolute answers to anything in life.
    Can you explain faith to me? I’m probably asking you to pick apart something that to you is fundamental and unquantifiable, but it seems to be one of the many dead ends at which these sort of discussions end
    e.g.-‘But how do you know the bible is written by god’ ‘I have faith’
    Is faith some sort of deep knowledge of the existence of god that for whatever reason I lack? I’ve looked deep in myself, at the world, to people I love (my mother is a creationist), in the bible. I haven’t seen anything, anywhere that would make me believe anything other than-nobody really knows.
    I guess I’ll leave it at that for a while, please let me know if you’ll be moving our part of this discussion, as we seem to have moved on from this page’s topic.
    I’m really looking forward to hearing back, I’ll try to make more time to come on here, you know we’ve nearly been discussing these issues for a year now! Hopefully someday we’ll have been having this debate for years.
    take care =]

    • Hi Kyp!

      I’m glad your work is going well. Its much better to have an abundance than a scarcity, when it comes to work at least.

      I also enjoy our conversations and look forward to your return. :) You have a good mind and ask good questions. And thanks again for the compliments. I find it distasteful when I post on someone’s blog and they do not choose to aire the comment, even though it was respectful. So as long as someone is not being purposefully rude and combative (or spamming), I generally will approve most any comment.

      You wrote, “If you are a true believer in christ and god, and if you follow the words of the bible, you should not practice homosexual sex.”

      I agree with this statement. Those ARE important caveats to the statement, however. One that many can not accept – there are plenty of people who calim love of God and Christ, yet live a life of willfulness. This seems to me to be a contradiction. I’m not saying we wont have our faults, failures, and mistakes (indeed, even occassionally choose to do what we know we should not do), but I think we should have a consistent pattern of growth towards godliness and personal holiness – growth towards becomming more like Christ – full of love for God and others, obedience towards God, a true concern for the well-being of others, and a desire to have others choose God over anything or anyone else.

      You went on, “That is not to say a person is not homosexual, but that if you truelly believe in gods design (I do not), your place in that design is to practice abstinence. ”

      I would agree – if someone claims love for God and Chirst and follows the Bible, one will remain sexually abstinent unless married to someone of the opposite gender.

      “What are your thoughts there? I think you’ll say that you don’t believe god makes people homosexual, and i think that will be our fundamental , irresolvable difference.”

      Actually, I’ve written elsewhere that I think it is possible that God either DID create (or allowed the creation of) some people who do not follow the pattern of “normal” physical, mental, emotional, and/or spiritual development. Ie. I think it is possible God creates (or allows to be born) some people with homosexual trendencies. I’m not sure I would say that anyone is born with sexual drive in them or not (it certainly does not manifest itself until later life). Perhaps we could say that people are born with the seeds of a sexual drive? I’m not sure how I would define that, really. Apparently neither are social or medical scientists, as no one has been able to say what factors into the development of sexual interest as a whole.

      But having said that its possible God creates (or depending on your understanding of how things work, God allows people to be created – personally, I think Scripture says God creates us in our mothers’ womb, but I didn’t want to argue this point at the moment, which is why I left it open), I have to say that if He does so, I do not think it is to punish or condemn people to a painful or empty life. I think God allows people to be born with certain traits so as to be able to help them and people in their lives and to show His mercy. I say this because of the scene in John 9 where a man who was born blind was healed by Jesus, after Jesus had been asked, “who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus responded, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”

      God wants us to see. Its evident this was related as a means of relating the problem of spiritual blindness many people seem to have at one time or another in thier lives (myself included). It is trite to say, but God works in ways (and with timing) we can not understand. But we know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). So I have to believe that God allows some to be born imperfectly (when compared to what is traditionally considered normal), so that He can work in their lives and the lives of those around those persons in particular ways. But He does so as part of a plan where people will come to believe.

      You wrote, ” Christianity will present the bible, and the word of god, as a way to live your life, the answer to where we come from and the answer to where we go after death. All the answers in a neat little package! ”

      I’m not sure I would go so far as to say a neat little package. There are still many unknowns, particularly details on how. The Bible is not very in depth when it comes to HOW God works. It merely shows that He did, does, and will, work to bring about His purpose. But I think you are rght in saying the Bible tells us what God has done, and how we should live our lives, something of what will happen in the future (particularly life after death). I just dont think it provides all that many details on the how.

      You went on, “I myself, cannot be convinced even slightly, that it’s that simple. That life’s infinite complexity, the mysteries of space, the secrets of DNA and the genome, can just be explained away with one word GOD.”

      See, the problem is you seem to have a small view of God and an inaccurate one of the Bible. In my view, God is immense and powerful (among other things), and the Bible tells us something of what has happened, and something of what will happen, and a lot of how we should live our lives (morality). But the details are often missing on how things have or will occur. It is those details that science and archealogy are ferreting out.

      You wrote, “(I’m really leveling this accusation at the creationist school of thought, which to be fair I’m assuming you’re in, correct me if I’m wrong.)”

      You are correct, I am a creationist.

      You wrote, “I look up at the nights sky, and see an infinite universe, where did it come from? whats our place in it? who else is out there? ”

      These are questions each of us ask ourselves at one time or another, I think. Unlike some, I do not think the Bible speaks to the existence of others out there one way or another, and I think it is myopic for people to think just because others are not mentioned directly in the Bible, that they therefore can not exist.

      You wrote, “I just need to look outside and I can see a rich world of questions which in my lifetime will never be answered- sure, science will come up with theories, and I’ll eat them up and say ‘Wow, that’s an amazing idea.’ but the joy of science is that it’s an ever evolving theory, it’ll never really have any answers untill we’ve reached the end of everything.”

      I so agree with you on this! Science is a wonderful way to provide answers to how – in detail. But as our knowledge evolves, so do the answers provided by science. But it seems to me that the how is not really dealt with very much in the Bible. We are told God created, breathed, everything into existence, but we are not told the where and how-tos of such.

      You wrote, “One of my fundamental driving powers is a realisation that I came to after much soul searching, that is that neither I, nor anyone else in this life knows the answers to those fundamental questions and once you get over the initial fear of not pretending to know anymore, you can embrace the true richness of life, the truth that there is nothing but questions.”

      See, I have no problem admitting (to myself at least, *grin*) that I do not have all the answers. I love the questions. I love to see people enjoy themselves discovering answers, as much as I enjoy discovering answers to the questions I have.

      You wrote, “I think this forms a part of a larger social construct, the idea that there are absolute answers to anything in life.”

      Well, see, I think there ARE absolute answers to at least some things in life. It is either day time where you are or it is not. You are either physically breathing or not. I think the same things can be said about morality. For instance, it is a common moral “law” for people across time and culture and language to say stealing from people is wrong – for some, people means their tribe, or their family, or hunity at large, but the basic foundational moral law remains constant. I think the difference in definition is because we have yet to sufficiently study the moral laws of the universe, but as science moves into that area (and it has begun), these will be discovered, just as physical laws have and are being discovered.

      You wrote, “Can you explain faith to me? I’m probably asking you to pick apart something that to you is fundamental and unquantifiable, but it seems to be one of the many dead ends at which these sort of discussions end
      e.g.-’But how do you know the bible is written by god’ ‘I have faith’ Is faith some sort of deep knowledge of the existence of god that for whatever reason I lack? ”

      Faith is a difficult thing to define. I think the best way for me to describe it would be that it is a belief that you hold strongly enough to the point where it changes you to act upon it. For instance, you have faith a chair will hold you up when you sit down in it, even though you may have never sat in said chair before. It may be based upon knowledge gained by taking a chance (experimenting) with a lightly held belief. As your experiments succeed, your belief is confirmed and your knowledge and faith (not the same thing) both grow. I think its much like the development of a scientific theorem. You make a guess (or someone suggests something), you try it out, and you adjust based upon your results.

      You wrote, “I’ve looked deep in myself, at the world, to people I love (my mother is a creationist), in the bible. I haven’t seen anything, anywhere that would make me believe anything other than-nobody really knows.”

      I think God knows, and I think God wants us to know at least certain things at certain times. For this reason (among others), God has provided us the Bible, as well as sends visions, dreams and (I believe) visitations by angels.

      You wrote, “I guess I’ll leave it at that for a while, please let me know if you’ll be moving our part of this discussion, as we seem to have moved on from this page’s topic.”

      I will probably do that, as this is an interesting topic by itself. When I do, I’ll leave a note on here or email you.

      “I’m really looking forward to hearing back, I’ll try to make more time to come on here, you know we’ve nearly been discussing these issues for a year now! Hopefully someday we’ll have been having this debate for years.”

      I enjoy it, so I look forward to it. Thanks.

  31. You always think of the best stuff after submitting! -sorry.
    I was just thinking that the bible as it’s originally written, was firstly in a different language, hebrew maybe? And was also much longer than the version you pick up inyour local bookshop. To actually understand the bible would you not be required to learn the original language, in depth, then read the complete, unabridged collection of books? Hmmmm, maybe this leg of the conversation isn’t done yet! =]

    • Yes, it was in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (depending on which parts you are discussing).

      The Old Testament and the New Testament contain books (or scrolls or manuscripts) that have universally been agreed upon (by people who believe in God and Christ, etc) to have been written by God through men. There ARE other manuscripts that provide some historical or possibly spiritual information that some believe are also by God, but have not been widely accepted as such.

      Translations are a good starting point, with the use of lexicons and dictionaries and commentaries, for study. But the best would be to read the texts in their original languages. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown an amazing degree of accuracy of the manuscript copies we currently have when compared to what was available at the time of Christ. And our translations are amazingly accurate as well. But the problem with translations is that there can multiple ways of saying the same thing, and sometimes cultural differences will cause a saying to mean something different than the literal translation of said saying. For instance, a “cup o joe” means a cup of coffee, but unless you are familiar with the culture, you might miss the actual meaning of the saying. This is why it is important to study the Bible in its historical, cultural, grammatical context.

  32. Well, said, Wb. I have enjoyed reading the conversation.

  33. Hey WB,
    I read you were under the weather recently, hope you’re feeling better.
    So, we have arrived at a sort of agreement between us on what our personal feelings and beliefs on homosexuality are and where they come from in our belief system. But is there any way to transfer this amicable grass roots acceptance of each other to the wider world? Would it do any good? Is the make up of individuals and society such that this will always be a conflict between homosexuals and evangelists?

    Inherently, evangelism (encouraged by the bible) must take me aside, and explain my errors in the eyes of god.
    For my part, I am a person who loves every second of every facet of my life. I work very hard; both for my employer and in the setting up of my own business, earn a good wage, go mountain climbing and skydiving and engage heavily in charity work. I have many friends who I love dearly and hundreds of close acquaintances. My life is far from perfect but I love and embrace every second of it. This limitless joy of existence is lived without believing in god, without believing the bible and without any sort of belief in an afterlife. in fact I actively call on people to question their faith and encourage the idea that this ‘faith’ may simply be (among other things) an emotional crutch for dealing with terrible personal loss or pain inflicted on them by others or by life’s random and unsafe nature.
    That is to say, we both have our beliefs and feel the need to share them, with the intention of…(I don’t want to use the word ‘convert’) making the other aware that we are correct.

    So, after the beliefs are shared, what’s the next step? I would find myself at a point where I can say ‘live and let live’. We can discuss the nature of the world and the universe untill the end of our days, and it doesn’t need to bother me that you don’t subscribe to my belief system, we’ll both pass away, and there we’ll find our answers. Unfortunately for you, your faith has told you that it’s your duty to make me understand the word of god, you can’t just say ‘live and let live’ because to do so would risk condemning me to hell (or whatever is suppossed to happen!).
    Do we just come back to the issue of ‘absolute answers’ and say that we must debate for all of time, each of us trying to make the other subscribe to their beliefs? Thats a bit depressing…

    On absolute answers: Sorry I wasn’t clear in that, when I said there are no absolute answers I meant in reference to more abstract concepts that can’t be empirically tested. Of course you can look around and even measure the absence of light with a photocell and refernece that to the time of day from a clock to conclude that it is indeed ‘night’. But rather I reffered to the ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Who am I?’ questions that I believe are not to be answered over the course of our lives. Even if they could be, I don’t think I’d want to know. If I found out I was going to live in a blissful heaven, then I wouldn’t know what it’s like to fall through the air at 120 miles an hour, or to gaze at the surrounding plains from a mountain peak. I would be too busy spreading the word of god and awaiting my reward in the next life. That not only takes away some of the most philosophical and truelly authentic experiences of my life, thereby lessening my experience. It also means that if we got it wrong, and the bible was in fact written by man, I would have wasted the one and only life I will get.
    [Please note, I’m not saying that is the way those who believe the word of god live, I’m saying it is likely how I would live as a believer, based on my personality and approach to life].

    With regard to faith, could you assign me a ‘faith experiment’ to try? You did mention one may need a lightly held belief to attempt one, wheras I merely have an openess to possibility, so it may be a waste of time.

    With regard to gods knowledge of whats going on, I cannot accept that the bible is his word, I would say the middle step of God to man to bible completely negates any infallibility as man is flawed and cannot be trusted as the author of gods word. So I’ll have to await a vision, dream or visit from an angel. Who knows what the future will hold!

    What is your view on Christians who believe in Christ and god, but believe the Old Testament to be a collection of parables, full of metaphors and open to interpretation?

    a pleasure as always, look forward to hearing from you =]
    hope you keep well

    • Hi Kyp.

      Yes, I’ve had some rather large kidney stones the medicos felt they needed to remove and/or pulverize. Apparently the place I live has twice the national average for people developing kidney stones – possibly the diet or the humidity of the area. They are not sure which. Unfortunately, they apparently still need to do it once more. I hate how the medicine affects me. But I believe there is a reason for it and that I simply have to wait to discover the fuller meaning of it all. :) Thanks for the well wishes.

      Hmm… transferring an amicable understanding of our individual positions concerning homosexuality (or anything God has said not to do) and God to the wider world would do nothing but make the world a better place, I believe. I think there HAS to acceptance by people on both sides of any given issue for there to be any hope of peace in the world. Of course, I am not speaking of those issues which more obviously harm society, such as purposefully harming someone else, but of the other things God has said to not do. I DO think there will always be a conflict at some level between people with differently held beliefs (such is the case with any disagreement), but I don’t think it must be an unamicable one.

      I think part of evangelism is helping people become aware of the existence of God and the need people have for or of Him. Part of that entails pointing out where people do not line up with what God has said. This is not restricted to desires and actions in the sexual area of life, but in all areas. We are merely speaking of homosexuality in this dialog because it happened to be the topic that attracted you to my blog. But for me, the same issues are involved in other areas of life: addiction, abuse, selfishness, etc. I see my role as an evangelist being one where I am present in the lives of people and share my thoughts on the issues of life and God.

      That being the case, I am in conflict (on a mild level) with people even within the larger ‘church’. I say this because there are many in the church who do not live as God would have us live. This does not mean I am free to pass judgement on a person – God created us all and loves us all. I AM, however, called to point out what God has said and let people make up their own minds on whether they will accept what God has said and will on whether they are prepared to step up and make changes in their lives in that area that would bring them more in line with what God has said. None of us are perfect, and that is why I say ‘more in line’, rather than simply ‘become who God wants them to become’.

      I think the role of each of us is to become who God wants us to become. But its a process that will not be complete in this life, I don’t believe. But, we can become kinder, more loving, more patient, more forgiving, more self-sacrificial, more obedient to God. This is what will make us better people in this world, but also make us more in line with what God has said.

      You are mistaken that I can not ‘live and let live’. I can. Its a choice. But you are correct in saying I should work to help you (anyone) accept what God has said and done because I love God and people and do not want to see them making the wrong choice in what I consider to be the ultimate question. But I have people in my life I love dearly who are in no way prepared to make what I would consider to be the right decision. This does not mean I have nothing to do with them. It simply means I pray for them and hope for the best when I am given the freedom to share the love of God with them in ways they will find beneficial.

      But letting people live the life they choose to live is an essential part of who I am. No one can try force some one to make a truly lasting choice on something of this import and expect any sort of positive internal change. And being judgemental does not help either, as we then lose our ‘right’ to share God’s love with the very people we want to agree with us. This is something many truly well meaning people miss – on both sides. People MUST learn to differentiate between what a person does and who the person is. Unfortunately, many of us feel everyone simply MUST believe as we do in the areas of life we consider to be important or they are bad people or unintelligent or fill_in_the_blank. This is an attitude idealistic youth have, but which we must move beyond if there is to be any hope of peacable disagreement and discussion.

      Unfortunately, I must go to work right now. But I’ll try to finish more on this topic in a bit.

      I appreciate YOUR patience with me as we discuss this.

  34. hey wb..here’s my five cents worth..hot and heated topic,homosexuality and any form of sexual sin..and many are the opinions ..I find most arguements are centered around the letter of the law verses the grace of God,and repentance is always emphasized in every discussion on these topics..but one thing I find missing in most such conversations/discussions/arguements/disagreements is the POWER of God, you know the miraculous power that causes the blind to see in an instant,the lame to walk,the food to multiply,the water to change to good wine type of power…not your average intellectual power of “I have read more than you”,or your financial power,or political power or even military power. I wonder what would happen to any sinner who walks into a church that actually operated with consistant sustainable miraculous power on a daily basis..oops..I forgot ..such a church no longer exist. I mean when was the last time you personally saw a blind man see,a lame man walk ,a deaf person hear at your local church of Jesus Christ?Perhaps if christians has miraculous power as well as the love,faith,peace and message..the homosexuals would find themselves changed like water to good wine by the glory of God..and with that same power they might find themselves able to master the sins that crouch at all all our doors.But than,we are so fearful of the power of signs ,wonders and miracles that we are all convinced that anyone who speaks about them much less does them must be a false prophet.The answer to homosexuality?..same answer for all sin..faith in Jesus Christ,through whom all sins are forgiven those who repent and POWER is given to sustain them..power ..real Holy Spirit power, not talk..for the Kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of POWER.Power to drive out those demons that possess and decieve them,and power to heal them from the abuse,hurts and rejections and power to keep them healed and free,power for them to be witnesses of Jesus..not just believers.As i said, I find that one word is always missing in such conversations..POWER.Check your blog above and see if that word is there.Dr.Ed.Good to see me mate poly is blogging on,I was concerned when he disappeared from word press.

