What I have to say is to people who claim to be Christians.
Jesus spoke out against sexual immorality.
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean.
Mark 7:20-23
20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. 21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean.
We have to realize that sexual immorality is a category of sin that includes all sexual sin.
1 Corinthians 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.
Paul had to deal with one specific instance of sexual immorality: a man having sex with the wife of his father. This is identified as a sin in the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus 18:8, Leviticus 20:11, Deuteronomy 22:30, and Deuteronomy 27:20. Paul did not further address specific examples of sexual immorality in this passage. However, it is clear that it was a category of sin that dealt with sex that God had prohibited.
Christ said the entire category of sin known as sexual immorality was evil.
Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this; this would come from the Old Testament. As Christians today, we use both the Old and New Testaments to see Who God is, what God has done, how God feels about issues in life, and what He expects of and for us.
The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse
A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11
Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.
The term translated in Romans 1 as ‘lust’ is epiqumia in Greek. It means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust.
It is even the mere desire for same gender sex that is wrong in God’s eyes.
Paul said we must turn away from wickedness if we confess Christ as Lord:
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.
Paul also said God will punish men for sin.
1 Thes 4:3-8
3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
It does not matter how you feel about it. It does not matter how you justify it. God said if you do not change and turn to God, then you are not saved. If you claim you have repented and turned to God, then you need to live like it.
Note: edited to include the discussion on sexual immorality as a category 10/13/08.
Filed under: Christ, Doctrine, God, Homosexual, Love, Obedience, Sanctification, Sex, Sin
wow… heavy!!!! God bless!!
Its a deep issue, but its straight forward, if we take the Bible to be the word of God.
God bless you too!
dear fellow Christian,
What are you so afraid of? Jesus said “love thy neighbor” and “do not judge lest you be judged”. So many times people try to interpret Jesus’ teachings to fit their brand of fear and hate. Why not go with what he spoke of most all and in plain words: love and truth and peace? So again I ask, what are you so afraid of??
I am not afraid, other than for those who choose to continue doing this particular sin. God was quite clear in speaking out against it. It is not loving to allow people to step off a cliff without saying ‘watch out!’ It is much more loving to warn them of the truth.
I don’t hate either. Its not hate when a doctor tells you that you have cancer and need surgery.
As for whether we should judge, God said to call people on their sins.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/should-christians-judge/
As for love, Jesus said we would obey if we love Him.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/the-need-for-belief-love-and-obedience/
I’m a gay man who just finished reading the book of Leviticus. To be honest, if all the Christians who do not spread slanderous gossip among their people, do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of fabric, never eat meat that has not been drained of its blood, do not trim off the hair on their temples or clip the edges of their beards. Who, if law permitted, would put to death children who curse their father and mother and burn prostitutes want to call over here, and tell me how to live my life by god then thats just fine by me, but if your going to engage in behaviour that (wether it’s your intention or not) incites hatred, i suggest you base it on a more steady foundation than the book of Leviticus. Because it’s a book, not a sentence. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you, John 15:12. I can tell you I am NOT, feeling the love on this website.
Kryp, Love is telling people the truth, even when they don’t want to hear it. The truth is, God defines what is right or wrong. God said homosexual sex and desire are sin (Romans 1), as are the other things mentioned at the end of Romans 1.
I see you selectively quoted Jesus. But let’s look at the whole of that passage.
John 15:9-14
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Note: Jesus said you are his friend if you obey His commands. One of His commands was John 8:11b Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Hey wbmoore, thanks for the speedy reply.
I might make clear now that i have a minimal knowledge of the bible. I took it to be my duty as a gay man to read this Leviticus that is always being thrown in my face and was shocked to see that it included so many unreasonable (and in my opinion irrelevant) laws and commands. Would it be correct to say that in Romans1 we read Pauls paraphrasing of God, and for the true word of god we must return again to Leviticus?
I would enjoy some discourse on this subject. I’m twenty four and live in a small Irish town where this sort of ill feeling towards people is really unkown to me. I’m a well known charity and community activist and while not an active part of the gay community my partner is always at my side wether we are building a school in asia or organising a rock festival. Our families know each other and are good friends. I have appeared in local press and radio as a mamber of the gay community in the past and have never once encountered any ill feeling based on my sexuality. For my and my partners christian families time spent trying to change who we are would put the great lives that we have together and all the work we do to help other people at needless risk and drive us all away from each other. I don’t doubt that my mother may sit on occasion with my partners mother and wonder if we’ll be joining them in heaven, but why spend this life God gave us questioning his design and the choices people make with those lives when we can be doing so much more? Why don’t we come together to combat true evil like that which comes from the Westboro Baptist Church instead of convincing people who are good, (exemplified by the works they do) that they are wrong and evil?
I look forward to your reply, as i post this it’s 20:00 here in Ireland :-)
Hi Kryp, you’re welcome.
Believe it or not, I have no ill feeling towards homosexuals. I have experience in that area. But I know, also from experience, there are some people who DO feel poorly towards homosexuals. I have not met many as an adult (I am in my 40s).
I’m sure you know this, but I figured since I am not sure how much of the Bible you are aware of, I thought I’d cover it anyway, forgive me if you are already aware of it. The laws in the Old Testament laid out what God thinks is right and wrong, and provided punishment for breaking the law. The idea, according to Romans 3:19-26 and Galatians 3:19-25 (you can read them online at http://www.biblegateway.com/), was to show us that no one is perfect and to point us to our need for the righteousness that can only come from God Himself. God provided this righteousness when He sent Jesus to suffer and die for our sins (Jn 3:14-18). To take advantage of this gift, we need to change from running our own lives and believe God t the point where it changes our lives (Acts 26:20; James 2:14-22). By having faith in Christ, we are brought to spiritual life.
According to Romans 3:23, everyone (probably speaking of adults) has sinned. Romans 6:23 tells us we earn death through sinning, but God provides the free gift of eternal life.
While we might do things people consider to be good and moral, according to God, when we sin against God the best we can do is rags (Isaiah 64:6). We were created to be holy and righteous like God (Ephesians 4:24) and do good works (Ephesians 2:10). But to be considered ‘clean’ by God, we need to believe in Christ as our savior and the one in charge of our lives, and not do the things God says to not do (2 Peter 3:18; 2 Timothy 2:19; Ephesians 5:11). God is not currently punishing us in the here-and-now because He is showing kindness and patience to lead us to change (Romans 2:4-11).
As for what we see in Romans 1-2, Paul was telling us what happens when we put created things in the place of God. Man is a created thing, so when we put ourselves (or others) in the place of God, the same sort of thing occurs as what was mentioned in Romans 1. Historically, Paul was writing in Romans 1 about people who did not love the true God, or pagans. We do not know the context of his remarks (whether he was talking about people worshipping and having homosexual sex, or simply people who were pagan and had homosexual sex). I think Romans 1 probably does have Leviticus and Deuteronomy in mind, but does not directly reference them, other than to say those who do these things deserve death. In this case, it is not necessary to reference them, because Paul was clear what God thinks about homosexual sex, as well as the other sins mentioned at the end of Romans 1.
Hey WB, wow! Thats a lot of reading! Thankfully I have a bible and a Koran on the bookshelf, though before now i had never read more than the first few pages of either!
There seems to be a little inconsistency, in John 3:18 and James 2 for example, the implication seems to be that faith and good works are the way to heaven. Not, faith, good works and heterosexuality?
Romans 3:19-26- The implication i would take from that is that the laws set out in the Old Testament were no longer part of the path to heaven (perhaps God realised that man was only created in his IMAGE and could never be as perfect as He!) once again, faith in Jesus and good works are the path to heaven. That sounds so perfect, so simple and a fantastic basis for christianity but i know i’ve missed something in this, or we wouldn’t be engaged in this debate!!
If all the references to homosexual sex refer back to Gods original laws in Leviticus then it refers to a complete set of laws that could only be followed by a small minority of christians if any?
thanks as always!
Hey Kryp.
Sorry if I give you too much at once. :)
The Bible is the history of God’s interaction with mankind through the history of one tribe. The Old Testament defined right and wrong and how to deal with God in concrete literal terms. The New Testament defines the same things, but in more spiritual terms. In the old covenant, there were provisions for what each person must do, via offerings and sacrifices, to be ritually ‘clean’ – even to the point of offerings for unknown or accidental sin (which means to miss the mark). This had to be done over and over again, since mankind is imperfect. But even in the Old Testament, God really wanted people’s hearts (Deuteronomy 10:15-17; Deuteronomy 30).
In the new covenant, God is again wanting people’s hearts (Romans 2:29). The provision is made by Christ (Romans 10). It only had to be made once because Christ was God (John 5:18). Being God, HIS sacrifice for our sins was perfect. He freed us from the punishment of the Law, if we have faith (Galatians 3:13-14).