  35. Kyp,

    Sorry its taken so long for me to get back to this. Picking up where I left off, I don’t think we must FORCE anyone to believe anything. As I wrote earlier, that will not cause actual internal change, just external acquiescence.

    As for abosolute answers in things that can not be tested, such as ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Who am I?’, I think there ARE absolute answers in these areas. I think the Bible has clear answers for these sorts of questions. But for one to accept them, one must first believe that God exists and is powerful enough and loving enough, and caring enough, to write a series of letters to teach people who He is, what He has done, what He expects for us and from us, and what He WILL do, and how humans have, do, and will, respond.

    But I think we CAN respond to God’s call AND live lives that allow us to enjoy things in life. God uses our experiences in our future to His purposes. Some of us will be bikers for Christ. Only some are called to be pastors or missionaries. Others will be sky divers for Christ. Others will be scuba divers for Christ. Others will be rodeo cowboys for Christ. Others will be computers programmers, teachers, doctors, policemen, firemen, etc. – all for Christ. We do those things AND share the truth of God AND look forward to being with Christ in eternal life. If we’re wrong, we still live lives full of hope. If we’re right, then we go to be with Christ in heaven. I don’t see how one can lose with those facts, given that I have walked life with God and life WITH God. I find life with God much better – even if I have difficulty in life.

    As for a faith experiment, I’m afraid I can not assign one to you. For me, I was in a difficult time and asked God to show me if Christ was really His Son and the only way to be with Him. He managed to show me and tell me at the same time. I can’t tell you what will cause you to be able to believe, except to say it will not happen before God decides for it to happen, and as Edmond wrote, it takes the power of God. Without God moving in you, you can not respond. If you want it, or you want evidence of God, ask Him.

    You wrote, “I would say the middle step of God to man to bible completely negates any infallibility as man is flawed and cannot be trusted as the author of gods word.”

    I would have to say that you then have a small view of God. Let me ask you, is it possible for a computer program to do exactly what it is supposed to do? Man is flawed, and yet can create beautiful works of art and machinery (like robots) that do exactly what they are supposed to do. I’m not saying every robot is perfect, as they break down, and humans must repair them and sometimes address errors in design or execution of the design. But if man can create robots which perform much of the work in assembling a car, or a machine which performs electric shock on someone in cardiac arrest, then God, who is SOOoooo much greater than man, can certainly create men who will write what HE wanted written when HE wants it written.

    While the human authors were all different, had different cultures, different experiences, lived in different places, spoke different languages, had different occupations, addressed different issues and different audiences at different times, the message of the Bible is a complete message. God used men to write the message HE wanted communicated, using men to accomplish what HE wanted to accomplish.

    you wrote, “What is your view on Christians who believe in Christ and god, but believe the Old Testament to be a collection of parables, full of metaphors and open to interpretation?”

    I think it would be different for each person. At best, they have little faith in God. In some cases, people purposefully ignore data. In other cases, they want to paint God as inept or powerless. In other cases, they have difficulty believing God is powerful enough or loving enough to write In still other cases, they want to try to make the BIble say something it does not, and in order to do so, they much change its meaning – so they have to turn it into metaphors and analogies or mythology. But the thing is, archeology and historians have shown much of the places, cultures, and people written of in the Bible existed. Given that God is powerful enough to create a universe (regardless of how you think He did so), then what makes Him so powerless that He can’t accurately relay what He wants communicated across time and space and culture and language?

  36. Hi Edmond,

    I agree with you: it is the power of God which enables one to turn from sin and to God. Sometimes He does it all at once, and sometimes over a period of time, and sometimes in stages. I was delivered from a life long smoking addiction, long after turning to God. God can heal or speak to people or speak through people even today – whether it is for guidance or warning in a current situation or to tell about what will come. I know from personal experience. I firmly believe all the spiritual gifts written of in the Bible are in use in God’s Church today. I’m not so convinced every local congregation will have, or even need, every spiritual gift.

  37. Hey WB,
    I was woried about you, great to see you back though- I didn’t think you were ok!!
    I like to think that i have the same difficulties in life, but WB, how can you attribute all this to a guy you read about in a scroll from a cave? I’m sorry but it seems so sad. I have written many stories- fact, fiction, fantasy fiction. What if my little stories were found in a thousand years and silly people of the time thought they were based on fact? Not only would i be very embarassed, they’d be believing a lie. It’s just words, from a cave, just because some of the information is historically accurate doesn’t make them fact- it just means they were written at that time.
    I think by saying ” Big mysterious power make all things” you are losing out on an immense amount of the natural beauty of the iniverse-both in the natural world and in how people treat each other.

    Take the Mormon faith as an example. Most mormons I talk to claim to believe it’s teachings, but really they love the life it gives them, a wholesome life, based around family. These are good tenants, but please, stop saying you know what happens after death, because you don’t. The christians don’t, the atheists don’t, the buddhists don’t, the mormons don’t, no-one does, and saying you do doesn’t give you the right to exert your will over people, it makes you a small minded idiot, who thinks that removing a persons free will makes you better than them. Why do people belive stupid things like “Heaven”, “Reincarnation” “jihad”? It’s beyond silly, it’s so dangerous, and kills so many people. WB, the world is so terrible because of this stuff, it’s some scolls, we found in a cave! Can you please just not see sense and live a life based around respect for individuals and personal responsibility- because the world this will build will be so great, and so righteous. -Kryp

  38. allow me to clarify that large jump- christians, atheists, buddhists, mormons, muslims and pretty much all organised religions say that they know what happens when you die, and possesion of such unearthly power, gives them power over the individual. To hold such answers is godly…isn’t it?

    • Hi Kryp!

      Thanks for your concern. I’m back, but not back. I’m just beginning to read again, but don’t feel led to create new posts as of yet. Lots going in my life outside of here.

      I think we all face many of the same problems in life, although some will be specific to the culture in which we live.

      I attribute the answers God has provided to a God who is loving enough to interact with His creation, and powerful enough to ensure the message He wants transmitted is what is written an maintained through out time. You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. but the difference is in what do you place your faith? I place my faith in a God who has made it clear to me that He exists and that He wants to interact with me in a relationship – part of which includes a collection of manuscripts He has chosen to have written and maintained across time and culture and language. You choose to place your faith in man and his uncertain interpretation of events (ask two people to describe an event, and you will get different descriptions). God has maintained a consistent message across thousands of years and 40 human writers. Man keeps changing his message – regardless of the topic. God’s message shows a unity of message and a consistency that is surprising to even those who study such things. You question the historicity and accuracy of the Bible, but it has been shown time and again to be accurate.

      I think secular scientists say the same thing as a mysterious power made things when they claim everything began with the big bang and formed across time following natural laws they still do not thoroughly understand – and in some cases distort or ignore data which refutes their suppositions and explanations. Some well known secular scientists would rather believe the earth was populated by unknown aliens, than believe God formed them, and yet have no explanation for where THOSE beings came from or how they were originally formed. None of us have knowledge we do not have (yes :) I said it the way I meant it).

      But we each have faith. We each have knowledge we have either been shown or discovered. Some of it has been substantiated by others and some of it has not. Sometimes scientists believe they have THE explanation for something, and only later find they were mistaken. This is often the case when we interpret data. The Bible is a history of interaction between God and man, through the eyes of one tribe. The thing is, the scrolls that make up the Bible were NOT simply discovered in a cave. Men wrote the message God intended them to write. In some cases, the message was kept in a temple; in others cases, by people fleeing persecution; in most cases, they were never out of the possession of people who passed them on to others. In one case, a scroll was found in what used to be the temple of God. People died to get the message out. Does that automatically make it right – no. But it does lend credence to the idea these things should be studied. Sometimes we set out to investigate something in order to refute it before we believe in it. Sometimes God simply gives simple faith to believe. Sometimes God substantiates what He had written in other ways.

      But the thing is, those who truly believe in, and obey, the God of the Bible do not live lives that make the lives of others more difficult. Men use religion, and I include science in the category of religion, to make themselves feel better or to control others or to better their positions. But faithful men use religion to better who they are and the lives of those around them. But true Christians share the love they have for and from God with others in a lifestyle of servanthood. We pray God will enlighten others. But we do not force our beliefs on others. In my opinion, only misguided people try to force anything.

      As for life after death, many different groups of people have many different ideas concerning it. To my knowledge, only one person (Jesus the Christ) has come back after dying to remind us of what He taught. Why do people believe things like black holes? Its because they have evidence which convinces them of that description of a phenomena which can now begin to be studied. I have experience with spiritual beings – the Bible mentions some of these beings. I don’t tend to believe in a theory without some evidence to back it up. Do I have evidence of heaven? – no. But I DO have evidence of spiritual beings speaking to me, giving me signs, helping me out of impossible situations. This evidence substantiates what I have read in the Bible – including life after death. I have known people who had a relationship with Jesus and died. Theirs was a peaceful death, and in many cases, they were smiling and speaking with someone as they passed away. On the other hand, many who had died without such a relationship have passed away screaming at something(s) to keep away from them. There IS evidence. one must simply investigate it.

      I don’t know what you are speaking about concerning someone exerting their will upon others. I don’t know if you were calling me a small minded idiot or claiming I am removing someone’s free will, or not. But I don’t think I do either. If I have, please inform me, because I don’t want to impose. However, by the same token, everyones’ so called rights do not give them the right to impose their free will upon me either. I believe we must respect each other and be responsible for our choices and actions. I don’t believe anyone is any better or any worse than anyone else. I DO have judgements of right and wrong, some of which is based upon what the Bible teaches, and some of it is not. But I think God has made it clear we have all free will, which He maintains while also maintaining His sovereignty and the ability to have a perfect plan that includes every decision we will ever make – including whether to believe in Him or not, including whether to love Him or not, including whether to obey Him or not.

      Christians stopped slavery in England, and still strive to stop it worldwide. Christians have built and maintained hospitals and schools and orphanages across the world – with no hope or desire for profit, simply out of love for God and others.

      As for killing, more people have been killed in the name of racial cleansing and governmental control than in the name of religion. Consider Germany, China, North Korea, and Russia to name a few. Religion was not the driving factor in any of those places when the marxists, socialists, communists (depending upon which region and time we are speaking) chose to murder and/or imprison millions upon millions. People without God are not the answer. They tend to do bad things. People with religion will sometimes do better things (as will some people without religion). But people with God as their driving force (not those who simply claim such, but those who truly have Him), make lives better.

      The thing with claiming man without God will make this place a righteous and great place is that men change what they consider to be righteous over time and in different cultures. Even within the same culture, some would consider it righteous to kill the unborn, handicapped, elderly, and sick. I myself find that atrocious, but that is because God has shown me how much He loves us. Before I became grounded in what God teaches, I believed similarly about at least one of those issues. People do not agree on right and wrong, so how could we agree on what is great and righteous? But God has said what is right and wrong, and HE does not change.

      As for claiming to know what happens when one dies, if that knowledge does not come from God, then yes, it would be considered ungodly. But if the knowledge comes from God, then by definition, it is godly.

  39. Kryp, I don’t want to impose over WB, but no one found these ‘stories’ 1000 years later, but belief has coexisted with them since they were written.

    We do know what happens after death, because we had One who came back to tell us! These are not ‘stupid things’ but tenants of life itself. (By the way, Jihad is a present war, not something to do with the afterlife).

    If people would follow Christianity, the world would be great and righteous, but they do not.

    To say what happens in the afterlife, does not give religion power over the individual. If no one chooses to follow Christianity, that is their problem. If they do, they do. Christianity is a community, when assembled correctly.

  40. Greetings all: Wb may the Lord strengthen you to stand as well as wisdom too sow! As for homosexuals being born that way, Gods word says we were born into iniquity. Each sinner “chooses” what sin they serve. Which is why Jesus said I came to SET the captives free. Freedom from sin is the result of being born again. As for kryp saying he looks to space and sees so much more. Gods word says the heavens declare His glory. Such amazing creation shouts I LoVe You! As a painting from a master paineter. No eye has scene nor ear has heard what God has in store for those who love :I’m. Gods mind is finite God is infinatent. For we see now but in a mirror but soon face to face. When God shall cleanse this earth for a new earth and new heaven where sin shall not be. Nor corruption, nor tears or pain. Men seek all these things now without Gods approval. For the ways of foolish man are vain to Gods plan. Its evident that man and man cannot be fruitful, as they couldn’t begindn human life nor could they sustain it as they can’t bear children. That’s evidence such ways is sinful against Gods purpose.Malachi 2:ww-16 speaks of godly offspring which can only happen in godly marriage Man and Women! God bless!

  41. That is Malachi 2:11-16. The word of God is rich and beyond reproach which is why hateufl man has never been able too defeat it. Its alive and active, transforming obediant believersM people scoff who choose not to repent and honor Gods truths. As Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and a strangers they shall not followM as a stranger will lead people on the broad road of destruction. On such a road everything is kosher but serving Gods truths!

    • Hi truthislove45,

      I think kryp is exploring the ability to have meaning conversation about many topics he might not have freedom to do so elsewhere. That is part of why this blog exists – to teach what God has said, and one of the characteristics of teaching is discussion. All topics and people are welcome, so long as no one sets out to purposefully offend.

      I love discussing the deeper meaning of things and possible manifestations and ramifications of thought/belief with kryp. He has a fine mind, asks good questions and makes good points – and is polite to boot! :) I believe he thinks I have a narrow mind about faith and God, but does not realize I have explored ‘no faith’ and ‘faith’. I have explored various religious ideas from different perspectives. I find God and the Bible makes the most sense.

  42. Hi Polycarp, I wasn’t presenting Jihad as something to do with the afterlife more as a fictitious construct given power by the belief of man, like money or ‘celebrity status’.
    I can understand that as well as being found in caves the stories were also passed down from generation to generation, this does nothing to convince me of their
    unbiased, unconditional accuracy in every detail.
    You are right when you say that if everyone was christian the world would be great and righteous. This can also be said for islam, buddhism, atheism, and my own ‘no
    requirement for faith’. If everyone thought and believed the same things the world would truelly be great and righteous.

    Hey WB, hope you’re well and truelly on the mend. I’m sorry I haven’t been around more, I’ve really been enjoying life so much lately discovering new hobbies, people and music I haven’t spent much time on the internet!

    First of all I don’t think you can call science a religion. Religion is a set list of doctrines and beliefs based on faith and geographical location. Science is a constantly evolving set of rules that have been empirically proven to the best of our current ability

    I agree that only misguided people try to force anything the only way for peaceful co-existance on this planet is for us to try to respect and try to learn from each others beliefs.

    In the bible who saw jesus rise from the dead?

    I’m very interested when you mention experience with supernatural beings- are you in a position to elaborate?

    I have seen two people die, both had a loose belief in god and died doped up on morphine. I have some theories here but I could not base a debate like this on my theories, I’ll have to bow to your experience and simply say: Let’s see what mine will bring.

    When I mentioned people exerting their will I was refering to things like baptism (conscription at birth), missions that give food to the hungry in exchange for belief in a god. Here in Ireland kids hold out for the communions and confirmations
    because they are huge sources of income from relatives and friends. These focus around the religion I have first hand experience of, there are ways in which all religions do this I’m just not completely familiar with them.
    I am certainly not calling you a small minded idiot, I apologise for the phrasing.
    I don’t agree with your views but I am impressed with how you express them and these discussions serve only to fuel my faith in mankind.
    The point was refering both at the structure of religious organisations and at specific individuals, examples ranging from Fred Phelps to Father Rizek,
    from the Cleric who sends naive kids out in bomb belts to become martyrs to any of the Priests here in Ireland who used their position to have sex with children. All these people claim to have answers to the unanswerable in life
    and this gives them power. We give this power to a broad group of people, many of whom do not abuse it, but I feel the harm done by those who do abuse it completely
    negates any good done by others.
    I would and will work to stop slavery. I intend to build hospitals, schools and orphanges across the world and have already built a self help community centre in Cambodia as part of an organisation I helped to found-with no hope for desire or profit, simply out of a love for others and a strong sense of what the right thing to do is.

    It’s not a defense to say that politcs kills more than religion, we’re not talking about politics here. Think Jihads and the Crusades.

    I appreciate your point about what is “righteous”. Firstly i’m going to substitute the word moral, the word righteous really gets to me, it conjurs images of those “holier than thou” self satisfied types who get up in your face and go on about how wrong you are! Somantics aside. I can’t think of an easy answer to this, but i believe there is one. Many cultures would appoint elders who will set the moral compass of a society without religious connotations, maybe something could be based around that
    but as i said there’s no answer but I have FAITH (…=]…) we could find one as a race.

    I would like your opinion on this matter as it’s become an issue here at the moment. The ever raging dispute about ‘gay marriage’ seems to revolve around the idea that marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. But civil partnership with different rights does not appeal to homosexuals. So why then does the state not surrender it’s involvement with the sacred instition of marriage, leave it to the church and assume responsiblity only for civil partnership between two individuals? I don’t see how it’s up to the state to decide who wants to commit themselves to each other, that is down to a persons religion and morals. Just a thought, I’d like to hear the arguments against.

    Thank you as always WB, I try to have conversations like these with many people but so many people will say things that they can’t back up with any actual knowledge or rigid faith, it’s refreshing have someone who can answer those questions.

    Truthislove taking such simple points as godly evidence does not bear out. You could simply say that homosexuality is birth control, one of god’s ways’ of stopping the worlds population from spiraling wildly out of control. I’m not saying I neccesarily believe that, it’s just illustrating a point.

  43. jen sure does not stand that pointing out sin is Love. if i let my friend keep on sinning with not ever pointing it out it is wrong is that really love?

  44. Hi Kryp. Sorry its taken me so long to repsond. I had intended to and life got in the way and I forgot. I appologize. I was not purposefully ignoring you.

    I hope everything is well with you this Christmas season.