The way to heaven is simply faith that God sent Christ to die and be resurrected (John 3:14-18). But what does faith mean? It means we will change (repent) and turn towards God (Acts 3:19). It means we will confess our sins, which is to say admit/acknowledge our faults/failures/weaknesses/sins and agree with God it was wrong (Leviticus 5:5; 1 John 1:9). Note, I am not saying you need to confess them to men, although that , and prayer, WILL help you to not fall back into them (James 5:16). James said faith in Christ means you will have external evidence of a changed life (James 2). Paul said something similar (Acts 26:20). But part of this changed life will include becoming more and more holy – not staying sinful or living a pattern of sin (Galatians 5:13-6:10; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Peter 1:13-16; 1 Peter 2:11-12). It also includes loving God and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves (Deuteronomy 6:5; Luke 10:27) and not causing our brothers to sin (Romans 14:20; 1 Corinthians 10:32).
The particular sin itself is not all that important in most respects. We must strive to trust God through what Christ did, and let the Holy Spirit work in us to change us to become more like Christ (Ephesians 4). The reason I said in ‘most respects’ is that there are certain sins God has said will disqualify one for entrance into heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Revelation 21:7-8). God calls these things contrary to sound teaching (1 Timothy 1:8-11; 1 Timothy 6:3-10; Galatians 5:19-21).
i’ll check all those refernces in full tomorrow, it’s 01:15 here so better crawl to bed soon!
I see the refernce in Corintians 7:10 is pretty concusive but he then goes on to say that women who pray without wearing hats should have their heads shaved?? Cor 11:4-6
And if Paul is speaking the word of God then why does the word of God change betweenCor6:9-11 and Revelation 21:7-8? Is it possible that Paul is paraphrasing the word of God. Paul says homosexuals will not be accepted into the kingdom but that is not mentioned in revelation which i think is the word of Jesus?
Good night WB. Have enjoyed the debate this evening. I’ll try to get on tomorrow to continue.
In reference to 1 Corinthians 11:4-6, we need to look at the fuller passage, 1 Cor 11:3-16. You’ll notice Paul speaks of a hierarchy: God the Father, Christ (God the Son), husband (or father), wife (or unmarried daughter). Christ is under the Father, the man is in submission to Christ, and the woman is in submission to the man. This does not speak to ability or worth, but of position of authority, much like a General, a colonel, a captain, and a lieutenant (I think they are called leftennet in the UK). In verse 4, Paul speaks of the honor we show God by removing our hats when we pray or prophecy. Verses 5-10 speak of wearing a symbol of authority. Since man was created in the image of God, he should not be covered, out of respect. But since the woman came from man and was created for man, she should have her head covered to show respect for the authority he has over her in the hierarchy. I think the principle involved here is the authority and respect.
Take a look at 1 Cor 6:9 again. Depending on the version you have, it will say ‘fornicator’ or ’sexually immoral’ or possibly ‘those who indulge in sexual sin’. The word for this in Greek is Pornos. This can be translated as either someone who prostitutes himself or someone who engages in unlawful sexual intercourse. The difference between 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Revelation 21:7-8 is merely choice of words in translating into English.
Pornos is similar to Porneia, kind of like saying lesbian and homosexual (the latter can mean either male or female who is attracted to someone of the same gender, although it is usually used to speak of males, and the former is specific to females who are attracted to females), Porneia is also used to indicate someone who engages in unlawful sexual intercourse (as defined in Levitius 18, 20, and Deuteronomy 22:13-30).
Pornos can be found in these verses:
1 Corinthians 5:9; 1 Cor 5:10; 1 Cor 5:11; 1 Cor 6:9; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Timothy 1:10; Heb 12:16; Heb 13:4; Revelation 21:8;Re 22:15.
Porneia can be found in these verses:
Matthew 5:32; Mt 15:19; Mt 19:9; Markk 7:21; John 8:41; Acts 15:20 ; Acts 15:29; Acts 21:25; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Cor 6:13; 1 Cor 6:18; 1 Cor 7:2; 2 Cor 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Revelation 2:21; Rev 9:21; Rev 14:8; Rev 17:2; Rev 17:4; Rev 18:3; Rev 19:2
As for is it possible Paul was paraphrasing, I don’t think so. According to Peter, in 2 Peter 3:14-16, Paul’s writings are Scripture. So Paul was speaking for God. I think the difference is that the audience was different, the purpose of the books are different, and the person was used by God to write 1 Corinthians was different than the person was used by God to write Revelation. They each had their own style, audience, language, and purpose for writing. And yes, John wrote down the words of Jesus in Revelation.
Also, sometimes we mention part of a list when discussing a subject. Paul had been speaking, in 1 Cor 5, of someone who had ‘had’ his father’s wife. He used the term Porneia (the more general term) in 1 Cor 5:1. Then he went on and spoke to various types of immorality in the rest of chapters 5 and 6. In 1 Cor 6;9, Paul wrote about the ‘unrighteous’ or ‘wicked’ (depending on your version of Bible). The term used was Adikos, which means someone who violates justice. This shifts our focus from the justice of lawsuits, to the justice of people who break the law. Then he mentioned various things that are against the law as given in the old testament.
As I understand the Bible, we need faith in what Christ did to get to heaven. But this faith will have evidence of a changed life (verbally declaring Christ as Lord and Savior, baptism after becoming a believer, becoming more like Christ internally, and living that change out externally). We are told to be Holy because God is holy (Leviticus 20:26; 1 Peter 1:16).
If anyone is interested, I ended up making a comment, in a similar vein to this dialog, to a blog entry of mine in response to someone’s comment. Take a look if you are interested: http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/public-schooling-and-indoctrination/
“The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse
A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11″
So an other words man translated this word to mean what they want it to in the context they wish to use it. I understand hey what ever helps you sleep at night.
I speak two languages. The translation of hogar can mean a few things: fireplace, hearth, or home. However it is often used in place of house.
When you translate a word, it means what it means. I didn’t invent language, God did.
Hey WBMoore,
Sorry I haven’t been on, I just started work on a new contract and have been up the walls :)
I checked over the bible quotes, though I didn’t have time to read the surrounding passages and take the context into account. Believe it or not the little reasearch our discourse has led me to has left me with a greater understanding of the bible than a lot of so called ‘christians’ that i’ve discussed these issues with before.
I’ll have to take a break from this for a while to focus on work. I hope you’ll still be here when my time frees up again.
A couple of points to leave you with:
-Most of the references in the bible to homosexuality sit in context with a long line of other offences, one or more of which have been commited by every person I know, which is a broad spectrum of people(other than my partner i find i don’t have much in common with the gay community at large).
-The references that I have read that mention homosexuality in a specific way come from Paul. Given the large population of people in the bible there is a very large statistical chance that Paul was a homosexual. The jump from suppresed homosexual to homophobe is a logical one. If this is the case he was ideally placed to twist the word of God to his own ends. This scenario would seem to me to be more congruent with the word of God in the rest of the book.
-Put aside the bible for a moment (I can imagine thats no small order) and take a look at the world, which really, can be the ONLY true word of God. As you’ve said yourself, the bible was written by God through people, the real world is the only True Word Of God. He has written it and created it from where there was once nothing. Not written with people or any tool other than His glory. Respect the world and the people he has created. Unless you treat homosexual’s with true love and respect, you cannot show true love for the world that God has created, his only unquestionably true word.
-You and I are both educated people, we can have this conversation coming from different points of view, accept each others point of view and try to understand each other better. In the hands of people who do not have an intelligent, loving understanding of others, your point of views leads to pain, misery and hatred. Mine does not.
-We all know that in a War Crime tribunal, the defence of ‘I was just following orders’ when doing something that you know in your heart is the wrong thing to do is inadmissable. When you stand before God and tell Him your thoughts on homosexuality, and tell him that you were ‘Just following orders’, i would be interested to know if this is really what he intended.
-There are ten commandments. God did not see fit to mention homosexuality. Very conclusive?
Maybe all the laws that restrict homosexuality should be abolished and replaced with ones that imprison those who take the name of the Lord in vain?
That about raps it up. i log on to see your replies. I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last couple of weeks, even found a few who could be saved from their misguided thoughts on their fellow man. I hope it won’t be long before I can come back here and try to help you some more.
Thanks again WB, hope you keep well. talk again soon! :)
Hey Kryp!
I understand about a new job. I’m glad you’re researching, using the Bible. I find its the best place to know what God has said concerning most anything. There are many people who call themselves Christian who are ignorant of the Bible. It perplexes me, even though there was a point when I did not know much about the BIble. I was a new Christian and could be excused for my lack of knowledge. The same is not true for people who grow up in the church or who have been going to church for many years.
“Most of the references in the bible to homosexuality sit in context with a long line of other offences, one or more of which have been commited by every person I know, which is a broad spectrum of people(other than my partner i find i don’t have much in common with the gay community at large).”
You are correct. Most references to any given sin are right along with other sins. Many people commit them willingly. I also warn people about those. :) Either I, or my wife, or someone we know well have committed probably every sin in the Bible at one time or another. But its not about simply doing something God has said not to do. Its about acknowledging God has said it is wrong, agreeing with God its wrong, admitting you made a mistake, acquiring His forgiveness, and acclaiming His love. We have to walk away from sin. We have to leave our sins behind and walk toward God.
“-The references that I have read that mention homosexuality in a specific way come from Paul.”
Well, when speaking specifically about homosexuality, it is referenced in Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, Romans 1, and 1 Corinthians 6:9. The rest deal with sexual immorality as defined in Leviticus 18, 20, and Deuteronomy 22, which includes homosexual sex.
“Given the large population of people in the bible there is a very large statistical chance that Paul was a homosexual. The jump from suppresed homosexual to homophobe is a logical one. If this is the case he was ideally placed to twist the word of God to his own ends. This scenario would seem to me to be more congruent with the word of God in the rest of the book.”
Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.
Just because Paul had to address an issue does not mean he personally had that problem. As a teacher, he would have had to address numerous problems in the church. His letters address many different issues. To assume he had a problem with all, or even many, of them does not make sense. And calling something wrong that God has said is wrong is not being hateful or fearful – it is being accurate and truthful and loving.
“-Put aside the bible for a moment (I can imagine thats no small order) and take a look at the world, which really, can be the ONLY true word of God. As you’ve said yourself, the bible was written by God through people, the real world is the only True Word Of God. He has written it and created it from where there was once nothing. Not written with people or any tool other than His glory.”
I disagree that the world is the only true word of God. God wrote the Bible using men. In it He spoke the message and that message was written down. The Bible is the written word of God. Christ is the Word of God (John 1). Both of them are as real as the world you live in, which God spoke into existence. We can see what God has created, but since the fall of mankind, with Satan’s help, the world is not the perfect place God created. God has allowed man and the demons, both of which have free will, to warp it. The glory of God can be seen in the world, but so too is it proclaimed in the written record of Who He is, What He has done, What He wants from us, What He wants for us, and What He will do.
“Respect the world and the people he has created. Unless you treat homosexual’s with true love and respect, you cannot show true love for the world that God has created, his only unquestionably true word.”
We are to be stewards of the world. We are to care for it, and everything in it – much like a shepherd cares for his sheep, we are to manage it. It provides our livelihood. We are to love God and our brothers.
But you define love differently than God does. You want to claim that love is letting you do whatever you want. Every good parent knows this is not the case. God says if you love Him, you will obey Him (John 14:23-24; 2 John 1:5-6). God said to not be conformed to the world, but be changed (Romans 12:2). God said if your brother sins rebuke him (Luke 17:3). God said to hate what is evil, as defined by God (Romans 12:9). Love is not allowing someone to do something that damages their eternal future, not letting them do what they want when that same thing they want threatens their very soul.
“-You and I are both educated people, we can have this conversation coming from different points of view, accept each others point of view and try to understand each other better. In the hands of people who do not have an intelligent, loving understanding of others, your point of views leads to pain, misery and hatred. Mine does not.”
Actually, you are wrong. Intelligent people who have your point of view are putting people with my point of view in jail or fining them, even in the United States – the so called land of liberty. It will not be long before it becomes even more dangerous for people to hold my point of view in this country.
“-We all know that in a War Crime tribunal, the defence of ‘I was just following orders’ when doing something that you know in your heart is the wrong thing to do is inadmissable. When you stand before God and tell Him your thoughts on homosexuality, and tell him that you were ‘Just following orders’, i would be interested to know if this is really what he intended.”
He has made it clear what God intended. He said sin deserves death (Romans 6:23). In the Old Testament the death we deserve due to sin was covered by the sacrifice of animals for most sins, although there were certain sins for which God did not allow sacrifice. In the New Testament the death we earn by sinning was covered by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus to give us the gift of life (Romans 6:23). He said we are to tell the world (Matthew 28:18-20).
“-There are ten commandments. God did not see fit to mention homosexuality. Very conclusive?”
Actually, there were 613 commandments. He DID see fit to mention homosexuality – twice – when He gave them. The 10 are a summary of the rest, and an even greater summary was given by Christ – Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. But that love includes obedience to Him.
“Maybe all the laws that restrict homosexuality should be abolished and replaced with ones that imprison those who take the name of the Lord in vain?”
Are you putting yourself in the place of God? They are both sin. They both deserve punishment. They are both covered by Christ if we accept His gift of the sacrifice He made. But accepting that gift does not mean we are free to continue to sin. It simply means we are forgiven. But we must do what Christ said, “leave your life of sin” (John 8:11). This means do not live a pattern of sin, and confess the sins we do commit and stop sinning.
“That about raps it up. i log on to see your replies. I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last couple of weeks, even found a few who could be saved from their misguided thoughts on their fellow man. I hope it won’t be long before I can come back here and try to help you some more.”
I pray you come to understand God loves you. I pray you accept His gift and leave sin behind. I also pray your job goes well and you are able to have a life outside of it.
“Actually, you are wrong. Intelligent people who have your point of view are putting people with my point of view in jail or fining them, even in the United States – the so called land of liberty. It will not be long before it becomes even more dangerous for people to hold my point of view in this country.”
That’s what I thought, you are operating out of fear, wb. And, by the title of this blog entry you are specifically trying to spew hatred about homosexuals. The fact is, no where in the Bible does it say that “Jesus hated gays and so should you”. Sure, you can list a myriad of scripture but in the end it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of this scripture of what you THINK Jesus MEANT. Why do you suppose there are thousands of different of denominations and sects of Christianity?? Because there are just as many INTERPRETATIONS of His word. And just who is there to say which INTERPRETATION is “correct”? You? Me? How about Constantine? He was the one who commissioned the very first compilations be gathered and written, 300 or so years after Jesus’ death. So the scholars had to hastily decide what books and scriptures went in that first Bible and what was not included. Do you realize how many times through the ages the Good Book was translated, edited, redacted due to politics? It just seems pretty small minded to think that one INTERPRETATION could some how be better than all the others. I suppose you think that Jesus was born on December 25 too???
“Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.”
How can you possibly make a statement like this?? We cannot possibly know if Paul or anyone else in the Bible was or was not homosexual. Scholars cannot even agree on who wrote the Gospels or most of the Bible. One thing we do know is that homosexuals existed long before Jesus walked the earth and long after he died for all of us: black, white, yellow, brown, gay, straight, old, young, rich, poor, tall, short, female, or male. And my INTERPRETATION of the Bible is that God created everything and everyone and He did not make any mistakes.
I understand where you are coming from, wb. Your belief compels you to take up the sword where Paul and the other early Christians left off all those centuries ago. That it is your duty as a good evangelical to show the rest of us the light. I am not against you or your beliefs or your INTERPRETATION of the Good Book. Aren’t we all so lucky to be living in this day and age that we have access to the internet and can fling our ideas across the universal with one click of our mouses. Bravo God! But also, I think now in this day and age, we humans, Christian or not, have learned much from our past mistakes. We have learned, for example, that slavery is wrong (but is advocated in the Bible), that women have undeniable rights just like men (sexism is advocated in the Bible), and that horrible injustices like murder is wrong (also, advocated in the Bible). I thank God and Jesus every day that I live in a time when you and me and everyone HAS THE RIGHT to think and live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. (Yeah, that is my INTERPRETATION)
Maybe you just provocatively titled this blog to get more readers. Well done. But there is no where in the Bible that says that Jesus spoke out against homosexuals. Just not true, my friend. So your title is a lie, and I do believe the 9th commandment of the 10 commandments is “Thou shalt not bear false witness..” Hmmmmmmmmmmmm….
“You are operating out of fear”
No. Its not fear to recognize what is. It is honesty. It is becoming illegal to speak God’s word, even in this country.
“by the title of this blog entry you are specifically trying to spew hatred about homosexuals.”
You confuse love with hatred. I’ve been bisexual. My wife was lesbian. We know the truth of who God is and what God has said.
If I see you stepping out in front of a speeding car, I have two choices: be quiet and let you get hit or try to stop you from certain death. It is not hatred to try to help people who are doing things that will hurt them.
” The fact is, no where in the Bible does it say that “Jesus hated gays and so should you”.
No one has said to hate anyone one. If you are reading hate, it is because that’s where your mind is, bot because of what has been said. You are seeing what you want to see – not the truth.
“Sure, you can list a myriad of scripture but in the end it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of this scripture of what you THINK Jesus MEANT.”
Its clear Christ spoke out against sexual sin. Its clear Its clear God spoke out against homosexual sex as sin. Its clear Christ is God. You’re free to disagree, but you have been warned of the cliff you are walking off.
” who is there to say which INTERPRETATION is “correct”? You? Me?
God says it. The only people who do not agree with the interpretation that homosexual sex is a sin are those who want to justify their own behavior or the behavior of people they love.
” How about Constantine? He was the one who commissioned the very first compilations be gathered and written, 300 or so years after Jesus’ death.”
Actually, no. There were always collections of what had been written to the churches, from the very beginning.
” So the scholars had to hastily decide what books and scriptures went in that first Bible and what was not included.”
Actually, again, no. There had been ongoing discussion as to which books were to be considered scriptural, to address heresy, long before Constantine called a council.
” Do you realize how many times through the ages the Good Book was translated, edited, redacted due to politics?”
You seem to like to re-write history. Please provide sources for what you claim. The truth is, we can track the writing of various manuscript families through history.
” It just seems pretty small minded to think that one INTERPRETATION could some how be better than all the others.”