    “I don’t think you can call science a religion. Religion is a set list of doctrines and beliefs based on faith and geographical location. Science is a constantly evolving set of rules that have been empirically proven to the best of our current ability”

    Well, yes and no. Science is supposed to be the study of something through observation, using certain principles. In practice, it has its beliefs, high priests and its required doctrines, and naturalism seems to be its god. If you disagree with the hgh priests and/or doctrines, then you get excommunicated and in some cases lose your reputation and/or jobs. So it strikes me as being quite like a religion.

    “In the bible who saw jesus rise from the dead?”

    The death and burial of Christ can be read in Matthew 27 (and Mark 15, Luke 23, John 19). The resurrection can be read in Matthew 28 (and Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20). Mary Magadelene and others saw an angel in the tomb after the resurrection who told them to tell the other disciples. The ladies went and told the other disciples, and Peter and John went and saw the tomb was empty. Then Mary saw Jesus. Jesus spoke with some of his disciples on the road to Emmaus where He shared from scripture what had been prophecied about Him. Later Jesus went to where the disciples were and spoke with them, showing them both His hands and His side. He ate with them. He also breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit. But Thomas was not there and did not believe it when the disciples told him. So Jesus returned a week later and showed Thomas. at which point he believed. The dsiciples also went to Galilee and met with Jesus there. At the end, Jesus ascended into heaven, with the disciples (including the 11) watching. So a lot of people saw Christ after He rose from the dead and before He ascended.

    “I’m very interested when you mention experience with supernatural beings- are you in a position to elaborate?”

    Well, I’ve had a spirit guide (which I now know was not) when I was a witch. I also had visions of what I took to be gods but I now know where not. I also have had the dead visit me as they passed from this world to the next (my grandfather came to say good bye after he had died, and I knew my cousin died as he did so). I’ve had what I can only think of as angels help me not be harmed in certain situations. But I can now look back and see God’s hand in guiding me the entire time, while others tried to move me away from Him.

    “When I mentioned people exerting their will I was refering to things like baptism (conscription at birth), missions that give food to the hungry in exchange for belief in a god. Here in Ireland kids hold out for the communions and confirmations because they are huge sources of income from relatives and friends. These focus around the religion I have first hand experience of, there are ways in which all religions do this I’m just not completely familiar with them.”

    That is man corrupting what God has said we are to do. Baptism should be a sign of the faith we are told is needed to have eternal life. Christians should help people with food, clothing, housing, etc, but not to coerce those being helped but because God loves us all. Having said that, I think that in the course of providing help, we are free to share what we believe – particularly when asked why we help.

    “We give this power to a broad group of people, many of whom do not abuse it, but I feel the harm done by those who do abuse it completely
    negates any good done by others.”

    I think God provides us answers to the “unknowable”, if we seek Him and ask. But I dont think we should use our influence to bring harm to others, regarldess of whether our influence is political, familial, or religious. There are plenty of people who abuse others just because they are familiar with them (brothers abuse younger brothers/sisters, parents abuse children, aunts/uncles abuse nephews/neices, etc.) – one does not have to be in a religion to be abused, and neither does being in one prevent you from being abused. People are people, we all make mistakes. I have never heard of someone who has abused others who him/herself was not abused earlier. Does this make it right? Of course not! But abuse damages people and their understanding of boundaires and right and wrong and their understanding of security and sexuality. As for what the few who harm people negating the good others do, I dont think so. I have an example to show what I mean: If a life guard abuses a child, does that negate or minimize the lives he or others have saved? I dont think so. I think its terrible to harm others, particularly children. But this does not say the good he (or others) have done is totally negated by the harm he has done. Priests, pastors, missionaries, nuns, elders, deacons, bishops, etc., all are human. They are to share the love of God and others, to show the way yo heaven (in that way, they are life guards). But sometimes people get involved where they have no business, and other times people just make mistakes. But the harm done by a few does not negate the wonderful things done by the majority. It simply means safeguards have to exist to protect everyone from people who have been hurt and who would hurt others.

    It sounds like you have a strong desire to help others, and that is wonderful. I’m glad to hear of your desire to help others. So many times people get so wrapped up in their own selfishness that they forget to love others in practical ways.

    I am not trying to justify any religion. My point was that no religion is perfect, since men are involved.The lack of God is a religion just as much as a belief in God. When men are involved, they will use whatever to justify themselves, their desires, and their actions. Religion is just one tool used to do that.

    You will find many people the world over belive many of the same things are right or wrong, irrespective of their language, culture, or religion. Things like murder, theft, etc., are all pretty universally thought of as bad – regardless of the culture, language, or religion. I think there ARE universal principles of morality that God has defined and that we can discover. But just because these commonalities exist does not mean we should ignore the God who said certain things are right and other things are wrong.

    You have asked an interesting question concerning homosexual marriage. I hope I do not offend you with what I am about to say.

    First, I have to say that as a Christian, I think its important that I legally do what I can to prevent that which I consider to be harmful to be instituted as law. I think homosexual sex and homosexual marriage to be harmful to people because God has said it is wrong and to institute it as law would encourage people to do what God has said to not do, to say nothing of the physcial and emotional ramifications. As such, I would be against any form of union for homosexuals being recognized legally. I dont think we should encourage people to do what God has said to not do.

    I have a couple of posts concerning why I care whether other people do things God has said to not do: http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/why-do-christians-care-about-any-particular-sin/ http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/what-and-who-you-surround-yourself-with-affects-you/

    Now, having said all that, I dont really think the government can decide who is or is not married. A governmnet saying something is so or not so does not make it true. The commitment between two people is what makes their relationship, not the government. I think people should be able to designate who is able to act on their behalf or do anything we normally consider to be in the ballywick of marriage. I DO think the government should be able to encourage certain behavior through making laws/regulations which encouarge/benefit that behafvior,, and making other laws/regulations which discourage behavior they wish to discourage. Ie. Nations need to have a birth rate which replaces their death rate, and as such need to encourage child bearing at least to replace what is being lost.

    Merry Christmas, and remember, the birth of Christ (the one sent by God to be born to reconcile us to God) is why we celebrate this holiday.

  45. Very good info

  46. You love to preach the Law, but you totally neglect the true message of Christ: Love. I have read your article and responses and I find no love in you. Your heart has become as a stone and I shall pray for you. I shall pray that the blood of Christ shall soften your heart and you will know his Love.

    You, who are so eager to weigh, judge and measure your brothers and sisters and count their sins when it is NOT your place. Only THE FATHER can judge. Woe be to you, for on your day of judgement? The same scales you have weighed so many others will be used to weigh your sins, and you will beg with a dry mouth for His Mercy and to show tolerance where you yourself offered none.

    You attempt to deny these poor sinners the salvation of Christ by saying they do not really live within Him because they sin when you forget – it is the sinners Christ has come for, not the righteous.

    I name you a false prophet. You stand as the accuser of the brethern, as Lucifer himself does. Begone blogger, do not suggest to these poor people their vanities.

    • Thank you for your prayers. and I appreciate what you have to say about grace and love.

      You however are mistaken if you believe there is no love in me. I simply realize that according to GOD, if you love Him you will obey Him.

      As for judging, we are to discern between right and wrong. We are to call our brothers on their sin, so long as we have dealt with our own – to not be hypocritical. I have had my sins forgiven. I have repented. I have turned to God. I continue to have my sins forgiven – they have been paid for by the blood of Christ. The difference is, I know I’m a sinner. Those who deny what GOD has said concerning certain actions, who call good what GOD has said is evil, or who call evil what GOD has said is good, THEY deny the word of GOD. They call GOD a liar. If you can deny that GOD has said to not sin, feel free. If you want to deny that GOD has said to not be homosexual, then feel free.

      Check out my other articles on homosexual sin. There’s a few. I’ve been there and done that.

      It IS sinners God sent Christ for. But He also said we need to turn away from our sins – repent. We need to stop sinning. We need to turn to God, and we need to have deeds that prove it (Acts 26;:20). I know that God loves us all, but God will also judge us. Have YOUR sins been forgiven? Have YOU repented and turned to GOD, instead of to your own wisdom?

      You can name me what you want, but the truth is, I share God’s love with everyone. I have not accused anyone. I have simply spoken what GOD has said. Sin is sin, God hates sin. God said to not sin. God said homosexual sex is a sin. You are free to deny it, but then you would be wrong.

  47. Wb, you are judged for ‘judging’ and the condemned by the judge who judges you?

    • Joel,

      I’m always amazed by those who latch onto one verse to the exclusion of all others that teach a fuller explanation of a topic. This is often the case with people who dont want to feel bad, or to be told to not do what they want to do.

  48. If it is any consolation, they said and did worse to Christ than labeling Him as a false prophet.

    Homosexuality is a sin. Simple. So are other things, like labeling things of God devilish.

  49. I SAID I was sorry about that… :)

  50. Hi Wb, I just read with a little sadness that you are reconsidering your continued posting on this site. I hope whatever you decide it will put you back on a good path for you and your kids future.
    First just a quick mention for Joel, you made a slip of the tongue earlier that leads to so much consternation between gay rights supporters and christians! You said
    “Homosexuality is a sin. Simple.”
    the correct phrasing is:
    “Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of a christian. Simple.”
    It’s important to remember that christianity does not own the word sin, and it has meanings beyond the ones’ you as christians’ put on it.
    WB, i guess this ends an enjoyable, and sporadic 18 months of debate an discussion. You’ve helped me to understand the christian mindset and through understanding we can all learn to love and care for each other-even if we don’t care for each other’s actions very much.
    You’ve also helped clear up some ambiguities in my own mindset, by forcing me to examine my beliefs and take a stand for them when necessary.
    The most valuable thing thing these conversations have done has been to galvanise the belief that there’s hope for all of us in this world to stand side by side, love each other and live our lives the way we feel is right.
    My life remains an almost stupefying wonder that fills me with waves of joy each time i step back and try to take in all the things i am so lucky to have and to have experienced-my family, my friends, that sunset, that feeling of warmth all tucked up on a stormy night, that feeling on a mountaintop, the rush of falling from a plane. And all these things are all the more beautiful knowing that death will be a mystery till i get there, and the question of where we came from will take millions of years to find out.
    That’s my way of not just saying that I’m going to continue to have a great life, but that I hope you share something of these feelings, attributed to your belief in your god.
    Thanks for everything Wb, you’ve shown yourself to be a very good and articulate person who cares for others and knows how to deliver that care-in the form of a question answered, not a sermon preached. I hope your current problems are just a rest stop on your path and that we’ll see you back here soon. If not have a great life, don’t lose your faith and remember to take care of yourself before looking after others.
    -Mark from Ireland

    • Hi Kryp! Thanks for your encouragement.

      I’ve not been on here much, as I am working to care for my kids in a trying time in all our lives. My wife is determined to start a life on her own. I pray God uses this time to teach us all how to more rely upon Him.

      I am still not certain I will continue to blog here, but I have a feeling I will in time continue to teach. My original concern was whether I qualified to teach God’s word. The only qualifications we see in scripture are for elders and deacons, and some could read those as saying I am still qualified to perform those offices while others would say I do no. I will leave that for God to determine. But I can certainly teach God’s word if and/or when He leads me to do so. The only question still open is whether I have the time or energy. Right now, I do not. But I imagine that too will change, as I adjust to the new “normal” I find myself living.

      I appreciate your patience with me, as I have struggled to find ways to merge my love of all mankind with my understanding of what God has said. I’m not perfect. I fail to accurately portray what God has said and done at times. But I DO try.

      We most certainly CAN get a long with others, through love. But we must also be willing to be patient with one another.

      I happen to think it matters not whether a Christian calls something a sin or not – if GOD calls it one, then it is. Whether we believe it or agree with it is irrelavant. I think we all feel things from God which make us gla dto be alive. Sometimes we are able to feel and express it easily, while there are other times when feeling or expressing the awe we have for God is more difficult. But God created us all. God loves us all. And God wants us to all choose the most important choice – to trust He sent His Son to become human and suffer and die for our sins, and resurrected Him on the third day to show His power over death – His deity. We will never (in this plane of existence) be able to scientifically prove or disprove God or God’s creation of mankind. By its very existence, it is outside fhe scope of science. But we each WILL individually learn the truth as we die and are met by He who created us. But by that time, it will be too late.

      Does this mean it doesn’t matter? No. It matters a lot.
      Does this mean it is the only thing that matters? Only if you are to die in the next instant.
      Does this mean if you didn’t die just then, then it doesn’t matter? No. But the truth is, none of us know when we will die. So we could each die in the next instant. We each must choose for ourselves whether to accept the gift of faith God offers us, and so accept the gift of eternal life.

      Dont forget, that regardless of the happiness you find in this life, it is fleeting in comparison to that which we can live in the next. Always remember, your choices in this life matter in the next….

  51. Hi WB,
    glad you’re still aking a contribution to your site, even if you are not ready to pass your thoughts and knowledge via new article for now, i trust you will again in time.
    I had clicked on to the site to see your response, became immensly disenchanted by it and left, vowing not to return. After time spent reflecting and sharing my thoughts and also in light of recent events in the media, I feel it’s time to come back and make my point.
    You said: I happen to think it matters not whether a Christian calls something a sin or not – if GOD calls it one, then it is.
    This is simply not true and the mentality that purports such an idea has no place in a civilised society. Right now we are grappling with a muslim ideology that says no person in the entire world may create an image of the prophet mohammed, because it is forbidden by the muslim faith. The inherent, fundamental flaw in this way of thinking is that the rules that govern their faith apply to all of mankind. This mentality is incompatible with a peaceful modern society, for as long as they insist that their way of looking at the world apply’s to me in any way, we have no basis for dialogue and on some level we will forever be at war.
    This is exactly what you are doing when you use the sentence above. You say that somehow what YOUR belive transcends MY belief, I’m afraid it does not. I am bound by the rules and laws of MY beliefs and for you to say that ‘if god says something is a sin, it is’ is to rubbish my beliefs. I will never tell you that what I believe is the law of the world because it is not, it is the law of me. Unless fundamentalists the world over can come to terms with this then religious war is going to be an ever present reality for a long time to come because like ost people in this world I am ready to fight and die to defend my beliefs.
    I’ll leave it with you, if you really believe what you say above then we don’t really have much basis for further dialogue but I have quite enjoyed learning about your faith. regards, Kryp.

    • Hi Kryp!

      I think you misunderstand me. I am not talking about what any religion or person says is right or wrong being what is right or wrong.

      Something either is or is not. We can interpret, we can make our own decisions, we can discuss or argue all we like. We can develop religions to explain and promulgate our beliefs. But this does not make them correct. For example, there are certain laws governing the universe. They are either correct, or incorrect – not both simultaneously. However, these laws have not always been known, recognized, or agreed upon. It took some time for there to come a general agreement. Some people would say one thing, others would say something else. Eventually there came general agreement. Yet, even though there is agreement regarding them, it is still possible for some of them to be incorrect. Why do I say this? because our agreement on their validity is based upon our own observations and in some cases calculations based upon certain presuppositions. If ANY of those presuppositions is incorrect, then those things we call laws are in fact not law, but incorrect theory. Now, by our own definition, a law can not be wrong. But that is man stating a supposition, making a definition. In the same way, man makes definitions, observations, and suppositions regarding the metaphysical realm.

      You are free to agree with me or not. But there is only one God. This god created the universe. This god created an external measurement of right and wrong. This god gets to set the rules. Some of those rules have been discovered. by mankind. For instance the moral codes of most all cultures are very similar and many of them can be boiled down to essentially the exact same things. Another instance would be what we call laws of physics. We can discover these things. However, some things have been related to us from this god (again, you are free to agree or not). But those of us who believe that we have been blessed with a revelation from God believe that we know what God has said and what God wants and what God has done and will do. But even if we are wrong about having a revelation from God, God still gets to set the rules. What HE says is right, is right. What HE says is wrong, is wrong. In the end, it will be made clear as to which religion came the closest to accurately teaching what God revealed. But regardless of that, it will not change the fact that God sets the rules, not any given religion.

      This is why I say that ultimately it doesn’t matter what I say is right or wrong. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what muslims, hindus, witches, etc. say is right or wrong. What matters is what does GOD say – because HE set the rules and HE will judge us in the end as to whether we obeyed.

      Now your concern seems to be solely about the ability to live your life as you see fit without intervention from people who hold to a religious belief that teaches things that run counter to what you believe. You are free to disagree with any religion. you are free to disagree with any individual. You are free to disagree with any government. However, there will always be consequences for our disagreements – sometimes loss of relationship, sometimes loss of freedom, sometimes loss of money (as in fines), sometimes pain (as in being hurt physically), sometimes death (as in some religions or some people do not value my life as much as they value their ability to force others to act as if they are in agreement with them). But my concern is not solely with this physical life. My concern is partly with this physical life (in that anyone is free to choose to agree or disagree with me with no consequence). But my major concern is with the eternal life (or lack thereof) that each of us will face upon our physical death.

      If you choose to not accept the fact that God exists, that God loves us, that God sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins, that we are called to change from running our own lives to letting God do so, then you are ignoring what God has been putting before you in so many ways. And that’s fine. That’s your choice, and you are free to make it. But, I believe that making that choice will in fact have much more dire consequences for you than anything anyone or any religion in this life could ever have. In fact, without choosing Christ, you have God’s wrath against you, according to the Bible (John 3:16-18, 3:31-36). But by choosing to accept Christ, you have peace with God and eternal life.

  52. Kryp, I find it odd that you criticize Christians because they believe that they can state what is right and what is wrong, but yet, you are ready to state what is right and what is wrong.

    You might do yourself a favor and check out Seth Sander’s book, The Invention of Hebrew, and realize just what made this world civilized.

  53. Hey WB,
    Glad to see your making responses. I hope your god is looking after you at the moment. Moreso I hope you have good friends to look out for you and that your communication with your family is open.
    Sorry it’s taken so long to respond, I’m trying to fundraise for an expedition to the Himalaya and it’s taking a lot of my will and energy.