It seems like you have a small view of God. I suggest you take Him out of the box you put Him in and let Him actually speak and work in your life. God loves you and wants you to know He wants the best for you. But He is Holy, Righteous, and Just, as well as loving. He will judge everyone. Only those who trust in Christ will see eternal life with God the Father.
” I suppose you think that Jesus was born on December 25 too?”
No. Jesus was probably born in the spring circa 6-5 BC (http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/dates-for-new-testament-books/).
“Given the population discussed in the Bible, there were undoubtedly some people who were homosexual. And obviously Paul felt the need to discuss the issue. But while its a nice thought for people who want to justify their feelings and behavior, Paul was not homosexual. He was a Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin and they were required to be married. In 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Paul said to the widows and unmarried to stay as he was, and implied he was able to control himself. So its likely he was a widower, or at best His wife left him when he converted to Christianity.”
” We cannot possibly know if Paul or anyone else in the Bible was or was not homosexual. ”
Its easy. You believe God. God made it clear homosexual sex was a sin. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He lived a life that honored God. Living a life of sin does not honor God. Paul was obedient to God, because he loved God. God said homosexual sex is a sin. So, no, Paul was not someone who practiced homosexual sex. As Paul made it clear that even homosexual desire is a sin, Paul also had no such desire.
“Scholars cannot even agree on who wrote the Gospels or most of the Bible. ”
The only one who do not agree are the ones who are not trusting God. The rest seem to have no difficulty knowing who wrote the Bible.
“One thing we do know is that homosexuals existed long before ”
We also know God made it clear that homosexual sex is a sin.
“Jesus walked the earth and long after he died for all of us: black, white, yellow, brown, gay, straight, old, young, rich, poor, tall, short, female, or male. ”
Finally, something you and I agree on.
“my INTERPRETATION of the Bible is that God created everything and everyone and He did not make any mistakes.”
God allows us to make our choices, and those choices affect us and others. The sins of the parents are visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation, meaning our choices affect our children and grandchildren. While God is perfect, our sin affects us and our descendants.
“I understand where you are coming from.”
So far, nothing you have written shows you do.
” Your belief compels you to take up the sword where Paul and the other early Christians left off all those centuries ago”
No. My belief and my love compels me to try to get people to understand who God is, what God has done, and what God wants for us and fro us.
“slavery is wrong (but is advocated in the Bible), ”
Do not confuse regulation with advocation.
“that women have undeniable rights just like men (sexism is advocated in the Bible)”
Just because God said there are differences between men and women does not mean men or women are not of equal value or worth.
” and that horrible injustices like murder is wrong (also, advocated in the Bible).”
Um.. no. God said to not murder – it would help if you read the Bible. There is a difference between stating what sinful people have done and what God wants done.
” I thank God and Jesus every day that I live in a time when you and me and everyone HAS THE RIGHT to think and live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. (Yeah, that is my INTERPRETATION)”
I agree with you again. All of us deserve the right to live our lives in the glory of God as He intended without persecution. But He did not intend us to sin.
“here is no where in the Bible that says that Jesus spoke out against homosexuals. ”
If you think Christ is not God, and if you think God did not write the Bible, and if you think God did not say that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual sexual sin is a sexual sin and if you think that Christ did not speak out against sexual sin, then perhaps you are rigfht.
“Just not true, my friend. So your title is a lie, and I do believe the 9th commandment of the 10 commandments is “Thou shalt not bear false witness..””
But telling the truth is not speaking falsely against someone else.
I want people to know that God loves them. But God is also Holy, Righteous and Just. God will judge us each on what we do. If we love Him, we will obey Him.
Wow, defensive. Exactly what I would expect you to say. Good luck to you, in this life and the next. As for me, I’ll be the one playing racketball with the Lord.
ps, I have read the Bible. Would you like for me to list where God orders innocent killings throughout the Book? Come on..
pss, I am glad that you and your wife are happy together and have found love.
psss, I know I am just feeding your small flame on this blog of yours. I have said what I have to say. Your INTERPRETATION does not equal my INTERPRETATION. I know where I stand with the Lord. Cheers.
If I were defensive, I would not have bothered to approve your post. I would have just hit delete. I’ll be praising God in heaven.
I’ve read the Bible too. Please, let me know of verses you think innocents have been killed?
I pray you live a life of love and obedience to God. This is not necessarily what people consider to be love.
God bless you!
For those who believe it is impossible for a true homosexual to leave homosexuality behind, take a look at
http://ricgator.wordpress.com/2007/03/14/lesbian-activist-set-free-in-christ/
God bless you wb! You’re doing a good thing in the eyes of the Lord. You’re absolutely right about the interpretations of the bible. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore His word and their meanig never change. I think people fail to realise that the word is a spirt, not just a book. So, to truly understand the Word (which is actually God, going by John1) we have to be in the spirit. Different interpretations, and indeed misinterpretations, are a result of people reading the word with their brains and logic, instead of the spirit. GOD BLESS YOU SISTER. I’m a young man myself (I8) and it’s so nice to stumble across such things on the internet, as opposed to damaging websites, etc. Please e-mail me scriptures and stuff; that would be amazing!
Hi erasmus! Thanks for the kind words. I’m a man of 45 years.
Almost every post I’ve made on this blog has scripture. Feel free to read them all and comment or ask questions.
Brilliant, thanks a lot! Sorry about the mistake! GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER.
Hey wb! How’ve you been keeping? the world has changed in so many ways since we last spoke! I like being able to come back to a website with someone who has such a radically different opinion yet is happy to publish any and all questions! I put up a post on another thread on this site to some guy who was claiming that some advert with homosexual undertones be removed, i questioned how this would work given his country’s heavily trumpeted ‘freedom of speach’ and suggested the road that such a move would lead that country down. He didn’t approve the post!! Clearly didn’t have the conviction in his off the cuff remarks to let them stand up to scrutiny!!
Anyhow, I think the stuff that has followed on from our conversation earlier has highlighted the point that every single person who has read the bible will have their own unique interpratation. I think that problem is prevalent in many parts of American life especially with regard to the right to bear arms.
When i look at this issue, I feel that the consequences of every stand point has to be weighed. My point of view is one of self determination. I feel it is up to each person to investigate the world in which they live, religions, ethos’, philosophies and decide on their own standard of morality. I see your viewpoint then as one dictated by a book said to be the unquestionable word of god, a rigid set of rules written many thousands of years ago by, apparently, god.
The consequence of my way of looking at life is for you to tell me!
The consequence of your way is it takes no account of the fact that everyone is an individual, you state that as this book tells you, no one is born gay, but is merely misguided. I would say in a world where conjoined twins, genderless people and babies lacking full mental capacity are born then there is no way that everyone is not gay. And to tell these children that they are wrong and incorrect and can be fixed, when no matter how hard they try they still find themselves gay, leads to suicide. You, myself and even the medical community at large are currently ill equiped to tell an individual if they are gay or straight, and the only way I can see of dealing with the issue while avoiding needless deaths, is to encourage them to explore these issues and feelings and not to fill them with promises that they can be fixed when really, you don’t know.
Hey Kyp! I was wondering where you went! :) Missed you.
Thanks for the kind words. I’m not perfect, but I try to show God’s love to everyone here, and as long as the comments are not abusive or spam, I approve them.
Yes, there are varying interpretations of what God has written – some from a perspective of someone who wants to do what they want, some from a perspective of someone who wants to feel better about something, some from a perspective of truly seeking God and His will, some from a perspective of people who want to put church teachings above what God has said, some from a perspective of someone who wants to put what God has said above what the church teaches, some from a perspective of selfishness (seeking power, authority, money, etc.), some from a perspective of wanting to purposefully distort what God has said. Even from people who truly believe in Christ and truly believe the Bible is God’s word, you will get differing interpretations. But its been my experience that most people who believe the Bible is the word of God will agree on most things, and, with the exception of a few issues, tend to disagree about I call process/procedure. Its been my experience that people who believe the Bible is the word of God, and who are seeking God and His righteousness, will agree on things that are plainly stated – particularly when it comes to what God has called sin.
Its interesting that you brought up one area what I have not done a thorough study – the right to self-defense (which is assumed in the right the bear arms). I love marital arts and shooting guns – I used to do both before I became a Christian. Yet, I see that Christ has said to turn the other cheek, so I have not done either in a long time. I try to do what I believe God wants me to do, even in this area. I really ought to do a detailed study on this subject.
I agree with the idea that we each need to investigate all the possibilities to find the truth – particularly when it comes our souls. In case you didn’t know I used to be Wiccan, before I accepted Christ as the Savior sent by god to suffer and die for our sins. So I did not lightly accept what people claimed as truth either. But once I DID become dedicated to God, I began to live life as though the Bible is the manual for how to live life – even if it took a while for God to convince me He wrote the word of God.
I have no idea what the consequences of looking at life the way you do are or will be for you – other than to say I know what the eternal consequences will be.
Truly, the only problem I see with your idea of each person should decide his own standard for morality is that it ultimately leads to chaos and destruction. I say this because there is no basis for creating such standards. As such, each person gets to decide what they consider to be right and wrong. And while at first people will generally agree on those things – particularly if they have been influenced by Christianity, over time and generations, the standards for morality will slide down hill. After sufficient time of each person deciding for themselves what is right and wrong, eventually people begin to think of others as a tool or mechanism and means of getting what they want, or as something that is preventing them from getting or doing what they desire. This in turn leads to people hurting others, sometimes to the point of death. This is how we get abortion and euthanasia. Ever see the movie Logan’s Run? This movie was basically a story about how people got to do basically what they wanted until it was time for them to “reach Nirvana” – when they hit 30 (or so), they were killed. I prefer to do things God’s way, which honors Him and His creation – including people (whether I like them or not, agree with them or not).
I realize everyone is an individual. I know that God works with people as they are and where they are. But His work is that you might believe (John 6:29). He works in us to to want and do His will (Philippians 2:13). This does not mean each of us are not different – for we are each VERY different. We each have different desires, fears, goals, bodies, needs, walks of life, etc. But just because we are different does not mean God loves us any less or any differently.
I do not think I have ever said that people are not born homosexual. I kinda doubt it, but its certainly within the realm of possibilities. But I know that if they are, it is either because of the consequences of the sin of their ancestors (Deuteronomy 5:9) or because God wants to show His grace, love, and power in their lives to set them free from it. God uses everything, good and bad, to give us the chance to come to Him ( http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/how-could-bad-things-bring-us-closer-to-god/ ). no one is better or worse than others – in fact people who suffer are not better or worse than others (Luke 13:1-5). Sometimes things happen to people not because of sin but to show the power of God in their lives (John 9:1-4). God even decides where we will live so we might find Him (Acts 17:26-27).
The thing is, people tell others they are bad people because they sin. This is not what God said. Its a mistake to tell people they are sick or evil or wrong because of their desires. But this does not mean those desires are healthy or good or even acceptable. God said EVERYONE is a sinner, we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). God CAN heal everything – but sometimes He doesn’t. Regardless, He still demands love expressed through obedience (1 John 5:3). He loves us so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die for us so that who ever believes can have eternal life with Him (John 3:16-18).
As for me, I’ll be the one playing racketball with the Lord.,? do you really think so? that is like I hear some say, I’ll see you in Hell ,and we will party down! I don’t think so! Wake up. before it is too late,,, God does NOT change,Let go of sin and live Holy!
Can I just say that after following the postings between wbmoore and Kryp that it is so refreshing to see two people who disagree on such an important topic discussing it in such an open, honest and respectful manner.
Just more proof that charity never faileth. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
Thanks, JF. Kryp has been very respectful and I appreciate that. He also has a keen intellect and uses it, which is also much appreciated.
Hey wb,
hope your keeping well, I hope you don’t mind if I’m starting to think of you as an old friend-I had a smile on my face as I logged on, looking forward to reading our past discussions! =]
Thanks JF, I feel lucky to have landed on to wb’s site, these sort of discussions so often seem to become about peoples ego’s, semantics and trying to change the other persons mind. Wb has a real knowledge of his subject and has created a lovely place where people can work to understand each other rather than fight for conversational superiority!!
I’ve had to accept the unliklihood that I’ll have the time I had when I first came here to study the bible, my business now takes up almost all my spare time and untill I can do that full time it’s just gogogo! It’s exhilerating, but it’s also reassuring to live in a country where I will likely get older, and get the chance to succeed and then slow things down again.
I think on the subject that started this conversation, I’ve become resolved. If you are a true believer in christ and god, and if you follow the words of the bible, you should not practice homosexual sex. That is not to say a person is not homosexual, but that if you truelly believe in gods design (I do not), your place in that design is to practice abstinence. What are your thoughts there? I think you’ll say that you don’t believe god makes people homosexual, and i think that will be our fundamental , irresolvable difference.
I’ve learned something very important lately, about the difference between my way of thinking and that of christianity. Christianity will present the bible, and the word of god, as a way to live your life, the answer to where we come from and the answer to where we go after death. All the answers in a neat little package! I myself, cannot be convinced even slightly, that it’s that simple. That life’s infinite complexity, the mysteries of space, the secrets of DNA and the genome, can just be explained away with one word GOD. (I’m really leveling this accusation at the creationist school of thought, which to be fair I’m assuming you’re in, correct me if I’m wrong.) I look up at the nights sky, and see an infinite universe, where did it come from? whats our place in it? who else is out there? I just need to look outside and I can see a rich world of questions which in my lifetime will never be answered- sure, science will come up with theories, and I’ll eat them up and say ‘Wow, that’s an amazing idea.’ but the joy of science is that it’s an ever evolving theory, it’ll never really have any answers untill we’ve reached the end of everything. One of my fundamental driving powers is a realisation that I came to after much soul searching, that is that neither I, nor anyone else in this life knows the answers to those fundamental questions and once you get over the initial fear of not pretending to know anymore, you can embrace the true richness of life, the truth that there is nothing but questions.
I think this forms a part of a larger social construct, the idea that there are absolute answers to anything in life.
Can you explain faith to me? I’m probably asking you to pick apart something that to you is fundamental and unquantifiable, but it seems to be one of the many dead ends at which these sort of discussions end
e.g.-’But how do you know the bible is written by god’ ‘I have faith’
Is faith some sort of deep knowledge of the existence of god that for whatever reason I lack? I’ve looked deep in myself, at the world, to people I love (my mother is a creationist), in the bible. I haven’t seen anything, anywhere that would make me believe anything other than-nobody really knows.
I guess I’ll leave it at that for a while, please let me know if you’ll be moving our part of this discussion, as we seem to have moved on from this page’s topic.
I’m really looking forward to hearing back, I’ll try to make more time to come on here, you know we’ve nearly been discussing these issues for a year now! Hopefully someday we’ll have been having this debate for years.
take care =]
You always think of the best stuff after submitting! -sorry.
I was just thinking that the bible as it’s originally written, was firstly in a different language, hebrew maybe? And was also much longer than the version you pick up inyour local bookshop. To actually understand the bible would you not be required to learn the original language, in depth, then read the complete, unabridged collection of books? Hmmmm, maybe this leg of the conversation isn’t done yet! =]
Hi Kyp!
I’m glad your work is going well. Its much better to have an abundance than a scarcity, when it comes to work at least.
I also enjoy our conversations and look forward to your return. :) You have a good mind and ask good questions. And thanks again for the compliments. I find it distasteful when I post on someone’s blog and they do not choose to aire the comment, even though it was respectful. So as long as someone is not being purposefully rude and combative (or spamming), I generally will approve most any comment.
You wrote, “If you are a true believer in christ and god, and if you follow the words of the bible, you should not practice homosexual sex.”
I agree with this statement. Those ARE important caveats to the statement, however. One that many can not accept – there are plenty of people who calim love of God and Christ, yet live a life of willfulness. This seems to me to be a contradiction. I’m not saying we wont have our faults, failures, and mistakes (indeed, even occassionally choose to do what we know we should not do), but I think we should have a consistent pattern of growth towards godliness and personal holiness – growth towards becomming more like Christ – full of love for God and others, obedience towards God, a true concern for the well-being of others, and a desire to have others choose God over anything or anyone else.
You went on, “That is not to say a person is not homosexual, but that if you truelly believe in gods design (I do not), your place in that design is to practice abstinence. ”
I would agree – if someone claims love for God and Chirst and follows the Bible, one will remain sexually abstinent unless married to someone of the opposite gender.
“What are your thoughts there? I think you’ll say that you don’t believe god makes people homosexual, and i think that will be our fundamental , irresolvable difference.”
Actually, I’ve written elsewhere that I think it is possible that God either DID create (or allowed the creation of) some people who do not follow the pattern of “normal” physical, mental, emotional, and/or spiritual development. Ie. I think it is possible God creates (or allows to be born) some people with homosexual trendencies. I’m not sure I would say that anyone is born with sexual drive in them or not (it certainly does not manifest itself until later life). Perhaps we could say that people are born with the seeds of a sexual drive? I’m not sure how I would define that, really. Apparently neither are social or medical scientists, as no one has been able to say what factors into the development of sexual interest as a whole.
But having said that its possible God creates (or depending on your understanding of how things work, God allows people to be created – personally, I think Scripture says God creates us in our mothers’ womb, but I didn’t want to argue this point at the moment, which is why I left it open), I have to say that if He does so, I do not think it is to punish or condemn people to a painful or empty life. I think God allows people to be born with certain traits so as to be able to help them and people in their lives and to show His mercy. I say this because of the scene in John 9 where a man who was born blind was healed by Jesus, after Jesus had been asked, “who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus responded, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”
God wants us to see. Its evident this was related as a means of relating the problem of spiritual blindness many people seem to have at one time or another in thier lives (myself included). It is trite to say, but God works in ways (and with timing) we can not understand. But we know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). So I have to believe that God allows some to be born imperfectly (when compared to what is traditionally considered normal), so that He can work in their lives and the lives of those around those persons in particular ways. But He does so as part of a plan where people will come to believe.