    I’m not sure that I misunderstand you. I can definitely say that we’re understanding each other.
    First of all there are no laws that govern the universe that we have been able to yet articulate. Even something as fundamental as gravity has promulgated a wide range of theories, ranging from the effects of atmospheric pressure on Earth to the curvature of space caused by a dense body. But the laws of gravity are not laws of the universe. “What goes up must come down” doesn’t hold weight on the moon (pardon the pun). In the universe we have only theory, mighty exciting theory though it may be.
    There are laws that govern the world. For example ‘what goes up must come down’, but it’s only valid for as long as earth has an atmosphere so it hardly constitutes a law. There are also laws that govern humanity, for example ‘Thou shalt not kill’. But many large groups of people, the United States Justice system for example, who feel that’s not the case. So again that’s less a law and more a theory.
    There are laws like ‘my heart will beat untill I die’, but that is also only relevant at the current limits of our technology. A limit, rather than a law.
    I’m open to suggestion but I think laws are a blanket term for a collection of theories and limits. Untill of course you introduce religion. Try and convince those people that their faith is a theory!!
    I do not agree with you. But that is not the issue I am trying to convey, the issue is that the only way for meaningful dialogue between all people in this world is to accept that while in your universe, the buck stops with god. In my universe, humanity does not have the information to even theorise on where the buck stops. In Buddhism, the buck stops with the teachings of Buddha. It is fine for you and other believers to say that god and only god will say what is right and wrong. But how then do you propose to communicate in a meaningful way with anyone of another faith? Do you simply smile sanctimoniously and talk about how their beliefs will consign them to hell? Or do you incorporate a mechanism that allows you to accept that their beliefs have been as hard sought as yours and the fact that they know that the fundamental laws of the universe are lain down by another power deserve as much credence as you god doctrine?
    You seem intent on perceiving me as someone who is bent only on receiving permission to do what I want when I want. I’m sorry if I’ve given you that impression. My concern here is trying to understand the reasons why human beings cause so much pain and hurt to each other. Of all the reasons people do this, I find that religious grounds are the most hypocritical as adherents of most of the world’s religions preach understanding and love from one side of their mouths while scorning and describing as wrong that which runs contrary to their teachings.
    I personally believe in an existence beyond that which we see around us. But I believe the value that is to be gleaned from this life lies in depth of experience, not rigid laws that draw outcasts from, for example, the actions of consenting adults. Whether that be in terms of homosexuality, extra marital affair, sex before marriage, whatever. Taking a stance against these things that do not matter in this life or the next leads to a dearth of experience and deprives the individual of the raison d’être for this plain of living.
    I hope you don’t have the impression that not ‘choosing’ god, as you put it, is some sort of easy decision that makes my life easier to live? If I were to ‘choose god’ I could go and get myself a girlfriend, and not live with the constant pain of knowing that I may not be able to have a family. I could be assured of an afterlife, and perhaps earn a place in it, not question, wonder, theorise and ultimately accept that until I cross the threshold, I simply lack the capacity to comprehend what will happen after I die, like all human beings. I would no longer have to constantly question my morality and that of my country and my race, I could simply log onto your blog and discuss what god has said about whatever issue is bothering me.

    My path is difficult and not the one I would choose were I given a list of possible life options before I started out. But I have grown into a person who is dedicated to living a congruent life, believing, thinking and saying things that are line with each other. But I do not seek to take the crutch of blind faith away from those who need it. People who need to dissolve themselves from their physical and spiritual responsibility, as you say, need to ‘change from running their own lives to letting god do so.’ It would be extraordinarily cruel to suddenly lift the shutters on those people and say “There’s no god, sorry about that…” and I would never encourage it. Who is anyone to take away the coping mechanisms of others without offering something to replace them?
    The fact remains that the views of religious zealots like yourself need to be reformed. You need to put as high a value on the beliefs of others as you do your own, only then will there be hope for anything other than the mob rule of the prevalent belief. You need to be able to say. “God says what’s right and wrong.”, and “Buddha says what’s right and wrong.”, and “Right and wrong is a concept agreed by humanity, there is no conceivable higher power governing our fate.”. Failing that you need to be able to explore and accept the consequences to you and your belief system of saying “God determines what is right and wrong , this is my faith. The belief of others that this system of belief does not dictate what is right or wrong is equally valid.”

    lots to think about my friend,
    keep well
    K

    • You might not like that there are laws governing our universe, but there are. One example would be the Laws of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics).

      And while there are differing interpretations of “thou shalt not murder” in different cultures, and “thou shalt not steal”, etc, all cultures have in fact found these “laws” to be useful means of limiting interaction of the populace.

      It also seems as if you have set up your own system of morality which is highly subjective and apt to change based upon what is convenient to you, rather than based upon any objective standard which does not change. I’ve lived that path. I didn’t find it difficult – you are free to decide what you think is right and wrong and why and then when its inconvenient or someone else has an explanation that you like better you are free to adopt that – that is blowing with the wind rather than standing firm. I find it interesting you seem to think you know so much about this world and the next as to be able to determine what matters and what does not in both realms of existence for everyone over all time and all cultures.

      You claim to “have grown into a person who is dedicated to living a congruent life, believing, thinking and saying things that are line with each other.” But in fact, It sounds as if you want to claim that people should be accepting of others (meaning you and your desires/thoughts/beliefs/actions), while you yourself refuse to accept people who do not agree with you. It seems a bit hypocritical and judgmental.

      To say you have the right to sit in judgement of me but i don’t have the same right is hypocritical of you. To say you (and those who agree with you) are the only ones smart enough, genteel enough, mature enough, evolved enough, to know there there is no absolute right and wrong seems a bit big headed of you. And I’ve been there. I know what its like to think you have figured out that if people were just accepting of you then you could do what you wanted – but its not any different than my children who want to do what they want to do without interference or judgment.

      To claim religion is a crutch is bigoted and judgmental – two things you claim to have grown beyond. In fact, I’ve been with no religion, and I’ve been with non-christian self-determined religion, and I’ve been with Bible-based Christianity. I find the latter more congruent and logical. Unlike your logical fallacy of “You need to be able to say. ‘God says what’s right and wrong.’, and ‘Buddha says what’s right and wrong.’, and ‘Right and wrong is a concept agreed by humanity, there is no conceivable higher power governing our fate.’ ” Those statements can not all be right – so to be able to truly believe them all simultaneously, one must be crazy or illogical or both.

      I would submit that by saying two opposing things are equally right is illogical and insane (which is a working definition for post-modernism for some people). I would further submit that one can accept that others do not agree with one’s views without having to believe that a different set of standards or beliefs is equally valid, That is how we survive in this world – everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs and that’s OK. But two opposing beliefs can not both be right – one must be wrong. Does it matter whose belief is right or wrong? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. If you believe you can fly and you jump off a thirty story building to prove it, and I do not believe I can fly and choose to not jump off said building, then I think my belief would prove to be right and it DOES matter in that case. But sometimes its simply a matter of preference, in which case it doesn’t matter much at all.

      But if someone believes that there is an afterlife and there is only one way to get into it, and someone else does not accept either of those propositions, does it matter? Only if the first person is right. If the second person is right, then it doesnt matter at all.

      You’ve chosen to not accept Christ. That’s your right. I think you’re wrong. That’s my right. We’ll see who is correct in the afterlife, if there is one.

  54. I’m not sure that I misunderstand you. I can definitely say that we’re understanding each other.
    *misunderstanding each other!
    :-)

  55. Hello Everyone

    The pre-occupation of Christians with homosexuality let alone the other ‘religions’ or political societies, usually a ‘form of communisim’ noted for their intolerance of other human behaviour really is frightening. It was not until homosexuals themselves fought back that ‘others’ became aware of their plight. The intimidation, marginalisation and in some cases torture and the death penalty is something that has created more fear amonst ‘Gay’ groups that it needed the very people themselves affected by such discrimnation to rise up and be counted. This would not be a matter for discussion if they had never taken up the sword of free speech and their democratic right to be heard. Nobody would have defended the homosexual citizen, wherever they are, until they themselves rose up in anger against their families, their friends, their religious teachers, their politicians – in fact their nearest and dearest and were forced to create or become visible as ”The Gay Community”.

    We have had to put up with such derogatory terms as ”social deviants”, ”queer’, ”psychologically sick”, ”an abomination”, ”poofters” etc., etc., from people who say they are friends of Jesus Christ and love them. I believe in the Gospel of Christ and like every other person on the face of this earth have to work out my faith ”in fear and trembling” – common to those of us of a Christian faith. It is difficult enough to live in the Christian family with my brothers and sisters defaming me, humiliating me, regarding me as a deviant, something less than the rest of the family and often believe that they are doing God a service by highlighting what they would term as my weakness, my dreadful sin and would force me into their mould when at the same time they are lacking in the very love which Jesus commanded us to express in our daily lives because of our love of the same gender, which is naturally often expressed in a sexual way. My love is called ‘lust’ and therefore has no validity.

    I see from the letters and messages on this site a collection of Gays from all walks of life trying to justify their existence from a predominantly hostile public. Whatever your understanding of life, theist, agnostic or atheist, I take my hat off to you for trying to explain yourselves to the ”saved”. As I believe Jesus died for every individual I take consolation in Him – his followers can be brutal and have been historically. I would like you brothers and sisters in the Gay Community to consider the following from Psalm 71:

    19 Your righteousness reaches to the skies, O God, you who have done great things. Who, O God, is like you?

    20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

    21 You will increase my honor and comfort me once again.

    To all you followers of Christ Jesus, please remember:

    Love

    1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

    2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

    4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

    5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

    6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

    7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    8 Love never fails.

    Do you really have everything so worked out in your lives.

    Christians should be servants and not masters. May God, who holds us in his claws and soars with us like an eagle never let us go – and include those who have not yet recognised him.

    May God lavish his love on you all!

    Winstone

    • Winstone,

      Welcome. Good comment.

      I would like to point out that homosexual sin is no different than heterosexual sin. God has defined with whom people are to have sex and how. Anything other than that is sin. God has defined right and wrong. We can choose to obey or not obey. *shrug* each of us makes the choice daily. We must die to self and live for Christ. We must leave sin behind, becoming more and more holy.

      Romans 14:23
      But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

      James 4:17
      If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

      1 John 5:16-18
      16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. 18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

      Of course, we are only saved if we trust in Christ.
      John 3:16-18
      16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

      As part of trusting Christ, we must obey Him.
      1 John 3:9
      No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

      This of course means we obey Him and CONTINUE to trust and obey Him.
      Colossians 1:21-23
      21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

      2 John 1:9
      Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

  56. WB, i have read the exchange between you and Kryp and found it very interesting. I noticed that you gave reference via Bible verses for what you said and you presented the info in a very, patient manner. Kudos to you for that! Trying to help someone save themself FROM themself is a difficult, and sometimes almost impossible thing to do.
    Kryp, on the other hand, only gave his opinions; you gave him those of God. That is all we can do as Christians.
    I detected NO hate in your answers, and realize where you were coming from. Truth, unfortunately, is the new ‘hate crime’ of our land.
    Why anyone would choose to go it ‘on-their-own’ is for sure beyond me, when God has laid out His plans to guide us through a life that is much easier to cope with when we follow His rules. He sure does make the hard times so much easier to deal with.
    I believe that the real ‘hate’ is what we end up with when we refuse to let our lives be guided by a God of love; a God who wants to walk and talk with us.
    You have spoken well, and with a patience i unfortunately cannot find in myself.
    God bless you – I hope you will keep up the good work from the Good Book. Godspeed!

    • GetTough,

      Thank you for the kind words.
      I used to go it on my own. I was not able or willing to trust God or His word. So I didnt consider what God has written to be any more inspired than any other book or thought – especially my own thoughts. So I understand people trying to reason out a moral system. I understand people trying to determine their own religious beliefs, rather than seeking what God has provided. Its so much easier to do things God’s way, but I didnt know that then. I was not ready to surrender to God and accept Christ as my Lord and Savior.

      I do not hate anyone. I wish that everyone could see the truth about their need for redemption. But they cant – either because God ha not yet moved in them or because they choose to not believe. But I can still try to lay out the truth as best as I can.

      God bless you and merry Christmas!

  57. […] Christ DID speak out against homosexuality […]

  58. wb,
    You mentioned in one of your posts that you might want to reseatch what the Bible has to say about self defense.
    A few months ago I used information from the following link as a guide to study that subject. You might want to reference this web site as a beginning point.

    http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/

    I have no connection, neither personal nor financial in this site.
    I am not attempting to start a thread.elad

    • elad,

      Thank you. I will look into this. God DID show me the scripture about how Christ told his disciples to take a sword with them – I doubt it would be as an ornament.

  59. Hey WB,
    When I first came to this message board, I was interested in the christian viewpoint. I had the belief that Christian Love was a conditionless love for the fellow human. I see now that it is conditional on adhering to the teachings of Christ. Thats fair enough, I think it’s dangerous that the words must be interpreted by flawed humans, you think that words have only one meaning and to interpret anything aside from the one true meaning is incorrect.
    I think over the course of talking to you I really had to think hard about what it is I believe, I’ve gained a passion for it and a real feeling for the happiness it brings me every day. Like you I want to share that with people, though it seems I started to do that on a Christian forum, which is not the correct place for such sharing, it’s frustrating and pointless.
    I believe that we as people are bound to explore the world and other people. I believe that every person is different and if we could all stop damning each other we would be able to understand each other a lot better. I believe that any activity that does not harm another living thing is perfectly acceptable. I believe that two consenting adults can essentially do as they please under this heading.
    You believe that homosexuals are to be cast into hell if they do not accept their homosexuality is a sin and repent. You believe that your beliefs are the word of god and that gives a clear but very rigid boundary in which all people should live their lives.
    Clearly these beliefs run contrary, so what hope is there for the future? Do we simply ‘tolerate’ each other while the christian agenda attempts to marginalise people of my belief and the liberal agenda attempts to marginalise people of Christian faith. Is there truelly no middle ground?
    Essentially my original intention coming to your site was to better understand the christian viewpoint. What I found right at the surface was a damning of who I (and many, many other people) am, with no attempt to reconcile that. But you can’t reconcile, it’s in the bible that you can’t.
    I have common ground with atheists, agnostics, buddhists and most likely other strands of faith. But I think I must now accept the fact that the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, through their branding of me as a deviant, are never going to yield a level of deep and constructive discussion regarding both faith and society. It makes me sad to envision this conclusion as being closed off from people is completely contrary to my own belief.
    K

    • Hi Kryp.

      Love is unconditional. Acceptance of decisions or actions is not. I love my children – nothing can change that. But their choices make it easier or harder to converse with them or to accept what they want to do or say. For instance, if my child wants to do what God wants, then I admire that. If he wants to do what God has said not to do, then I dont admire that.

      I understand the various arguments people use to justify their choices or feelings or actions. I dont damn anyone for their choices or actions; I accept that people do things they shouldn’t. This does not affect whether I love them or not. They choose for themselves how they will live, it is God who will judge. People are free to live as they want. As I have said, those choices affect others as well as themselves and we each will answer for our words and actions.

      I think we are each different. I think we can get along regardless of whether we agree about whether there is a god, or whether God said to not do certain things. Some things are less acceptable than others – kind of a range of acceptability (I’m less tolerant of murder than I am of lying). I tolerate different things to different degrees. I DO think we come to a middle ground in most areas, while attempting to advance what we think is right – regardless of whether we are liberal or not.

      I dont think we (you and I) are using the word reconcile the same way. I have no problem with anyone. I just think people who do what God has said not to do will have to face God about that – regardless of what that thing is.

      Its easy to converse at various levels on faith and society. The problem comes in if you insist on being right and not accepting me being right (which is what you want from ME). We simply must agree to disagree about certain things.

      Also, one can accept actions or decisions without agreeing with them or embracing them. But many people would not give Christians that ability. Acceptance or tolerance of what we do not agree with is not sufficient – many want us to agree and embrace what they choose to do.

  60. Are you more interested in the viewpoint of Christian’s or in the viewpoint of God?

    True Christians are to echo God’s Word, not their own feelings.
    True Christians are showing love when they point out sin and its consequences and its rememdy. The remedy for escaping sin’s consequences is coming to depend on Jesus to forgive the sins you have repented of.

    Denying that any certain act is sinful, whether or not a person is a Christian will not change the fact of what God says about the act. The consequences for ignoring the remedy for sin is the same for homosexuals, for heterosexuals for all of the LGBT community and all other sinners.

    Wake up and smell the love offered to those who commit sin and the forgiveness offered for repenting anf for the asking. Wake up and smell the sulphur and brimstone for those who refuse to admit to sin and continue to reject the love offered to you by God and Jesus.

    It is a choice offered to the entire world, LGBT and non LGBT and it is the choice every individual makes on his own. If you think you will escape the consequences by not making a choice, then you have already made your choice to reject the love offered by Jesus.

    I challenge LGBT members to look at the hate Jesus had for sin during His lifetime. He did not take part in sin. At the same time take a look at the love He shows to all people in that He took upon Himself all the punishment.which God deemed sacrificial payment for sin.

    He offers that love to LGBT as well as non-LGBT. The offer is to repent of sin and trust Him to forgive your sin and help you turn away from sin. Jesus worked very hard under very tough circumstances to retain His purity and His sinlessness. Still, He is willing to give those things to your soul as a gift just because you come to Him and ask Him to come into your life. Where could you find more love?

    There are many people who prefer to believe there is no such thing as sin and they work to promote that belief. Those people are promoting lies which lead to preventing people who are offered deliverance from taking their opportunity to come to Jesus. When people fail to come to God for forgiveness and salvation their final end is eternal torment. Those who choose to come to God in repentance and trusting Jesus sacrifice for their sins are given a pleasant eternity. Both results are true even if the people have no sexual immorality because sexual immorality is not the only sin that mankind takes part in..

    Promoting lies which prevent people from learning about God’s salvation is hateful. Those people spread ideas which do lead to eternal torment for those who buy into those lies. That is very hateful.

    If you were a MD and had a patient suffering from a terminal disease and you knew the cure, you would be showing hate by not telling the patient abou this disease and if you told the patient about his condition, but withheld the cure you would be showing hate for the patient. Conversely, if you told the patient about his illness and told him about the cure you would be showing love for that person. When people inform their fellow humans about sin and its cure it is not hateful, rather it is showing love. The patient then has the option to decide whether he trusts the MD. And you have the option of accepting Jesus’ cure for sin. Some of the time people come to Jesus, but some of the time people turn against the Christian who shows them love by showing the Christian hate rather than appreciation.

    Every person born has a disease which is a terminal illness for the eternal welfare of his soul. The disease is called sin. The cure to excape the unpleasant consequences is to repent of sin and trust Jesus for the cure. You can do that with a short conversation speaking to Jesus.

    Christians sometimes use the phrase love the sinner, but hate the sin. Some homosexuals want to pervert that phrase into hate speech. Some homosexuals tell people that they feel hated when they hear that phrase because they ARE homosexuals. They have made their own identity into being a sinner.

    Homosexuals must be having a very troublesome identity crisis. I challenge homosexuals to grow an identity which goes beyond their sexual leanings. Is you sexual preference all that defines you? If so, why? Don’t you have any other interests in life other than your sexual preference? Do you choose to be defined only by your sexual preference? Aren’t you limiting yourselves unnecessariily? Aren’t you overcompensating for something? How many heterosexuals have you met who feel they must continually identify themselves as heterosexuals? I believe that very many heterosexuals might perfer that people do not identify themselves by their sexual orientation, but rather than by their standing in several other areas.

    True Christians who have matured are willng and able to accept and love homosexuals without joining in homosexual acts and lifestyle. Boiled down to its truest and deepest meaning that is all that is meant by the phrase hate the sin. That phrase is true of sin of any nature even when the sin is NOT homosexuality.

    Christians who have not matured to the point where they can be comfortable around homosexuals might be experiencing a condition discovered by psychiatrists. Psychaiatrists must be wary of a certain phenumenon. The patients of some mental doctors help their patients feel so much better that the response of the patient is to fall in love with the doctor. The doctors must guard against that phenomenon.

    I have a theory that nonLGBT people hesitate interacting with LGBT because they are uncomfortable about that possibility occurring. The LGBT community claim that those people are homophobic. In truth, a male, heterosexual counselors faces that possibility when he counsels a female. LGBT community, please stop confusing fear of LGBT with reasonable caution. Heterosexuals just don’t want to deal with all the possible embarrassments brought on by unwanted advances.

    It seems to me that the people trying to promote and glorify LGBT lifestyles are trying to get Christians to oppose God right along with the LGBT community. Be aware that you might rationalize and use logic to persuade some Christians, but it just won’t wash with God. He wrote His morality on paper and in hearts of His followers. LGBT logic and rationality will not change God’s standard.

    If you prefer to pervert that into hate and intolerance you are simply mistaken. God’s act of offering sinners His redemption is the pinnacle of love and tolerance. Christ died for us all while we were still sinners. How much more tolerance could you ask? Do you expect to be allowed the better end rather than the bitter end while still taking part in LGBT acts or while remaing in any other sinful lifestyle? That is not what is meant by repenting. Repentance is a required condition before being reconciled to God. The true fact is that God is much more tolerant than people. God has stated His limits. He hates sin and He cannot even look at it. Accept that or reject that, God allows you to make your choice. There are consequences for either choice. When one repents and asks Jesus to come into his life the consequence of that is the soul of the person gets the righteousness of Jesus placed into his soul. Then the person is reconciled to a good relationship with God. His life should then become more and more in accordance with God’s standards.

    God has given all people ample opportunity to avoid eternal torment rather than “sending” people there. He has gone to very great lengths at great cost to Himself and to His Son to give all people a chance to pick the pleasant end rather than the unpleasant end. He will not force you against making the choice you prefer. You make your own choice.

    Where is the love in people callling God a liar when He tells us which acts are sin? Where is the love in people who lead others away from making a choice in favor of God and to their own eternal benefit? Where is the love in promoting LGBT and chosing to remain in opposition to God’s word on lifestyles?

    The same is true of the choice offered to people even if their sin is not sexual in nature. Trusting God or opposing Him is always your choice. Make up your own mind which you prefer? Then do that. Be aware that you influence others to go your way. Do you want to meet God with the fact that you influenced others in oppopsition to Him?

  61. Dear Kryp,

    Very much enjoyed hearing your POV in this discussion. I was a Christian before I came to understand that I am gay… I thought I had to leave everything I had come to believe in because I was gay – obviously, which was not by choice, it’s how I am genetically built as a human. Therefore, I can’t stop being gay and frankly have embraced it. I certainly miss my Christian roots, though. I went on to study health sciences and learned of numerous studies that found that those who are spiritual (in any way; god-centred or not) are typically healthier people in general. After reading that, I knew I was missing out on being a healthier version of myself as I had been suppressing my desire to be spiritual because I didn’t see how that could align with also being gay. Since then, I have looked into resources to help me figure out what the Bible really says about homosexuality. What you have read, and your interpretations of it that you expressed in your posts are pretty bang-on. Jesus does not bring up homosexuality; the verses that do (Lev., in particular) also call for us to not wear articles of clothing that differ in fabric type and to not eat shrimp. Like those rules are being up-held! I’d like to direct you to the doc film “Fish Out Of Water” by Ky Dickens – incredible resource for the Christian LGBT community. It looks at the specific verses that Christians use to attack homosexuality with, and then disproves their use of them in that context (i.e. in the Adam and Eve story, the purpose of Eve is translated as Helper – a sexless term). Thought you might be interested!

    I just wanted to post because I support your journey of discovery. I see that even though you do not with to associate with Christianity, that you are spiritual and I hope that your searching of spirituality leads you also to a healthier version of yourself.

    All the best,

    Guest

    • Guest, I agree, we SHOULD be spiritual, but it is insufficient in and of itself. We must follow GOD’s way to be able to get into heaven.

      John 3:16-18

      16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

      Jesus dealt with homosexuality in at least three different ways, and His disciples addressed it in other places:

      1. Jesus stated He did not come to abolish the law, but fulfill it (Matthew 5:17), and the Law most definitely forbids homosexual behavior
      2. Jesus dealt with all sexual sin as defined in the Old Testament when He dealt with pornea (Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23) – which would include homosexual behavior
      3. Jesus dealt with who God has stated a man should be married to when He said that God made them male and FEMALE (not helper), and that a man shall be joined to his WIFE (the Greek word is gune – meaning woman, wife, betrothed) – Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-8.

        4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ‘? 6 “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

      4. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach His disciples all truth and remind them of what He had taught (John 14:26), and Peter called Paul’s writing scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16),. in Romans 1, Paul called homosexual behavior called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent – this would indicate it is a sin and something to not do. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul said those who do that behavior will not inherit the kingdom of God. In Revelation 21:7, John recorded Jesus as having said that the sexually immoral will end up in the lake of fire – this again goes back to what God has said about sexual behavior God said to not do.

      But I think Jesus’ words are quite clear on the issue, as seen in Revelation 21:6-8

      6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

  62. I am going to be blunt and if that makes me a “hater” then so be it. Homosexuality is a sin, period. End of story. Like other sins, if one does not repent of that sin first by accepting Jesus Christ into their heart, then they stand guilty before God. Hey Jen, ask me and I will tell you that I’m not afraid for myself, but I am afraid for unrepentant homosexuals and people like you who enable those who practice that sin. If given a chance, I’d tell you that in person.

    • The plight of homosexual orientation has been met with hatred throughout history: well Richard, you are in good company – NAZI Germany, certain Muslim countries and anyone who feels they are fulfilling God’s will by being vocal in condemning individuals with same-sex attraction – such an idolatrous stance from a Christian. But then Christian morality is highly selective in what it condemns!! Nicht wahr!

      Arrests
      As police raids on homosexuals began and became widespread, more and more gays were identified and charged. A man suspected of violating § 175 would be questioned, phographed and often softened up with the use force. Under extreme pressure and violent interrogation those arrested would then be forced to give the names and addresses of other homosexuals known to them.

      Often the Gestapo would have raided the house of a homosexual on arrest and found an address book that would have lead them to other violators of § 175.

      ‘Voluntary’ castration
      From 1935 men convicted under § 175 could ‘volunteer’ to undergo castration in order to “free themselves” from their “degenerate sex drive.” This was the idea of SS doctor Himmler. Many homosexuals agreed to the operation believing that they would then be set free. After the operation many were then simply re-arrested as they were still thought to be a degenerate risk to the purity of the Reich.

      The number of homosexuals who died in Nazi concentration camps is unknown and likely to remain so. Although statistics are available on the number of men brought to trial on charges of “lewd and unnatural behaviour,” many more were sent to camps without the benefit of a trial. Moreover, many homosexuals were summilarily executed by firing squads; this was particularly the case with gays in the military — which encompassed nearly every able-bodied man during the final years of the war. Finally, many concentration camps systematically destroyed all their records when it became apparent that German defeat was imminent.

      By the way, the original sentencing of homosexuals was never lifted in post-war Germany until 1981 and homosexuals were never given any compensation unlike so many of the Holocaust survivors.

      I ask forgiveness from all homosexual men and women for the total disregard, persecution, murder, torture and hatred carried out by so-called contenders for the purity of the Church. All fanatics always behave in this manner.

      ”I am going to be blunt and if that makes me a “hater” then so be it.” You speak with such pride – boy, what a sinner you must be Richard!!

      • Winstone,

        Tying in what the Nazi regime did to people who may have been homosexual has nothing to do with whether it is a sin. Even unrepentant sinners think some sins are wrong.

        Regardless of that, Richard is right – calling something a sin is often considered to be hateful by those who dont want to be reminded of the truth. Its not pride to be willing to stand up and be called a hater, its a recognition of the truth.

        According to scripture, homosexual sex is wrong. People want to blame ‘selective’ Christians for calling such behavior a sin – But it is GOD who condemned it.

        Why would you ask forgiveness for something you have nothing to do with? That’s like an ant apologizing for an ant eater – it makes no sense.

        And as for being a fanatic – Jesus is quite clear: you are to be a fanatic or HE will spit you out. We need to recognize sin and turn from sin and to God.
        Revelation 3:15-19

        15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

        We need to address all sin. Perhaps that is what you were referring to when you used the word ‘selective’ in what appears to be a derogatory fashion – that the sin of homosexuality is only one among many sins we need to address. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it seems to me that the sins which do not receive much attention seem to be those which most people agree are sins – there’s no need to focus on them – murder, lying, coveting, adultery, etc. But Christians should call people who consider themselves Christian to a higher standard.
        James 5:19-20

        19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

        If we think we can claim to believe and go on sinning, then we are sadly mistaken.
        Hebrews 10:26-27

        For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

  63. wbmore – your response is rather patronizing towards Richard (I expected him to reply first) but your intervention highlights the fanatical elements of some Christians dying to wallop homosexuals with the scriptures believing they are doing God a service – not only to homosexuals!

    ”19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.” That does not give you license for a ferocious Biblical attack on anyone – you insult the dignity of that human being. This is for you personally to digest and use in your Christian walk. Don’t burden others publicly with your own needs. Look into yourself, whoever you are at wbmore and rid yourself of your own hypocrasy.

    ”19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

    Highly commendable but don’t bore the pants off anyone struggling with life’s problems by using scripture as ”stricture”. God bears a greater responsibility as the Potter than you or I. Before you strangle the spirit out of anyone look into your heart to see where you are lacking in love.

    ”For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”

    I have yet to meet a Christian who would admit not sinning – sometimes willfully – after receiving the knowledge of the truth. This is safeguarded by 1 John:

    5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

    I say that comparison with the behaviour of the Nazis is valid when dealing with minority groups, be they Jews, gypsies, the mentally insane, homosexuals, blacks etc., we Christians have to be careful because throughout our history our record has been abominable. You can quote the Bible till Kingdom come but if you do it without love we are just ‘clanging cymbals’!

    ”Regardless of that, Richard is right – calling something a sin is often considered to be hateful by those who dont want to be reminded of the truth. Its not pride to be willing to stand up and be called a hater, its a recognition of the truth.”

    Yes it is pride – pride is perhaps the easiest of sins to fall into, particularly when as you say: ‘don’t want to be reminded of the truth’. You are just miffed because not everyone on this site recognises the value of the truth you say you represent. Surely if you love the sinner – in this case, the homosexual – God, as Jesus assures us, has a special affection for those of us who are too-bruised and wounded to be touched. Jesus assures us too that God’s love can go through locked doors and into broken places and free up what’s paralysed and help that which can no longer help itself. God is not blocked when we are. God can reach through.

    What an interesting way to begin Advent!

    • This is my blog. Its not intervention when I write on this blog, and in fact, in this case, it was agreement with Richard.

      You either dont know how to read what I am writing or you dont understand the meaning of patronizing. What I said was in no way patronizing, particularly not to Richard.

      I am not doing God a service but being obedient to God. I have not attacked anyone. I have simply laid out what Scripture states. Take it or leave it. I am called to evangelize and disciple and teach. This blog is one avenue of doing that. Its not my need, but my obedience to God.

      I dont know why you would want to call what I am doing “hypocrasy.” I am not being hypocritical. I am not a Christian who is leading a homosexual life style.

      I have found that people who love God love God’s word. IF you dont want to read scripture, then dont read this blog – its filled with scripture.

      As for God having “more” responsibility than we for our actions, God will heal us, but we have a responsibility in accepting the healing of God.
      John 9:1-7

      1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

      Not only do we have a responsibility in accepting the healing of God, when we come to Christ, our old nature is crucified.
      Romans 6:4-8

      4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him

      Galatians 5:24

      24 Now those who [a]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

      I have never said we are not sinners. I have said we must leave sin behind. The verse you mentioned, 1 John 1:5-10, continues on telling us that we know that we know Christ if we keep His commandments and walk as Christ walked.
      1 John 2:1-6

      1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

      No one can continue to live a pattern of sin and be a Christian.
      1 John 3:9

      No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

      So anyone who claims to be a Christian should leave their sin behind and walk with Christ in obedience.

      It seems to me that you do not expect people to endure sound doctrine and confuse love with coddling someone and tickling their ears instead of sharing the truth:
      2 Timothy 4:3-4

      For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths

      I’m not upset in the slightest. I feel sorrow for those who reject the truth of God. God’s love is available to all – but they must each accept it. We must each change and turn to God and have deeds which show that change.
      Acts 26:20

      20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

      • wbmore – you are sad; indeed frightening! I needed to take a bit of time to see your comments to other contributors and I notice how you just quote scripture after scripture without any reference to society’s criminal attitude to homosexuals exacerbated by your and their ‘religious’ rants.

        “And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God…” (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

        “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;” (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

        “Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

        “Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.” (Deuteronomy 13:15)

        These severe laws commanded the members of the Hebrew religion to murder even their own children if they did not worship Yahweh (God).

        These Bible words can justify, to a fanatical fundamentalist believer, the killing of friends or family simply because they may fail to change their beliefs.

        Why anyone today would accept these words, much less allow them to exist in a sacred book goes against the nature of any tolerant and loving people.

        You see wbmore, if we behave in the manner adopted under Mosaic law – the Nazi Holocaust would pale to insignificant. You feed that hysterical, intolerant nature of particular groups of Christians who, if the circumstances were right e.g. Christians in Nazi Germany could justify their inhumane actions against anyone who acted or believed and behaved differently.

        Just imagine as a follower of Jesus Christ acting out the following in God’s name:

        “Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)

        These verses foretold the deaths of the people of Babylon. Fortunately not everyone in Babylon (now modern Iraq) fell by the sword or had their children dashed to pieces or their wives raped. If we believe these words as God inspired, then the killing of children and the raping of wives must also come as an inspiration from the Supreme Being.

        I don’t doubt your faith – I doubt your methods. You say ”You either dont know how to read what I am writing or you dont understand the meaning of patronizing.” I understand you quite well and, in my book, speaking on behalf of others is patronising (even though you see it as being in agreement) because in your zeal and cleverness of argument – not that I believe you have an acceptable argument because you just trot out Bible text after Bible text. You don’t deal with the social implications of what you are saying, nor the experiences of those on this site except those who agree with you.

        I once wrote to you: ”Nobody would have defended the homosexual citizen, wherever they are, until they themselves rose up in anger against their families, their friends, their religious teachers, their politicians – in fact their nearest and dearest and were forced to create or become visible as ”The Gay Community”.

        We have had to put up with such derogatory terms as ”social deviants”, ”queer’, ”psychologically sick”, ”an abomination”, ”poofters” etc., etc., from people who say they are friends of Jesus Christ and love them. I believe in the Gospel of Christ and like every other person on the face of this earth have to work out my faith ”in fear and trembling” – common to those of us of a Christian faith.” You never made one comment on this.

        Where is free will involved in your ”take it or leave it” attitude. There is only a threat but you constantly cloak it in the love of God………..????

        • wbmore – you are sad; indeed frightening!

          What I find sad is someone who wants to encourage people to do what God has called impurity, degrading, unnatural, indecent, not proper, unrighteousness, wickedness, evil (Romans 1).

          I needed to take a bit of time to see your comments to other contributors and I notice how you just quote scripture after scripture without any reference to society’s criminal attitude to homosexuals exacerbated by your and their ‘religious’ rants.

          I am concerned with whether people repent and turn to God (through faith in Christ) and have deeds appropriate to repentance (people who claim to be Christian should live as God has said to live), not with whether you think people in the past have treated people appropriately. God gets to decide whether something is right or wrong – you can agree with Him or not. Whether people have treated others well or poorly does not change whether God has called certain behavior wrong.

          These severe laws commanded the members of the Hebrew religion to murder even their own children if they did not worship Yahweh (God).
          These Bible words can justify, to a fanatical fundamentalist believer, the killing of friends or family simply because they may fail to change their beliefs.

          Anyone can use anything to justify their poor behavior. But this does not change whether the behavior is something they should or should not do. You want to judge history by modern sensibilities and you are free to do so, but I think we have enough problems dealing with our own failings in the eyes of God.

          Why anyone today would accept these words, much less allow them to exist in a sacred book goes against the nature of any tolerant and loving people.

          You are free to accept what God has had written and has maintained over the centuries, or not.

          You see wbmore, if we behave in the manner adopted under Mosaic law – the Nazi Holocaust would pale to insignificant. You feed that hysterical, intolerant nature of particular groups of Christians who, if the circumstances were right e.g. Christians in Nazi Germany could justify their inhumane actions against anyone who acted or believed and behaved differently.