You wrote, ” Christianity will present the bible, and the word of god, as a way to live your life, the answer to where we come from and the answer to where we go after death. All the answers in a neat little package! ”
I’m not sure I would go so far as to say a neat little package. There are still many unknowns, particularly details on how. The Bible is not very in depth when it comes to HOW God works. It merely shows that He did, does, and will, work to bring about His purpose. But I think you are rght in saying the Bible tells us what God has done, and how we should live our lives, something of what will happen in the future (particularly life after death). I just dont think it provides all that many details on the how.
You went on, “I myself, cannot be convinced even slightly, that it’s that simple. That life’s infinite complexity, the mysteries of space, the secrets of DNA and the genome, can just be explained away with one word GOD.”
See, the problem is you seem to have a small view of God and an inaccurate one of the Bible. In my view, God is immense and powerful (among other things), and the Bible tells us something of what has happened, and something of what will happen, and a lot of how we should live our lives (morality). But the details are often missing on how things have or will occur. It is those details that science and archealogy are ferreting out.
You wrote, “(I’m really leveling this accusation at the creationist school of thought, which to be fair I’m assuming you’re in, correct me if I’m wrong.)”
You are correct, I am a creationist.
You wrote, “I look up at the nights sky, and see an infinite universe, where did it come from? whats our place in it? who else is out there? ”
These are questions each of us ask ourselves at one time or another, I think. Unlike some, I do not think the Bible speaks to the existence of others out there one way or another, and I think it is myopic for people to think just because others are not mentioned directly in the Bible, that they therefore can not exist.
You wrote, “I just need to look outside and I can see a rich world of questions which in my lifetime will never be answered- sure, science will come up with theories, and I’ll eat them up and say ‘Wow, that’s an amazing idea.’ but the joy of science is that it’s an ever evolving theory, it’ll never really have any answers untill we’ve reached the end of everything.”
I so agree with you on this! Science is a wonderful way to provide answers to how – in detail. But as our knowledge evolves, so do the answers provided by science. But it seems to me that the how is not really dealt with very much in the Bible. We are told God created, breathed, everything into existence, but we are not told the where and how-tos of such.
You wrote, “One of my fundamental driving powers is a realisation that I came to after much soul searching, that is that neither I, nor anyone else in this life knows the answers to those fundamental questions and once you get over the initial fear of not pretending to know anymore, you can embrace the true richness of life, the truth that there is nothing but questions.”
See, I have no problem admitting (to myself at least, *grin*) that I do not have all the answers. I love the questions. I love to see people enjoy themselves discovering answers, as much as I enjoy discovering answers to the questions I have.
You wrote, “I think this forms a part of a larger social construct, the idea that there are absolute answers to anything in life.”
Well, see, I think there ARE absolute answers to at least some things in life. It is either day time where you are or it is not. You are either physically breathing or not. I think the same things can be said about morality. For instance, it is a common moral “law” for people across time and culture and language to say stealing from people is wrong – for some, people means their tribe, or their family, or hunity at large, but the basic foundational moral law remains constant. I think the difference in definition is because we have yet to sufficiently study the moral laws of the universe, but as science moves into that area (and it has begun), these will be discovered, just as physical laws have and are being discovered.
You wrote, “Can you explain faith to me? I’m probably asking you to pick apart something that to you is fundamental and unquantifiable, but it seems to be one of the many dead ends at which these sort of discussions end
e.g.-’But how do you know the bible is written by god’ ‘I have faith’ Is faith some sort of deep knowledge of the existence of god that for whatever reason I lack? ”
Faith is a difficult thing to define. I think the best way for me to describe it would be that it is a belief that you hold strongly enough to the point where it changes you to act upon it. For instance, you have faith a chair will hold you up when you sit down in it, even though you may have never sat in said chair before. It may be based upon knowledge gained by taking a chance (experimenting) with a lightly held belief. As your experiments succeed, your belief is confirmed and your knowledge and faith (not the same thing) both grow. I think its much like the development of a scientific theorem. You make a guess (or someone suggests something), you try it out, and you adjust based upon your results.
You wrote, “I’ve looked deep in myself, at the world, to people I love (my mother is a creationist), in the bible. I haven’t seen anything, anywhere that would make me believe anything other than-nobody really knows.”
I think God knows, and I think God wants us to know at least certain things at certain times. For this reason (among others), God has provided us the Bible, as well as sends visions, dreams and (I believe) visitations by angels.
You wrote, “I guess I’ll leave it at that for a while, please let me know if you’ll be moving our part of this discussion, as we seem to have moved on from this page’s topic.”
I will probably do that, as this is an interesting topic by itself. When I do, I’ll leave a note on here or email you.
“I’m really looking forward to hearing back, I’ll try to make more time to come on here, you know we’ve nearly been discussing these issues for a year now! Hopefully someday we’ll have been having this debate for years.”
I enjoy it, so I look forward to it. Thanks.
Yes, it was in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (depending on which parts you are discussing).
The Old Testament and the New Testament contain books (or scrolls or manuscripts) that have universally been agreed upon (by people who believe in God and Christ, etc) to have been written by God through men. There ARE other manuscripts that provide some historical or possibly spiritual information that some believe are also by God, but have not been widely accepted as such.
Translations are a good starting point, with the use of lexicons and dictionaries and commentaries, for study. But the best would be to read the texts in their original languages. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown an amazing degree of accuracy of the manuscript copies we currently have when compared to what was available at the time of Christ. And our translations are amazingly accurate as well. But the problem with translations is that there can multiple ways of saying the same thing, and sometimes cultural differences will cause a saying to mean something different than the literal translation of said saying. For instance, a “cup o joe” means a cup of coffee, but unless you are familiar with the culture, you might miss the actual meaning of the saying. This is why it is important to study the Bible in its historical, cultural, grammatical context.
Well, said, Wb. I have enjoyed reading the conversation.
Hey WB,
I read you were under the weather recently, hope you’re feeling better.
So, we have arrived at a sort of agreement between us on what our personal feelings and beliefs on homosexuality are and where they come from in our belief system. But is there any way to transfer this amicable grass roots acceptance of each other to the wider world? Would it do any good? Is the make up of individuals and society such that this will always be a conflict between homosexuals and evangelists?
Inherently, evangelism (encouraged by the bible) must take me aside, and explain my errors in the eyes of god.
For my part, I am a person who loves every second of every facet of my life. I work very hard; both for my employer and in the setting up of my own business, earn a good wage, go mountain climbing and skydiving and engage heavily in charity work. I have many friends who I love dearly and hundreds of close acquaintances. My life is far from perfect but I love and embrace every second of it. This limitless joy of existence is lived without believing in god, without believing the bible and without any sort of belief in an afterlife. in fact I actively call on people to question their faith and encourage the idea that this ‘faith’ may simply be (among other things) an emotional crutch for dealing with terrible personal loss or pain inflicted on them by others or by life’s random and unsafe nature.
That is to say, we both have our beliefs and feel the need to share them, with the intention of…(I don’t want to use the word ‘convert’) making the other aware that we are correct.
So, after the beliefs are shared, what’s the next step? I would find myself at a point where I can say ‘live and let live’. We can discuss the nature of the world and the universe untill the end of our days, and it doesn’t need to bother me that you don’t subscribe to my belief system, we’ll both pass away, and there we’ll find our answers. Unfortunately for you, your faith has told you that it’s your duty to make me understand the word of god, you can’t just say ‘live and let live’ because to do so would risk condemning me to hell (or whatever is suppossed to happen!).
Do we just come back to the issue of ‘absolute answers’ and say that we must debate for all of time, each of us trying to make the other subscribe to their beliefs? Thats a bit depressing…
On absolute answers: Sorry I wasn’t clear in that, when I said there are no absolute answers I meant in reference to more abstract concepts that can’t be empirically tested. Of course you can look around and even measure the absence of light with a photocell and refernece that to the time of day from a clock to conclude that it is indeed ‘night’. But rather I reffered to the ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Who am I?’ questions that I believe are not to be answered over the course of our lives. Even if they could be, I don’t think I’d want to know. If I found out I was going to live in a blissful heaven, then I wouldn’t know what it’s like to fall through the air at 120 miles an hour, or to gaze at the surrounding plains from a mountain peak. I would be too busy spreading the word of god and awaiting my reward in the next life. That not only takes away some of the most philosophical and truelly authentic experiences of my life, thereby lessening my experience. It also means that if we got it wrong, and the bible was in fact written by man, I would have wasted the one and only life I will get.
[Please note, I'm not saying that is the way those who believe the word of god live, I'm saying it is likely how I would live as a believer, based on my personality and approach to life].
With regard to faith, could you assign me a ‘faith experiment’ to try? You did mention one may need a lightly held belief to attempt one, wheras I merely have an openess to possibility, so it may be a waste of time.
With regard to gods knowledge of whats going on, I cannot accept that the bible is his word, I would say the middle step of God to man to bible completely negates any infallibility as man is flawed and cannot be trusted as the author of gods word. So I’ll have to await a vision, dream or visit from an angel. Who knows what the future will hold!
What is your view on Christians who believe in Christ and god, but believe the Old Testament to be a collection of parables, full of metaphors and open to interpretation?
a pleasure as always, look forward to hearing from you =]
hope you keep well
Hi Kyp.