          But there’d be many fewer people who went against the Mosaic Law. Good thing for those who do not want to live as Christ said that we are not under Mosaic Law. But the Mosaic Laws dealing with morality DOES teach what God has said is right and wrong.

          Just imagine as a follower of Jesus Christ acting out the following in God’s name:
          “Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)
          These verses foretold the deaths of the people of Babylon. Fortunately not everyone in Babylon (now modern Iraq) fell by the sword or had their children dashed to pieces or their wives raped. If we believe these words as God inspired, then the killing of children and the raping of wives must also come as an inspiration from the Supreme Being.

          Actually, we must recognize that God has said what would happen, using the language of the human author and audience.

          Saying what would occur does not mean God made it occur. But neither does it NOT mean God did NOT make it occur.

          In this case, God said He would stir up the Medes against those who were ruthless (those in then Babylon). But while He stirred them up and told of what would happen, this does not mean He made them do what they did.

          But regardless, of that, I see nothing wrong with recognizing that God is a righteous and holy God who will punish those who do not obey Him. In the Old Testament, we see concrete examples of spiritual truths (such as the need for a sacrifice to avert the wrath of God against those who sin). In the New Testament, we see more spiritual examples of the same truths.

          I don’t doubt your faith – I doubt your methods. You say ”You either dont know how to read what I am writing or you dont understand the meaning of patronizing.” I understand you quite well and, in my book, speaking on behalf of others is patronising (even though you see it as being in agreement) because in your zeal and cleverness of argument – not that I believe you have an acceptable argument because you just trot out Bible text after Bible text. You don’t deal with the social implications of what you are saying, nor the experiences of those on this site except those who agree with you.

          I’ve been bi and I’ve been a witch. I know the social implications of speaking out against sin. Its much more acceptable to be politically correct. Yet, I still teach what God says. I expect one day to be put into prison for it.

          I once wrote to you: ”Nobody would have defended the homosexual citizen, wherever they are, until they themselves rose up in anger against their families, their friends, their religious teachers, their politicians – in fact their nearest and dearest and were forced to create or become visible as ”The Gay Community”.

          Of course people who were not homosexuals have defended homosexuals – otherwise that minority would never have been recognized nor given the attention they have garnered.

          We have had to put up with such derogatory terms as ”social deviants”, ”queer’, ”psychologically sick”, ”an abomination”, ”poofters” etc., etc., from people who say they are friends of Jesus Christ and love them.

          Yes, some people have been rude or worse. But this does not change whether the actions they condemned are against what God has said or not.

          I believe in the Gospel of Christ and like every other person on the face of this earth have to work out my faith ”in fear and trembling” – common to those of us of a Christian faith.” You never made one comment on this.

          If you know the gospel of Christ, then you know you must change and turn to God and have deeds appropriate to that change.
          Acts 26:20

          20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turnto God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

          If you know Christ, then you know you must obey Christ:
          John 3:36

          36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life ; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

          Indeed, Christ is the source of salvation for those who obey Him.
          Hebrews 5:9

          and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

          I hope you follow what God has said to do and left sin behind. Christ gave Himself so we could be purified – do you think we are free to turn to (or continue in) sin?
          Titus 2:12-14

          12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to livesensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and theappearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

          Where is free will involved in your ”take it or leave it” attitude. There is only a threat but you constantly cloak it in the love of God………..????

          It is your free will is to take or leave what God has written. But God will judge those who ignore His word and those who choose to not obey Him.

          • wbmore – you’ve done it again! The term ”political correctness” is only acknowledged in some parts of Western society and I know I could never be accused of political correctness.

            You judge the ‘condition’ of same-sex attraction as sin (along with Biblical references) with no reference to psychological research and observation, or the emotional health of the individual homosexual and concentrate on the sexual activities of some homosexuals omitting the possibility of love between people of the same sex. Because of society’s attitude it has always been a taboo subject. You totally disregard the inhumane treatment right up to the present day of various societies of homosexuals and your contribution just adds to it, even though you say it is the ‘truth’ that’s important.

            However, there is now in some areas greater understanding and tolerance towards the homosexual – the Christian Church with all its talk about ‘love’ and ‘forgiveness’ is sadly lacking in tolerance. Some Christians try to be understanding but they too are intimidated by the mixed messages they derive either from families, society, scripture or preachers

            As I said in earlier objections to your stance, the Gay Community owes the Christian Church, or any other Abrahamic religions nothing when it comes to social acceptance. They have been the greatest persecutors and fear mongerers of all. It wasn’t until Gay men and women took up their own cause that society had to listen and that will be the experience of all Gay men and women who live under oppression. From my position as a Gay Christian, the response from the Church has crippled so much of my attempt to reach the Gay Community by concentrating on one aspect of an individual’s life and you know human failure is made up of many more things than sex!

            • Winstone,

              Just because the term is not used everywhere does not mean it does not apply everywhere. It is VERY politically correct in our societies to be pro-gay rather than call homosexual sex a sin.

              I dont judge homosexual attraction as a condition nor as a sin. I reiterate what the Bible has said – having sex with someone of the same sex is sin. GOD said it is sin.

              Whether something is a sin is quite different as to whether people agree with it being a sin. It is also does not matter whether there is attraction or love or friendship between people – said behavior is wrong in God’s eyes. The alcoholic loves drinking – but it harms the individual and society. The kleptomaniac and the pyromaniac love the things they love, yet we still consider doing the things they do wrong. But whether we consider those things wrong or not does not affect whether they are sins in God’s eyes.

              Research is man’s study of what can be observed. It can be (and has been) stilted towards particular point of view (sometimes purposefully and sometimes not), and used to try to justify what the researchers wanted to justify. And there is plenty of research showing bad effects as well as good effect of homosexual sex/lifestyle. But even if all the research were correct, it would not change that GOD has said to not do it. It may be that some people become homosexual because they were abused or neglected as children. It may be that some people are born as homosexuals. But how or why one becomes homosexual is unimportant in relation to whether God has said to do have homosexual sex or not. Who knows whether those people were born that way because of the sins of the person’s ancestors, or whether it was so God can gain glory from it when He changes them (as when Jesus healed the man who had been born blind)? But the reason why someone is a homosexual does not relate to whether God has said it a sin to have homosexual sex.

              It boils down to whether a person considers himself and his desires are more important than God and what God has said.

              For someone to want to remove from the Bible things God has said about a particular subject or ignore what God has said about a particular subject or outright rebel against it or deny it (even if one has support of nations or groups of people or research) proves that person considers himself more important than God.

              You are stuck on how people have been and are treated today. But how people treat others does not change whether homosexual sex is a sin.

              You confuse agreement with tolerance. Almost everyone in our societies tolerate homosexuals having sex. But that does not affect whether God has said it is a sin.

              Yes, people are much more than their sexual desires or sexual behavior. But when one comes to faith in Christ, one must leave behind sin. Murderers must stop murdering; liars must stop lying, etc.

              If someone claims to be a follower of Christ yet refuses to leave their sin, God will not be pleased with them.
              1 Corinthians 10

              1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
              6 Now these things occurred as examples[a] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.”[b] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

              11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

              14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

              And if someone teaches things which god against what God has said, they will be judged more harshly.
              James 3:1

              Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

              I urge you to leave homosexual sex behind and follow Christ in truth and obedience.

              • wbmore – We as Christians claim that God’s moral principles are perfect and therefore absolute. Christian behavior, on the other hand, tells a different story. The 10 Commandments absolutely prohibit lying, killing, coveting another’s property such as his wife or concubines, mistreating slaves, and worshiping graven images. Christians are happy to lie and even kill when it helps promote the Christianity Meme. Most Christians no longer consider their wives as property. Most Christians find it immoral to keep concubines or slaves. Finally, where would Christianity be without the graven image of Christ on the cross? The Bible has all manner of antiquated moral principles that Christians no longer follow. Consider how the Bible advocates the stoning to death of children who misbehave. When was the last time anyone followed that principle and wasn’t considered a complete nut? Nobody reads the Bible in the language, Aramaic! Clearly, Christian moral principles are changing and not absolute. Neither can an immutable God govern them.

                Madmen, political leaders and Christian militants have all justified their own violent actions under the belief that if they think God wants it, then they can therefore do it regardless of the cost to society. The Dark Ages, Europe’s darkest centuries, were ravaged in ignorance and blood under this type of rule. It is dangerous indeed to assume that we know what God wants or that God’s whims are moral. Popes and leaders of the Crusades would often use this logic.

                Once more, “Abrahamic religions have contributed to the most negative and destructive attitudes towards sexual issues, especially homosexuality. Christian and Islamic groups are the most vocal assailants on any legal or societal moves towards tolerance and equality. The liberal wings of some of these religions have adapted to the wide (European) acceptance of homosexuality. Many traditional religions reject the scientific, medical and psychological knowledge that we have gained about sexuality and regard homosexuality as “unnatural”, a “choice” or a “moral evil”. These religions are themselves immoral and evil in their attitude, causing hatred, bigotry, violence and oppression in the name of God. Homosexual communities have become accustomed to the ranting of religious fundamentalists and traditionalists, and this causes a strong anti-religious resentment amongst them.”

                According to statistics from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Christians make up almost 80 percent of the prison population. Atheists make up about 0.2 percent. It is to be admitted that these data are not published in a scientific journal, but I think it is safe to conclude that the godless do not fill prisons. Published studies do indicate that a child’s risk of sexual abuse by a family member increases as the family’s religious denomination becomes more conservative, that is, when the teachings of scriptures and other doctrines are taken more literally. Similarly, the probability of wife abuse increases with the rigidity of a church’s teachings pertaining to gender roles and hierarchy. Even observers from the Christian side have expressed dismay that the current dominance of evangelical Christianity in America has not translated into a strengthening of the nation’s moral character or the characters of evangelical Christians themselves.

                Divorce statistics are sometimes a shock for Christians. The average divorce rate for born-again type Christians (27%) and others (24%) are both higher than that for atheism, which is 21%. Empirically, atheists are more devoted to each other and commit to more stable relationship patterns than theists, yet the theists are the ones who say they stand for family values. Christian theologians have themselves expressed concern over their own rates of divorce and other marital problems such as wifebeating, which are mostly the same as the rates of non-Christians – and stricter Christians have worse rates. There is a saying that those who shout loudest are the least capable. The Christian Churches shout loudly about love but… atheists are more capable. Seriously though, perhaps it is that atheists only get married if they’re sure, while Christians feel pressurized so sometimes marry prematurely in relationships that aren’t permanent. Christian culture can exert unnatural pressure on relationships.”

                You see society is dealing with the disasters caused by some fanatical Christians. We are ALL sinners and there is so much more about the human condition that causes me as a homosexual to blush. I have to also consider such statements as the follow:

                ”Christian moral teachings, as derived from the Bible, are a contradictory mess of historical myths about human nature combined with a pseudo-historical account which produces a confusing, weird and inappropriate set of morals. From sex abuse to Christian attitudes towards women, gays, blacks, slavery, Jews and to human dignity in general, Christianity has highlighted and encoded human evil at its worst. It is only against Christian moral theory that Christian heroes have battled to do good. The Christian concept of original sin – the punishment of future generations for the sins of parents, and God’s example behaviour in the Bible, are monstrously immoral, and other traditional sets of values such as the seven deadly sins and ten commandments are, when you actually inspect them, more suited to barbarians than civilised man. Christianity’s best morals happen to also be those espoused by nearly every other religion and philosophy and as such, in itself, Christianity is morally worthless and has contributed nothing to the world.”

                Finally, sex is a power beyond us even as we accept that we have a responsibility to control it. Its goodness must always be affirmed even as its dangers are highlighted. Its holy, sacred character should always be taught even as its earthiness should never be denigrated. We must be clear that it is meant to be sacrament even as it is meant to be playful, that it is meant to bring children into this world even as it is meant to express love, that it is meant to be healthily enjoyed even as it needs to be carefully guarded, and that it is not something before which we should stand in unhealthy fear even as we surround it with enough taboos to properly safeguard its meaning and our own emotional safety.

                Sexuality might be compared to a high-voltage electrical wire. The 50,000 volts inside of that wire can bring light and heat to a building, but there are two risks: First, we may be so afraid of its dangers that we never connect our house to it. We then deprive ourselves of its light and heat. The second danger is the opposite: This powerful energy is safe only if its raw power is channeled through the right transformers and safely encased in proper insulation, otherwise we risk a deadly fire, inside the house and inside the psyche.

                Conservatives tend to struggle with the first danger, liberals with the latter.

                • winstone,

                  You apparently, based upon what you have already written, do not claim that God’s moral principles are perfect or absolute, so I don’t understand why you would start out claiming you do. It automatically calls into question the rest of what you have to say.

                  Whether people are able to meet the ideal requirements God laid out has no bearing on whether God has said to do or not do something.

                  Whether people agree with what God has said or not has no bearing on whether God will judge people for doing what He said to not do.

                  Whether people ignore what God has said to not do, or to do, has no bearing on whether God will judge people for ignoring what He has said and doing what they want to do.

                  The Law was given to the Israelite nation. It laid out what God has said is good and bad dealing with a multitude of situations, as well as providing a way for the people of Israel to be obviously different than the nations around them. He also laid out how the nation of Israel should have dealt with those things God said is bad. However, the Law has been fulfilled, so we are under a new covenant, and are not under the Law (Matthew 5:13-20; John 19:30; Colossians 2:13-16; Galatians 3:23-26; Romans 7:4-12; Ephesians 2:13-16; Hebrews 7:18-19). Because of that, we are not required to mete out the punishment the people of Israel were called to deliver when they were under the Law.

                  Yet, while we are not under the Law, it still teaches us of the need for faith in Christ and it still speaks to what God considers right and wrong (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:19-24). In fact, many of them have been re-iterated in the New Testament.

                  What God has said to do or not do is NOT changing. You can choose to accept what God has said or not.

                  EVERYONE can use anything to justify their poor attitudes and behavior – whether someone is a deist, a theist, a Christian, or an atheist. This has no bearing on what God has said He will judge.

                  You are free to consider Christianity immoral and evil – yet in doing so, you set yourself up in the place of God – this is the mistake Satan made (Isaiah 14:12-14). You are free to believe there is no God. You are free to believe that God has said only what you want him to have said. But God will judge each person, regardless of how you feel about it.

                  Just because someone considers themselves a Christian does not mean they are. Christ was very clear that many will claim to have been Christians and HE will say HE NEVER KNEW them. Only those who do God’s will will enter heaven.

                  Matthew 7:21-23

                  21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

                  I think this is the case for those who choose to ignore what God has said and do what they wish – such as lie, have sex outside of marriage, be drunks, have homosexual sex, etc.

                  I am not saying we will be perfect upon receiving saving faith. Nor am I saying the way said faith will be expressed will be the same for each person. Some people will make huge changes immediately, others will make a small one. But if we have true faith we will persevere in it and we will continue to make changes (repentance) away from sin and towards God and these changes will be expressed in our lives.

                  You can try to claim that Christians are evil and the source of all problems in the world, but that ignores the truth.

                  As a someone who claims to be a Christian, you have a choice, will the world who hates God be your guide or will the God who hates sin be your guide?

                  Will you repent, turn to God, and have deeds appropriate to repentance? Or will you continue to live life the way YOU think you should live it, instead of the way God has said?

  64. Sorry, but I still don’t see where Christ or God touched on the matter of homosexuality. Neither of them talked about it. The church identified what constituted as “sexual immorality.” They are the ones who added in homosexuality. Not Christ…not God. All of the verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, are laws from letters written by people of the church. Also, if you haven’t noticed, most of those verses deal not only with just homosexuality, but also homosexual rape and prostitution, which is sinful even for heterosexuals. We see nothing about true, pure love between two same sex couples.

    • Brandon,

      You may not see it, or you may want to deny it, or you may not want to accept it, but God was clear in the Old Testament about how same gender sex is wrong (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13), and this is PART of what is referred to in the New Testament when Jesus (Mark 7:20-23) and the elders of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 15; Acts 21:25) and Paul (1 Corinthians 5:1) spoke about when using the term pornea. Indeed, Paul was clear that those who practice homosexual sex would not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9). Indeed, Paul said of the Law in 1 Timothy 1:9-11:

      9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

      Yes, some verses which mention homosexual sex also mention other things such as prostitution, but they are separate things.

      Paul was also clear that sexual immorality is why each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband: 1 Corinthians 7:2

      2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

    • Thank you Brandon! You have formulated your objections to the position taken up mainly by wbmore to understand same sex relationships. If you read through the tirade against my position you will see that the homosexual is compared with murderers, cleptomaniacs etc. by wbmore. Because there is strong disagreement without the slightest understanding, he uses the full force of anything and everything he can find in the Bible to portrait the homosexual as virtually less than human, an abomination, deviant etc. My own faith in the power of Jesus Christ in my life is questioned because I am and defend the rights of the homosexual whether they are of the Faith or not! He forgets that my life is made up of many other things but my dignity is linked to Jesus Christ and who I am in Him as a homosexual!

      The Jews historically have been vilified by The Church. The blacks have suffered enslavement because of The Church. Women have been second class citizens because of The Church. Children disenfranchised because of The Church. Torture has been acceptable by The Church and all of the aforementioned have through struggle been overcome. Now we are trying to understand same-sex relationships and it is that Church(es) who are deciding what’s what! How’s that for a barrel of laughs. The historical church has had to learn the hard way and it has taken centuries to liberate itself by The Truth from its innate cruelty and judgment on its own adherents.

      Brandon I wish you love, joy and peace with your Saviour and yourself!

      Today is World Aids Day – 1st December 2011.

      Kindest wishes, Winstone – London, UK

      • Winstone,

        You seem to think that because I disagree with you that I do not understand. I think I understand your position, I just think its wrong.

        You want to have rights. You do.
        You seem to think I think less of someone who is homosexual, I don’t.
        You want to be able to be a practicing homosexual. You can.
        You seem to think that you can throw out parts of the Bible you do not agree with. You can – but there are consequences.
        You want to claim you have faith in Christ and can still do what you want to do, You can – but God has said He will judge those who disobey Him.

        You seem to think other people treating a segment of people wrong justifies the behavior of the people being treated poorly – it does not.

        The fact that some people treat others wrongly does not negate what God has said.
        The fact that some people disagree with what God has said does not negate what God has said.
        The fact that some people disobey God in no waynegates what God has said.

        I am not the one redefining what God has said – you are.
        I am not the one who disagrees with what God has said – you are.
        I am not the one who will be judged because of disobedience to God – you are.

        [edited to correct typo]

        • ”You seem to think that because I disagree with you that I do not understand. I think I understand your position, I just think its wrong.”

          No, you believe you are right, otherwise you would not pursue your line of argument totally ignoring historical Christianity’s cruel and barbaric attitude not only to homosexuals but to Jews, Blacks, Slavery, Women and Children when The Church – Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant had power. All of those groups apart from children were never granted their rights without a fight and today it is unthinkable to talk about ”stinking Jews”, ”inferior black races” ”women should keep silent” or ”belong to men”. If the historical Church were wrong about these matters, then they could be wrong about homosexuals.

          ”You want to have rights. You do.”

          Only because homosexuals took up the fight themselves. They have no one to thank except themselves. Laws exist in toleration of same sex relationships but the spirit of the law has not wholly filtered through to the societies where a level of tolerance exists.

          ”You seem to think I think less of someone who is homosexual, I don’t.”

          Oh but you do! No one would write with such eloquence and conviction as you do without a sense of certainty of the truth of your position backed up by relevant Bible references. You believe that I am beyond the pale i.e. lost, which is beyond the mercy of God.

          ”You want to be able to be a practicing homosexual. You can.”

          Your terms of reference ”a practicing homosexual” sound derogatory. This reminds me of someone saying: I don’t mind you being a Christian, but don’t practice it. Yes, I can be a homosexual without the law coming down on me only because homosexuals fought for their rights. I am sure in another situation in your zeal you lock us up and justify it from scripture.

          ”You seem to think that you can throw out parts of the Bible you do not agree with. You can – but there are consequences.”

          No I do not think anything of the sort. We are disputing your attitude based on scripture and the historical hysterical response to homosexuality throughout the history of The Church and nothing else. Lying, cheating, adultery, stealing, not keeping the sabbath, envy, purity, bearing false witness etc. have to be dealt with by me. I’ve thrown nothing out. If you mean questioning the teaching – even The Bible – then I agree I dispute certain things – that’s normal and healthy. What do you want me to do – pay lip service to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without conviction.

          ”You want to claim you have faith in Christ and can still do what you want to do, You can – but God has said He will judge those who disobey Him.”

          That takes the biscuit! As I said before we are talking about same sex attraction and sexual responses in a loving relationship. I am working out my faith in fear and trembling – I don’t know about you – you are so certain so perhaps that bit doesn’t apply to you.

          I feel I understand St Paul here under Romans Ch. 7:

          ”14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

          21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

          Then follows the life in the spirit with words of encouragement:

          Romans Ch. 8 – 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

          So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

          Just like you I have to consider what all of this means. I do not pick and choose.

          ”You seem to think other people treating a segment of people wrong justifies the behavior of the people being treated poorly – it does not.”

          No I do not but I do believe the so-called custodians of ‘truth’ and ‘wisdom’ have a responsibility to defend everyone. You have changed sides since your conversion and persecute what you consider to be ‘a sinner’ – you do not bring light and life you bring judgement and censorship and shame. You are hurting others more than healing them – you do not bring dignity and respect and honour because of your hangup about homosexuals. Our salvation comes in what Christ did for us, not what we do for Him. You would be better occupied in pointing out the immorality of excessive wealth, the production of weopons, trafficking in children, homelessness etc., etc., instead of obsessing about homosexuals.

          ”The fact that some people treat others wrongly does not negate what God has said.”

          It does when those people speak of the love of God and quite willingly have put them to death, or had them arrested, imprisoned, tortured. That has been our Church in the past and obviously its attitude now, but it does not have the power to eliminate these offenders now.

          ”The fact that some people disagree with what God has said does not negate what God has said.”

          I agree. But we have the right to investigate, compare, analyse etc. and not just pay lip service to it. Why should my salvation be endangered because I am not convinced of a truth or believe in an explanation of that truth. You are basing my entire moral stance on the fact that I am a homosexual ergo not an honest person.

          ”The fact that some people disobey God negates what God has said.”

          Agree. (Yawn)

          ”I am not the one redefining what God has said – you are.”

          You are so presumptuous in stating that. I have raised objections to your stance on homosexuality and it is entirely unimportant to you what I think. I am not redefining anything. I am being as honest as I can with my own experience of Christianity and I am not afraid to question our books, particularly where contradiction occurs. I thought it was possibly only Muslims who had such an attitude to questioning of their ‘holy’ book!

          ”I am not the one who disagrees with what God has said – you are.”

          That must make you feel kind of smug. I love God – the Christian God – Father, Son and Holy Spirit – and I object to you as a – dare I say it – brother passing such judgement over me. But I know you do not care because you think you are so right.

          ”I am not the one who will be judged because of disobedience to God – you are.”

          I think your sin of pride will do God just nicely thank you.

          ”For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” It ain’t over till its over!

          • Wintone,

            I wrote

            ”You seem to think that because I disagree with you that I do not understand. I think I understand your position, I just think its wrong.”

            No, you believe you are right, otherwise you would not pursue your line of argument totally ignoring historical Christianity’s cruel and barbaric attitude not only to homosexuals but to Jews, Blacks, Slavery, Women and Children when The Church – Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant had power. All of those groups apart from children were never granted their rights without a fight and today it is unthinkable to talk about ”stinking Jews”, ”inferior black races” ”women should keep silent” or ”belong to men”. If the historical Church were wrong about these matters, then they could be wrong about homosexuals.

            Of course I believe I am right. You believe you are right also. Its ok for us to believe we are right. Its ok to disagree. I just think it has eternal consequences for you.

            I am not responsible for what others have done.
            But as I have said, how people treat others does not change what God has said.

            ”You want to have rights. You do.”

            Only because homosexuals took up the fight themselves. They have no one to thank except themselves. Laws exist in toleration of same sex relationships but the spirit of the law has not wholly filtered through to the societies where a level of tolerance exists.

            Just as there were white abolitionists, and non-slaves who worked to stop slavery, so too were and are there heterosexuals in support of treating homosexuals with respect.

            I wrote:

            ”You seem to think I think less of someone who is homosexual, I don’t.”

            Oh but you do! No one would write with such eloquence and conviction as you do without a sense of certainty of the truth of your position backed up by relevant Bible references. You believe that I am beyond the pale i.e. lost, which is beyond the mercy of God.

            You are telling me what I believe. Now THAT is rich, given what you’ve been accusing me of.

            Thank you for the compliment on my writing style.

            But no, I do NOT believe you are beyond the mercy of God. I think all of us can repent and turn to God and have deeds appropriate to repentance. I think if anyone continues to deny what God has said, then they will find themselves hearing “I never knew you” when judgement time comes. But that time is not yet – we just dont know when it will be for any of us, which is why it is so imperative that those who do not trust and obey Christ begin to do so.

            I wrote:

            ”You want to be able to be a practicing homosexual. You can.”

            Your terms of reference ”a practicing homosexual” sound derogatory. This reminds me of someone saying: I don’t mind you being a Christian, but don’t practice it. Yes, I can be a homosexual without the law coming down on me only because homosexuals fought for their rights. I am sure in another situation in your zeal you lock us up and justify it from scripture.

            My reference to “practicing homosexual” was not meant to be derogatory. I apologize. Substitute “non-celibate homosexual”.

            I have no desire to lock up anyone nor see anyone harmed – I only want everyone to come to true saving faith in Christ – to the point where they obey Christ.

            I wrote;

            ”You seem to think that you can throw out parts of the Bible you do not agree with. You can – but there are consequences.”

            No I do not think anything of the sort.

            You have quoted from obviously non-Christian articles and called the Christian religion and parts of scripture immoral and evil and antiquated. Perhaps that was not your intent?
            You seem to consider homosexual sex to be moral and acceptable to God. This is ignoring what God has said. So it certainly seems like you are throwing out parts of the Bible you do not agree with.

            We are disputing your attitude based on scripture and the historical hysterical response to homosexuality throughout the history of The Church and nothing else. Lying, cheating, adultery, stealing, not keeping the sabbath, envy, purity, bearing false witness etc. have to be dealt with by me. I’ve thrown nothing out. If you mean questioning the teaching – even The Bible – then I agree I dispute certain things – that’s normal and healthy. What do you want me to do – pay lip service to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without conviction.

            You might be disputing my attitude, but I am simply telling you what Scripture says.

            It actually appears you are supporting homosexual sex, rather than seeking what the Bible states.

            As for what I want you to do? I want you to take God at His word, repent and turn to God and have deeds appropriate to repentance. If you HAVE done so, as you said, then I want you to continue moving towards Christ in obedience and leave behind habitual sin in the way the apostle John as said to do.

            I wrote:

            ”You want to claim you have faith in Christ and can still do what you want to do, You can – but God has said He will judge those who disobey Him.”

            That takes the biscuit! As I said before we are talking about same sex attraction and sexual responses in a loving relationship. I am working out my faith in fear and trembling – I don’t know about you – you are so certain so perhaps that bit doesn’t apply to you.

            You might want to throw love into the equation, but I am saying what scripture states: same gender sex is wrong in God’s eyes.

            You wrote:

            I feel I understand St Paul here under Romans Ch. 7:

            ”14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

            21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

            Then follows the life in the spirit with words of encouragement:

            Romans Ch. 8 – 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

            Just like you I have to consider what all of this means. I do not pick and choose.

            Let me ask a question (BTW, that reminds me, you seem to want me to answer your questions, yet you ignore mine), If nothing will separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, shall you continue to live in a pattern of sin?
            Romans 6:1-2

            1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

            And
            1 John 3:6-9

            6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

            and
            1 John 5:16-19

            16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. 18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

            Scripture says a someone who is saved will not continue in a pattern of sin.

            I wrote:

            ”You seem to think other people treating a segment of people wrong justifies the behavior of the people being treated poorly – it does not.”

            No I do not but I do believe the so-called custodians of ‘truth’ and ‘wisdom’ have a responsibility to defend everyone. You have changed sides since your conversion and persecute what you consider to be ‘a sinner’ – you do not bring light and life you bring judgement and censorship and shame. You are hurting others more than healing them – you do not bring dignity and respect and honour because of your hangup about homosexuals. Our salvation comes in what Christ did for us, not what we do for Him. You would be better occupied in pointing out the immorality of excessive wealth, the production of weopons, trafficking in children, homelessness etc., etc., instead of obsessing about homosexuals.

            I have not persecuted anyone. I am stating what Scripture states. There is a huge difference.
            I am not obsessing about homosexuals – in fact, I usually dont think about homosexuals or anything along those lines. But you all seem to like to argue, so I keep plugging away, sharing scripture.

            I wrote:

            ”The fact that some people treat others wrongly does not negate what God has said.”

            It does when those people speak of the love of God and quite willingly have put them to death, or had them arrested, imprisoned, tortured. That has been our Church in the past and obviously its attitude now, but it does not have the power to eliminate these offenders now.

            No. You are missing the point. People who do anything (good or bad) do not change what God has said. Something is either a sin or it is not – regardless of whether people agree, disagree, sin, treat people well, treat people poorly, etc. Something is a sin because God has said it is, not for any other reason.

            I wrote

            ”The fact that some people disagree with what God has said does not negate what God has said.”

            I agree. But we have the right to investigate, compare, analyse etc. and not just pay lip service to it. Why should my salvation be endangered because I am not convinced of a truth or believe in an explanation of that truth. You are basing my entire moral stance on the fact that I am a homosexual ergo not an honest person.

            NOW you are coming across as seeking truth. earlier you were coming across as condemning what scripture states.
            I agree with you – you need to be convinced (even if you never come to the point where you agree or if you do come to agree with at least some of my position, or if you vehemently disagree with me).
            But seeking truth is different than arguing against what scripture says.

            I wrote:

            ”The fact that some people disobey God negates what God has said.”

            Agree. (Yawn)

            and the purpose of the yawn was?

            ”I am not the one redefining what God has said – you are.”

            You are so presumptuous in stating that. I have raised objections to your stance on homosexuality and it is entirely unimportant to you what I think. I am not redefining anything. I am being as honest as I can with my own experience of Christianity and I am not afraid to question our books, particularly where contradiction occurs. I thought it was possibly only Muslims who had such an attitude to questioning of their ‘holy’ book!

            There is a difference between questioning and trying to find a loophole. It seems to me that many homosexuals (not all) try to find ways to justify what they want to do, rather than look at what the text states and accept it.

            ”I am not the one who disagrees with what God has said – you are.”

            That must make you feel kind of smug. I love God – the Christian God – Father, Son and Holy Spirit – and I object to you as a – dare I say it – brother passing such judgement over me. But I know you do not care because you think you are so right.

            Christ said that if your brother sins, rebuke him.
            Luke 17:3

            So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

            And no I dont feel smug. Actually, it makes me sad for those who do not accept what God has said. See, if you love God, then you will obey Him – this is what scripture states.
            John 14:23-24

            Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will lovethem, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

            1 John 2:4-6

            4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

            I wrote:

            ”I am not the one who will be judged because of disobedience to God – you are.”

            I think your sin of pride will do God just nicely thank you.

            You DO see the irony in you being upset with me for “judging” you and you doing the very thing you accuse me of, dont you?

            ”For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” It ain’t over till its over!

            Yes, Christ came to save, but He is the source of salvation to all who obey.
            Hebrews 5:9

            and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

            And you are most correct – its not over till its over.

        • oops. typo:
          where I wrote

          The fact that some people disobey God negates what God has said.

          I meant to write

          The fact that some people disobey God in no way negates what God has said.

          • wbmoore – Don’t you get up early to deal with the Gays! I hope you realise I do smile sometimes when I am reading your explanations or when I am writing to you. Although I express my indignation at your comments from time to time, I do appreciate your stand for what you believe to be correct behaviour even though I do not accept it. I am amazed at the speed of your spontaneous response from The Bible. I am taking a pause to digest what you have written. The ‘yawn’ was a genuine yawn of tiredness – I am 70 and probably was dealing with one of your responses fairly late at night, even though the computer clock seems to indicate early evening.

            I would also like to know how you manage to separate the sentences when you reply to some of my misgivings. You know, that line that separates. How do you do that?

            2nd Sunday of Advent

            1st reading at Mass:

            Comfort for God’s People

            1 Comfort, comfort my people,
            says your God.
            2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
            and proclaim to her
            that her hard service has been completed,
            that her sin has been paid for,
            that she has received from the LORD’s hand
            double for all her sins.
            3 A voice of one calling:
            “In the wilderness prepare
            the way for the LORD[a];
            make straight in the desert
            a highway for our God.[b]
            4 Every valley shall be raised up,
            every mountain and hill made low;
            the rough ground shall become level,
            the rugged places a plain.
            5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
            and all people will see it together.
            For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

            9 You who bring good news to Zion,
            go up on a high mountain.
            You who bring good news to Jerusalem,[c]
            lift up your voice with a shout,
            lift it up, do not be afraid;
            say to the towns of Judah,
            “Here is your God!”
            10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
            and he rules with a mighty arm.
            See, his reward is with him,
            and his recompense accompanies him.
            11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
            He gathers the lambs in his arms
            and carries them close to his heart;
            he gently leads those that have young.

            2nd Reading at Mass

            8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

            10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

            11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

            14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

            Gospel

            Mark 1 – 1-8
            John the Baptist Prepares the Way
            1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
            “I will send my messenger ahead of you,
            who will prepare your way”[c]—
            3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
            ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
            make straight paths for him.’”[d]

            4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6 John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with[e] water, but he will baptize you with[f] the Holy Spirit.”

            Have a good weekend!
            Winstone

            • Winstone,

              I actually am up between 5 and 6am. I usually lay in bed praying for a while, and then I will read. At 6am, I get my children up and we have morning devotionals while we eat breakfast – sometimes I read a passage of scripture and I teach about it, sometimes just a verse and I try to ask questions about it, sometimes we go through non-biblical books such as Mere Christianity or the Screwtape Letters.

              Thank you for the compliments. I am called to be a teacher. God has given a facility with words. And while I may not recall exactly where scripture says something, I have read the Bible enough (and have done enough word studies and topic studies) to recall about where or approximately the wording, so I am able to locate what I am looking for rather quickly.

              The reason I throw so much scripture out when I am discussing a topic is that this blog is intended to help people learn to learn and apply scripture. Lots of blogs have opinions. I try to go beyond my opinion – and yes, God has used scripture has changed my mind about many things over the years.

              To start a separation/indention, I use the blockquote command: <blockquote> , then what I am separating out, then I close the block of text with a close tag </blockquote> . They are cumulative, so if you put two blockquote tags in a row, it will have two indentions, and you will need two close blockquote tags to end the block of text. also, I use these tags: b, i, u, ul, ol, and li,
              as long with the same tag but with a / in front of the tag to close it. b = bold, i = italics, u = underline, ul = unordered list (not numbered), ol = ordered list (numbered), li = list item (the individual items in a list).

              Thank you for sharing the advent readings….

              Have a good weekend. And God bless you.
              [edited for spelling – thank you Winstone]

              • As I was considering preparing another message this morning, I came across this blog entry I wrote a few years ago. I think it is very applicable to this topic.

                http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/love-and-repentance/

              • wbmoore – Thank you for filling me in a bit about yourself and your use of The Bible (be careful as you called the Bible ‘Bile’ tut! tut! – I’m smiling again. I would also like to test out your instruction so here goes:

                As I was considering preparing another message this morning, I came across this blog entry I wrote a few years ago. I think it is very applicable to this topic.

                Let’s see if that worked!

                It is just coming up to 5 pm here in London – it’s quite a cold November evening but the sky is very clear and already very black.

                I shall be back at some point. Thank you for your blessing and may God bless you and your family as well!