Yes, I’ve had some rather large kidney stones the medicos felt they needed to remove and/or pulverize. Apparently the place I live has twice the national average for people developing kidney stones – possibly the diet or the humidity of the area. They are not sure which. Unfortunately, they apparently still need to do it once more. I hate how the medicine affects me. But I believe there is a reason for it and that I simply have to wait to discover the fuller meaning of it all. :) Thanks for the well wishes.
Hmm… transferring an amicable understanding of our individual positions concerning homosexuality (or anything God has said not to do) and God to the wider world would do nothing but make the world a better place, I believe. I think there HAS to acceptance by people on both sides of any given issue for there to be any hope of peace in the world. Of course, I am not speaking of those issues which more obviously harm society, such as purposefully harming someone else, but of the other things God has said to not do. I DO think there will always be a conflict at some level between people with differently held beliefs (such is the case with any disagreement), but I don’t think it must be an unamicable one.
I think part of evangelism is helping people become aware of the existence of God and the need people have for or of Him. Part of that entails pointing out where people do not line up with what God has said. This is not restricted to desires and actions in the sexual area of life, but in all areas. We are merely speaking of homosexuality in this dialog because it happened to be the topic that attracted you to my blog. But for me, the same issues are involved in other areas of life: addiction, abuse, selfishness, etc. I see my role as an evangelist being one where I am present in the lives of people and share my thoughts on the issues of life and God.
That being the case, I am in conflict (on a mild level) with people even within the larger ‘church’. I say this because there are many in the church who do not live as God would have us live. This does not mean I am free to pass judgement on a person – God created us all and loves us all. I AM, however, called to point out what God has said and let people make up their own minds on whether they will accept what God has said and will on whether they are prepared to step up and make changes in their lives in that area that would bring them more in line with what God has said. None of us are perfect, and that is why I say ‘more in line’, rather than simply ‘become who God wants them to become’.
I think the role of each of us is to become who God wants us to become. But its a process that will not be complete in this life, I don’t believe. But, we can become kinder, more loving, more patient, more forgiving, more self-sacrificial, more obedient to God. This is what will make us better people in this world, but also make us more in line with what God has said.
You are mistaken that I can not ‘live and let live’. I can. Its a choice. But you are correct in saying I should work to help you (anyone) accept what God has said and done because I love God and people and do not want to see them making the wrong choice in what I consider to be the ultimate question. But I have people in my life I love dearly who are in no way prepared to make what I would consider to be the right decision. This does not mean I have nothing to do with them. It simply means I pray for them and hope for the best when I am given the freedom to share the love of God with them in ways they will find beneficial.
But letting people live the life they choose to live is an essential part of who I am. No one can try force some one to make a truly lasting choice on something of this import and expect any sort of positive internal change. And being judgemental does not help either, as we then lose our ‘right’ to share God’s love with the very people we want to agree with us. This is something many truly well meaning people miss – on both sides. People MUST learn to differentiate between what a person does and who the person is. Unfortunately, many of us feel everyone simply MUST believe as we do in the areas of life we consider to be important or they are bad people or unintelligent or fill_in_the_blank. This is an attitude idealistic youth have, but which we must move beyond if there is to be any hope of peacable disagreement and discussion.
Unfortunately, I must go to work right now. But I’ll try to finish more on this topic in a bit.
I appreciate YOUR patience with me as we discuss this.
hey wb..here’s my five cents worth..hot and heated topic,homosexuality and any form of sexual sin..and many are the opinions ..I find most arguements are centered around the letter of the law verses the grace of God,and repentance is always emphasized in every discussion on these topics..but one thing I find missing in most such conversations/discussions/arguements/disagreements is the POWER of God, you know the miraculous power that causes the blind to see in an instant,the lame to walk,the food to multiply,the water to change to good wine type of power…not your average intellectual power of “I have read more than you”,or your financial power,or political power or even military power. I wonder what would happen to any sinner who walks into a church that actually operated with consistant sustainable miraculous power on a daily basis..oops..I forgot ..such a church no longer exist. I mean when was the last time you personally saw a blind man see,a lame man walk ,a deaf person hear at your local church of Jesus Christ?Perhaps if christians has miraculous power as well as the love,faith,peace and message..the homosexuals would find themselves changed like water to good wine by the glory of God..and with that same power they might find themselves able to master the sins that crouch at all all our doors.But than,we are so fearful of the power of signs ,wonders and miracles that we are all convinced that anyone who speaks about them much less does them must be a false prophet.The answer to homosexuality?..same answer for all sin..faith in Jesus Christ,through whom all sins are forgiven those who repent and POWER is given to sustain them..power ..real Holy Spirit power, not talk..for the Kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of POWER.Power to drive out those demons that possess and decieve them,and power to heal them from the abuse,hurts and rejections and power to keep them healed and free,power for them to be witnesses of Jesus..not just believers.As i said, I find that one word is always missing in such conversations..POWER.Check your blog above and see if that word is there.Dr.Ed.Good to see me mate poly is blogging on,I was concerned when he disappeared from word press.
Kyp,
Sorry its taken so long for me to get back to this. Picking up where I left off, I don’t think we must FORCE anyone to believe anything. As I wrote earlier, that will not cause actual internal change, just external acquiescence.
As for abosolute answers in things that can not be tested, such as ‘Why are we here?’ ‘Who am I?’, I think there ARE absolute answers in these areas. I think the Bible has clear answers for these sorts of questions. But for one to accept them, one must first believe that God exists and is powerful enough and loving enough, and caring enough, to write a series of letters to teach people who He is, what He has done, what He expects for us and from us, and what He WILL do, and how humans have, do, and will, respond.
But I think we CAN respond to God’s call AND live lives that allow us to enjoy things in life. God uses our experiences in our future to His purposes. Some of us will be bikers for Christ. Only some are called to be pastors or missionaries. Others will be sky divers for Christ. Others will be scuba divers for Christ. Others will be rodeo cowboys for Christ. Others will be computers programmers, teachers, doctors, policemen, firemen, etc. – all for Christ. We do those things AND share the truth of God AND look forward to being with Christ in eternal life. If we’re wrong, we still live lives full of hope. If we’re right, then we go to be with Christ in heaven. I don’t see how one can lose with those facts, given that I have walked life with God and life WITH God. I find life with God much better – even if I have difficulty in life.
As for a faith experiment, I’m afraid I can not assign one to you. For me, I was in a difficult time and asked God to show me if Christ was really His Son and the only way to be with Him. He managed to show me and tell me at the same time. I can’t tell you what will cause you to be able to believe, except to say it will not happen before God decides for it to happen, and as Edmond wrote, it takes the power of God. Without God moving in you, you can not respond. If you want it, or you want evidence of God, ask Him.
You wrote, “I would say the middle step of God to man to bible completely negates any infallibility as man is flawed and cannot be trusted as the author of gods word.”
I would have to say that you then have a small view of God. Let me ask you, is it possible for a computer program to do exactly what it is supposed to do? Man is flawed, and yet can create beautiful works of art and machinery (like robots) that do exactly what they are supposed to do. I’m not saying every robot is perfect, as they break down, and humans must repair them and sometimes address errors in design or execution of the design. But if man can create robots which perform much of the work in assembling a car, or a machine which performs electric shock on someone in cardiac arrest, then God, who is SOOoooo much greater than man, can certainly create men who will write what HE wanted written when HE wants it written.
While the human authors were all different, had different cultures, different experiences, lived in different places, spoke different languages, had different occupations, addressed different issues and different audiences at different times, the message of the Bible is a complete message. God used men to write the message HE wanted communicated, using men to accomplish what HE wanted to accomplish.
you wrote, “What is your view on Christians who believe in Christ and god, but believe the Old Testament to be a collection of parables, full of metaphors and open to interpretation?”
I think it would be different for each person. At best, they have little faith in God. In some cases, people purposefully ignore data. In other cases, they want to paint God as inept or powerless. In other cases, they have difficulty believing God is powerful enough or loving enough to write In still other cases, they want to try to make the BIble say something it does not, and in order to do so, they much change its meaning – so they have to turn it into metaphors and analogies or mythology. But the thing is, archeology and historians have shown much of the places, cultures, and people written of in the Bible existed. Given that God is powerful enough to create a universe (regardless of how you think He did so), then what makes Him so powerless that He can’t accurately relay what He wants communicated across time and space and culture and language?
Hi Edmond,
I agree with you: it is the power of God which enables one to turn from sin and to God. Sometimes He does it all at once, and sometimes over a period of time, and sometimes in stages. I was delivered from a life long smoking addiction, long after turning to God. God can heal or speak to people or speak through people even today – whether it is for guidance or warning in a current situation or to tell about what will come. I know from personal experience. I firmly believe all the spiritual gifts written of in the Bible are in use in God’s Church today. I’m not so convinced every local congregation will have, or even need, every spiritual gift.
Hey WB,
I was woried about you, great to see you back though- I didn’t think you were ok!!