  65. Wbmoore, I would like to share 4 links with you that look at this from the opposite viewpoint. Sadly, I can’t seem to find the one link that I REALLY wanted to share, but these four are good enough. If you’re going to arguing against something, be prepared to read articles from both sides. I would really like to see your opinion on them (as i’m sure you have a life, I don’t expect an immediate response. Sometimes it takes time to get through these. Just be sure to read them with an open mind. Reading ANYTHING with a closed, biased mind does nobody any good. So when you get a chance, read them and give me your thoughts:

    ~http://www.twopaths.com/faq_homosexuality.htm

    ~http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    ~http://www.religioustolerance.org/pornea.htm

    ~http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
    (it’s ok, I didn’t even read all the sub links. I read through the major ones, but the links inside the links, I didn’t even bother as I just haven’t had the time to go through all of that. I will eventually, though).

    • Brandon

      -http://www.twopaths.com/
      This is probably the most balanced discussion of the issue I have seen.

      I agree with much of what is discussed on this page. However, I disagree with this, “In Old Testament times, homosexual activity was strongly associated with idolatrous cult prostitution”.

      The reason is that the idea that God’s reason for saying to not have homosexual sex was because of temple worship ignores the context of the verses which state to not do that. Leviticus 18 and 20 both discuss immoral sexual relations, not temple prostitution. Yes, verse 21 deals with offering children as sacrifice to molek, but given the context, this likely has to do with sex as well.

      I also disagree with the limitation of judgement. Yes, Jesus said to not judge lest you be judged, but He also said to judge rightly (John 7:24). Yes, we need to worry about the sin in our own lives before we try to deal with the same sin in someone else’s life ( Matthew 7:1-5). But There is a difference between discernment and judging someone. Jesus is clear that if our brother sins, we are to rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him (Luke 17:3-4).

      -http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
      I agree with most of his first four premises.

      I agree with almost everything he said, except what was considered acceptable (there is a difference between something being allowed, discussed, tolerated, and acceptable). I also disagree with his idea that science should necessarily cause us to reexamine scripture. Also, just because we no longer physically punish people because of certain behavior (and we should not) does not mean God has changed His mind on whether that behavior is acceptable.

      Also, concerning Sodom, I think it is obvious that at least part of its problem was that the poor and needy were not helped (Ezekiel 16:49). But we know it was not simply for that reason that God destroyed it, as God warned Israel in Isaiah 1:10-20, speaking as if Israel were Sodom. In fact, we know from Ezekiel 16:50 that the citizens of Sodom committed abominations. We see in 2 Peter 2:6-8 that Sodom was made an example for the ungodly, after He rescued Lot from the oppression of their sensuous (licentious) behavior. It seems the author wants to ignore that the men were going to act wickedly with the angels were going “have relations” with them – and there was certainly no mention of worship or temple prostitution (as some want to believe) in the context of the text. He wants to make it out to be about power – but regardless whether the author wants to consider it a homosexual act, it would have involved men having sex with what they thought were men, and that is what was condemned in Leviticus 18 and 20 and called wicked in Genesis 19. We know from Jude 1:7 that at least part of the sin of Sodom is that they “indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh”.

      Also, concerning Leviticus being a holiness code written only for priests, the author is incorrect. The laws were intended for all of Israel, as is easily seen in Leviticus 4:2, which tells Moses to “speak to the sons of Israel” – not just judges. Leviticus 4:22 talks of leaders. Leviticus 5:1 speaks of any person. Leviticus 11: 2 tells Moses and Aaron to “speak to the sons of Israel”. And as for whether Jesus and Paul said the holiness code in Leviticus applies, yes and no. Jesus and Paul taught the Law was fulfilled, and so people who believe are not under the Law (for they have been brought to faith in Christ, part of the Law’s purpose). But Jesus and Paul spoke against sexual immorality, and the elders of the church of Jerusalem said that the things taught in the Law don’t apply EXCEPT: “You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” This sexual immorality goes back to what God had already said in the Old Testament concerning inappropriate sexual behavior.

      I also disagree with: “people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God.” I think we are responsible for following the moral and ethical standards laid out by God – particularly in the New Testament.

      While I agree that Genesis 38 says nothing about homosexual sex, the author wrote, “it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to masturbate or even to interrupt coitus (to halt sex with your spouse before ejaculation as an act of birth control)” But he is wrong concerning the context of the text. The context indicates that Onan was supposed to fulfill his duty and impregnate his brother’s wife, but instead “he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother” (Genesis 38:1-10). He is making assumptions that God was against the spilling of semen and why, but in fact it was that a duty to leave offspring for his brother was not met. His interpretation of the text is wrong – and not for the first time in my reading of what he wrote.

      As for the authors interpretation of Romans 1, yes, God gave the people who refused to acknowledge and worship God over to sexual depravity. But what the author is ignoring is that the text tells us what that sexual depravity was – homosexual sex.

      I also disagree with his treatise on 1 Corinthians 6:9 AND 1 Timothy 1:10. While the first use of the term “homosexual” may have been in 1958, the older translations all taught the same thing.
      I think the best translations for the words in question consider the word malokois to be those who engage passively homosexual sex, and arsenokoitai to be those who engage actively in homosexual sex (ie, both partners) – this is found in the following translations: Complete Jewish Bible and Lexham English Bible, and Darby Translation. The King James Version used the words ‘effeminate’ and ‘sodomite’ to mean the same things. The Darby translation was written in 1867, published in 1890. The King James Version was begun in 1604 and completed in 1611.

      I also disagree with ” It is NOT our task to judge one another”. We are required to make righteous judgements and encourage our brothers to not sin (Luke 17:3-4; John 7:24).

      I also disagree with the idea that sexual orientation was unknown in BIble times.There have been many same sex relationships through out history. This Of course they were. Alexander The Great and Hephaistion, of whom it is said were life long lovers, would be known (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaistion). As would Emperor Hadrian and his lover Antonius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous). It was even believed that Julius Ceasar had a long time homosexual relationship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar). It even may be that Octavious had a relationship with Julius Ceasar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus). It was so common that I’m sure these were not the only homosexual lovers known in the Greek and Roman worlds into which the New Testament was written. So of COURSE homosexual relationships were known in Bible times. And in the same way there have been homosexual relationships, people have always known there are some people who prefer people of the same gender.

      I agree with the author that the [human] authors are authorities in matters of faith. where I disagree, is that GOD wrote what He wanted written through the human authors. God is the authority. The Bible IS the final authority in matters of faith and life in all areas it touches – including what is acceptable behavior, sexual and otherwise.

      The author states, “Homosexuality is neither a sickness nor a sin.” But God is clear that homosexual sex is a sin.

      I wholeheartedly agree with this: “We may be different, but we can still live together in peace.”

      -http://www.religioustolerance.org/pornea.htm
      every lexicon I have read considers porneia to be illicit sexual intercourse (as defined in the old testament).
      Rather than limiting discussion to pornea, akatharsia, and akathartos, I would like to see more discussion on Malakos and Arsenokoites (1 Corinthians 6:9).

      -http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
      There’s simply too much here to read and discuss. What I have read is well put together, from an obviously pro-homosexual viewpoint. I do not think I saw anything I had not considered or read before. I saw some points of disagreement when dealing Romans 1. Personally, it seems to me that God gave people who did not accept Him and worship Him in truth to various sins, one of which was homosexual sex.

      I think some of the liberal interpretations of the various “major/clobber” and “minor” passages to be really stretching the text.

  66. Sorry, it’s December, not November – must be a senior moment!

  67. I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and found a lot of information to be useful. As a gay man I just wanted to say that sexual prefence is not a choice,v no one chose to be gay. I know for me this is the case. Who would want to go about their life being judged, mocked or looked at different. I didn’t choose this and if I really had the choice I wouldn’t. I can pretend like I’m straight and try to have a normal life but wouldn’t that be replacing one sin for the other. What I mean is if I choose to live like that every day of that life would be a lie to people and to myself. I’m gay and I can’t change that no more than the color of my skin. But back to my previous question who would want to live in fear of what another person might do or say. Are they doing it just to rebel against God or society?

    • Hi,

      Thank you for the kind words.

      I have specifically chosen to not address sexual orientation, because I dont think scripture deals with it. We do not know why people are born the way they are – sometimes it is because what our ancestors have done (Exodus 20:5), or sometimes it is to show the work of God in that persons’s life (John 9:1-12), and who knows if there are other reasons. But I DO know that scripture is clear concerning sex which is unacceptable to God, and that is what I have chosen to address.

      Few people desire to be different (although some certainly do, in rebellion to family or God or both maybe?). But regardless of whether one is created with homosexual tendencies or not, this does not mean people should not follow what God has said to do or not do. Ours is a spiritual warfare against sin and the enemy (Ephesians 6:12). We are to take every thought captive for Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5). This means we are to stop sinful thoughts in our heads and direct our thoughts to things which are pleasing to God. Indeed, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things (Philippians 4:8).

      I have known people who walked in faith and obedience to God and who were delivered from sinful desires, and so long as they continued to walk in obedience and faith, they continued to be free from sinful desires. But if they walk their own path, they began to have sinful desires again. Yet, when they changed and began to rely upon God in that area of life, the desires went away again. This happened to me as well. We CAN choose to obey God or to obey our own feelings. But God has said what will happen to those who follow their own ways instead of the ways of God.

  68. For anyone wanting to stop receiving email updates when new posts or comments are made, I cannot manage your subscriptions, only you can stop the madness. :)

    Each email you receive, be it for a comment or a post, will have a link called ?”Manage Subscriptions”. Click it, log in if needed, and remove my posts or comments from your subscriptions. This will stop the emails of comments and posts.

    • In fact, I have just discovered that if you go to https://subscribe.wordpress.com , if you are not logged, you can enter your email and they will send you how to manage your subscriptions. If you ARE logged in, your subscriptions will be available to you so you can delete or modify them.

  69. Awesome work! To God be the glory, great things He has done and continues to do! I thank God for using you to plant seeds and change lives!

  70. Jesus did speak against homosexuality.
    It was Jesus who spake unto Abraham in the 18th chapter of genesis.
    he was not called Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ means the Anointed Saviour. His hour to come as the only acceptable Lamb of sacrifice was still far off.
    He made it clear with Manoah that his name was hidden.
    the problem is that people can not tell who is Jesus and who is Jehovah in the old testament. As David said, The Lord said unto my Lord.
    What was the sin manifested after the Lord (Jesus) spake unto Abraham?
    The men wanted to know the angels who appeared as men.
    The issue is not gang rape but that their minds were so perverted not even 10 straight men remained.

  71. Yes Jesus did when he spake unto Abraham. When he said the cry of the sin of Sodom reached heaven the sin manifested at the angel’s arrival was the men wanting to know them. Or in other words have sex with them.

    Jesus is not mentioned by name as Jesus Christ means the Anointed Savior. His hour had not yet come as such and his name was hidden or a secret as he told Manoah.

    The problem is that many cannot tell the difference between Jesus and his Father in the old testament. As David said “The Lord” said unto “my Lord”.

  72. Wow. I’m blown away by this blog. I’m disappointed that Kryp quit posting. I hope he is doing ok.

    I spent roughly two hours reading this blog and I have come away with much more knowledge. Thank you, wbmoore, for obeying God and sharing the gospel. I was truly blessed by this. It is my only wish that I can know God’s word AND apply it according to His will and not my own.

    • Hi! Thank you for your kind words. I was thinking about Kryp just the other day. I pray he is doing well also.

      I pray the same thing as you for my own life.

  73. Hi WB,
    and hi to Jenny, Winstone and all the others who have made this page such an interesting, vibrant place!

    Sorry I haven’t posted in so long. I recently reached an apex in my sporting interests and have been busy doing a lot of great stuff I never imagined being asked to do. It’s been a roller coaster year.
    I’ve also been exploring myself spiritually and figuring out what it is I actually believe. Also figuring out where that fits in with the (Pseudo)Catholic culture I live in, the christianity I was brought up in and the established faiths of people I am likely to meet in this world.
    It is my belief that the bible is a book written by men. As is the Koran, The Book of Mormon and all the other texts. They are full of interesting lessons and often interesting historical accounts. But, I believe, ther have all been written by men and in many cases changed through the generations or altered in translation from their original language.

    Despite most people in the world believing we are created and watched over by a God I have found no evidence for this to be true either in the world in general or in my spiritual introspection. I also see no evidence for the alternative theory supplied by atheists that the universe simply occured for no reason out of nothing.

    I believe that nobody who has ever lived knows what happens when we die. That could be because we lack the information or because we actually lack, certainly at this stage in our evolution, the capacity to understand. If you walk out to an ant in your garden and ask him to imagine what it would be like to live in the Arctic he would not understand.

    I believe a vital part of existance to seek the answer to this question. The whole point of life in fact, may be the search for an answer to this question.

    At one time the universe was at a single point. The universe is infinite and everything. In that single point was every star, every galaxy, every black hole and every neutron star. Every human being was created from this single point. The matter we are made of and magic that fires our souls came from this one place. As we understand it, nothing can come from ourside the universe so every piece of matter and every human soul came from one point and one bang. We are a part of the universe like your heart is part of your body. So what is our purpose? What do we do that no star or planet can do? We seek answers. I believe we are the universe attempting to understand itself. That is, in our current evolutionary stage. I believe that in the future it may fall to us to see that the cycle of life continues after the universe, but that’s getting into the realm of science fiction!

    So what does this mean for life after death? Annhilation does not seem to be the natural way in the universe, energy is changed from one form to another and in that sense I believe our souls will live on. I haven’t been able to conceive a theory whereby we retain our individuality and that is a scary prospect. However I do believe that when we die it will be a more perfect transition than we could possibly imagine.

    Or not. The joy is in the search and the experience. Life is purely experiential and it is my belief that any sort of dogmatic principles, especially the ones lessen a persons experience of the universe are dangerous.

    These dogma’s become a battleground when the claw their way on to the political arena in this modern corruption of democracy that prevails today. Democracy once meant that every person had a voice. Nowadays it means majority (mob) rule. Churches all over the world lobby governemnts to ensure that the law of the church becomes the law of the land. That has been particularly true here in good old Catholic Ireland. Why is it though that homosexuality should be illegal or that civil partnership between two consenting adults should be outlawed (I believe marriage should be a term owned by churches and the state should concern itself only with civil partnership). These suit the Catholic belief but not mine, nor atheists, nor those of no faith, why should the laws of the land be such that they suit one large segment of society and the rest be damned?

    There are so many things in this world that cheapens people’s experience. Religious dogma, poverty, violent crime, regressive politics. I can’t fight everything anymore. Maybe it’s time we just discussed the things we agree on. Let’s end poverty today and squabble over our differences tomorrow.

    What will it mean for you if they find evidence of life on mars WB?

    That’s my two cents WB. Thank you for your important role in helping me realise my spirituality and beliefs. You helped me to realise the huge importance of understanding what it is one believes and standing by that faith.

    I’ll leave you with the words of Evelyn Hall:

    “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

    Sincerely,

    Kryp

    • Hi Kryp!

      For me, if life is found anywhere in the universe, it will merely mean that God is all powerful and there are people on a different planet. Regardless, we know the whole of creation groans until the day of redemption (Romans 8:19-25).

      It looks like you have been on a search. I pray you keep searching and will eventually find the whole truth about God and the fact that He loves you, and sent His Son to suffer and die for your sins, and offers you the opportunity to have eternal life. It doesnt matter who we are or what we’ve done – The answer is the same for all of us – if we reject Christ, then we reject God and will face the maker. If we accept Christ, then we accept God and will be blessed.

      I pray things go well with you,
      God bless, Kryp.

    • You’re a good man, Kryp.

  74. *I forgot to mention. The reason I put (pseudo) in brackets next to Catholic. A recent survey found that, based on what they actually believe, the large majority of Irish people are in fact Protestant in faith. Now wouldn’t that just solve an awful lot of problems! :-) K

  75. Wow, this article is nice, my sister is analyzing these
    things, therefore I am going to let know her.

  76. Thanks Lori, for the heads up!!

  77. Reblogged this on shaynroby and commented:
    We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus paid the price with His precious blood for all of us to be forgiven of that sin. However, a failure to repent of that sin means that we have declined to accept the gift. At Christmas time, if we do not open our packages, then we never get the use of whatever gifts were given to us. Failing to repent of sin is very much analogous to the Christmas time scenario.

  78. So…what I’m seeing here…you entered any immoral sex act (fornication) except premarital. Sex was made to consummate a marriage, not to be used whenever we are “frustrated”. It should NOT be with a casual acquaintance, or even a girlfriend. It is something that is to be shared with a wife (or husband) only. By this exclusion, one can only guess that you don’t see THAT as “immoral” because you freely engage in it.

  79. This is not what god would’ve wanted. If homosexuals, lesbians, or anyone else is a christian, then everyone could get along just fine. So what if people are gay. You shouldn’t judge their sexuality. If those people are happy, let them be happy. They don’t need anti-gay Christians pointing out how flaw they are. Let me put it out that if you Christians judge gay people, your just as bad as what you accuse gays to be. Give them a chance, and we could all love one another like the bible wants us too.

    • Actually, God said if your brother sins, rebuke him.

      Matthew 18:15-17

      15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

      If he sins against you, and repents, then forgive him – every time (seven times seventy times).

      Matthew 18:21

      Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

      Even if church leaders sin, we are to point it out.
      1 TImothy 5:19-20

      19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

      I dont care what particular sin people commit. If people want to be drunk, or have sex outside of marriage (as defined by God), or have homosexual sex matters not to me – other than the fact God has said to repent, turn to God, and have a life which shows true change.
      Acts 26:20

      20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

      Since I would prefer people not go to hell, I remind people of what God has said. This is not being judgmental. Its being kind. People dont like to have their sins pointed out to them. So these days they want to call it hate speech, but in fact it is just the opposite. I love my children and point out to them when they break rules – not because I hate them, but because I love them. The same is true for everyone.

      People need to know that through the name of Christ, everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
      Acts 10:43

      Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

      But people who belong to Christ will stop sinning.
      1 John 3:4-10

      4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

  80. Thank you for your kind words. I research when I feel led to deal with a given situation.

    Yes, I speak Spanish. My mother was Mexican and taught me Spanish every evening for 10 years. But I barely learned it. I didnt really learn it well until I had to evangelize and teach in Spanish.

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