I like to think that i have the same difficulties in life, but WB, how can you attribute all this to a guy you read about in a scroll from a cave? I’m sorry but it seems so sad. I have written many stories- fact, fiction, fantasy fiction. What if my little stories were found in a thousand years and silly people of the time thought they were based on fact? Not only would i be very embarassed, they’d be believing a lie. It’s just words, from a cave, just because some of the information is historically accurate doesn’t make them fact- it just means they were written at that time.
I think by saying ” Big mysterious power make all things” you are losing out on an immense amount of the natural beauty of the iniverse-both in the natural world and in how people treat each other.
Take the Mormon faith as an example. Most mormons I talk to claim to believe it’s teachings, but really they love the life it gives them, a wholesome life, based around family. These are good tenants, but please, stop saying you know what happens after death, because you don’t. The christians don’t, the atheists don’t, the buddhists don’t, the mormons don’t, no-one does, and saying you do doesn’t give you the right to exert your will over people, it makes you a small minded idiot, who thinks that removing a persons free will makes you better than them. Why do people belive stupid things like “Heaven”, “Reincarnation” “jihad”? It’s beyond silly, it’s so dangerous, and kills so many people. WB, the world is so terrible because of this stuff, it’s some scolls, we found in a cave! Can you please just not see sense and live a life based around respect for individuals and personal responsibility- because the world this will build will be so great, and so righteous. -Kryp
allow me to clarify that large jump- christians, atheists, buddhists, mormons, muslims and pretty much all organised religions say that they know what happens when you die, and possesion of such unearthly power, gives them power over the individual. To hold such answers is godly…isn’t it?
Kryp, I don’t want to impose over WB, but no one found these ’stories’ 1000 years later, but belief has coexisted with them since they were written.
We do know what happens after death, because we had One who came back to tell us! These are not ’stupid things’ but tenants of life itself. (By the way, Jihad is a present war, not something to do with the afterlife).
If people would follow Christianity, the world would be great and righteous, but they do not.
To say what happens in the afterlife, does not give religion power over the individual. If no one chooses to follow Christianity, that is their problem. If they do, they do. Christianity is a community, when assembled correctly.
Hi Kryp!
Thanks for your concern. I’m back, but not back. I’m just beginning to read again, but don’t feel led to create new posts as of yet. Lots going in my life outside of here.
I think we all face many of the same problems in life, although some will be specific to the culture in which we live.
I attribute the answers God has provided to a God who is loving enough to interact with His creation, and powerful enough to ensure the message He wants transmitted is what is written an maintained through out time. You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. but the difference is in what do you place your faith? I place my faith in a God who has made it clear to me that He exists and that He wants to interact with me in a relationship – part of which includes a collection of manuscripts He has chosen to have written and maintained across time and culture and language. You choose to place your faith in man and his uncertain interpretation of events (ask two people to describe an event, and you will get different descriptions). God has maintained a consistent message across thousands of years and 40 human writers. Man keeps changing his message – regardless of the topic. God’s message shows a unity of message and a consistency that is surprising to even those who study such things. You question the historicity and accuracy of the Bible, but it has been shown time and again to be accurate.
I think secular scientists say the same thing as a mysterious power made things when they claim everything began with the big bang and formed across time following natural laws they still do not thoroughly understand – and in some cases distort or ignore data which refutes their suppositions and explanations. Some well known secular scientists would rather believe the earth was populated by unknown aliens, than believe God formed them, and yet have no explanation for where THOSE beings came from or how they were originally formed. None of us have knowledge we do not have (yes :) I said it the way I meant it).
But we each have faith. We each have knowledge we have either been shown or discovered. Some of it has been substantiated by others and some of it has not. Sometimes scientists believe they have THE explanation for something, and only later find they were mistaken. This is often the case when we interpret data. The Bible is a history of interaction between God and man, through the eyes of one tribe. The thing is, the scrolls that make up the Bible were NOT simply discovered in a cave. Men wrote the message God intended them to write. In some cases, the message was kept in a temple; in others cases, by people fleeing persecution; in most cases, they were never out of the possession of people who passed them on to others. In one case, a scroll was found in what used to be the temple of God. People died to get the message out. Does that automatically make it right – no. But it does lend credence to the idea these things should be studied. Sometimes we set out to investigate something in order to refute it before we believe in it. Sometimes God simply gives simple faith to believe. Sometimes God substantiates what He had written in other ways.
But the thing is, those who truly believe in, and obey, the God of the Bible do not live lives that make the lives of others more difficult. Men use religion, and I include science in the category of religion, to make themselves feel better or to control others or to better their positions. But faithful men use religion to better who they are and the lives of those around them. But true Christians share the love they have for and from God with others in a lifestyle of servanthood. We pray God will enlighten others. But we do not force our beliefs on others. In my opinion, only misguided people try to force anything.
As for life after death, many different groups of people have many different ideas concerning it. To my knowledge, only one person (Jesus the Christ) has come back after dying to remind us of what He taught. Why do people believe things like black holes? Its because they have evidence which convinces them of that description of a phenomena which can now begin to be studied. I have experience with spiritual beings – the Bible mentions some of these beings. I don’t tend to believe in a theory without some evidence to back it up. Do I have evidence of heaven? – no. But I DO have evidence of spiritual beings speaking to me, giving me signs, helping me out of impossible situations. This evidence substantiates what I have read in the Bible – including life after death. I have known people who had a relationship with Jesus and died. Theirs was a peaceful death, and in many cases, they were smiling and speaking with someone as they passed away. On the other hand, many who had died without such a relationship have passed away screaming at something(s) to keep away from them. There IS evidence. one must simply investigate it.
I don’t know what you are speaking about concerning someone exerting their will upon others. I don’t know if you were calling me a small minded idiot or claiming I am removing someone’s free will, or not. But I don’t think I do either. If I have, please inform me, because I don’t want to impose. However, by the same token, everyones’ so called rights do not give them the right to impose their free will upon me either. I believe we must respect each other and be responsible for our choices and actions. I don’t believe anyone is any better or any worse than anyone else. I DO have judgements of right and wrong, some of which is based upon what the Bible teaches, and some of it is not. But I think God has made it clear we have all free will, which He maintains while also maintaining His sovereignty and the ability to have a perfect plan that includes every decision we will ever make – including whether to believe in Him or not, including whether to love Him or not, including whether to obey Him or not.
Christians stopped slavery in England, and still strive to stop it worldwide. Christians have built and maintained hospitals and schools and orphanages across the world – with no hope or desire for profit, simply out of love for God and others.
As for killing, more people have been killed in the name of racial cleansing and governmental control than in the name of religion. Consider Germany, China, North Korea, and Russia to name a few. Religion was not the driving factor in any of those places when the marxists, socialists, communists (depending upon which region and time we are speaking) chose to murder and/or imprison millions upon millions. People without God are not the answer. They tend to do bad things. People with religion will sometimes do better things (as will some people without religion). But people with God as their driving force (not those who simply claim such, but those who truly have Him), make lives better.
The thing with claiming man without God will make this place a righteous and great place is that men change what they consider to be righteous over time and in different cultures. Even within the same culture, some would consider it righteous to kill the unborn, handicapped, elderly, and sick. I myself find that atrocious, but that is because God has shown me how much He loves us. Before I became grounded in what God teaches, I believed similarly about at least one of those issues. People do not agree on right and wrong, so how could we agree on what is great and righteous? But God has said what is right and wrong, and HE does not change.
As for claiming to know what happens when one dies, if that knowledge does not come from God, then yes, it would be considered ungodly. But if the knowledge comes from God, then by definition, it is godly.
Greetings all: Wb may the Lord strengthen you to stand as well as wisdom too sow! As for homosexuals being born that way, Gods word says we were born into iniquity. Each sinner “chooses” what sin they serve. Which is why Jesus said I came to SET the captives free. Freedom from sin is the result of being born again. As for kryp saying he looks to space and sees so much more. Gods word says the heavens declare His glory. Such amazing creation shouts I LoVe You! As a painting from a master paineter. No eye has scene nor ear has heard what God has in store for those who love :I’m. Gods mind is finite God is infinatent. For we see now but in a mirror but soon face to face. When God shall cleanse this earth for a new earth and new heaven where sin shall not be. Nor corruption, nor tears or pain. Men seek all these things now without Gods approval. For the ways of foolish man are vain to Gods plan. Its evident that man and man cannot be fruitful, as they couldn’t begindn human life nor could they sustain it as they can’t bear children. That’s evidence such ways is sinful against Gods purpose.Malachi 2:ww-16 speaks of godly offspring which can only happen in godly marriage Man and Women! God bless!
That is Malachi 2:11-16. The word of God is rich and beyond reproach which is why hateufl man has never been able too defeat it. Its alive and active, transforming obediant believersM people scoff who choose not to repent and honor Gods truths. As Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and a strangers they shall not followM as a stranger will lead people on the broad road of destruction. On such a road everything is kosher but serving Gods truths!
Hi truthislove45,
I think kryp is exploring the ability to have meaning conversation about many topics he might not have freedom to do so elsewhere. That is part of why this blog exists – to teach what God has said, and one of the characteristics of teaching is discussion. All topics and people are welcome, so long as no one sets out to purposefully offend.
I love discussing the deeper meaning of things and possible manifestations and ramifications of thought/belief with kryp. He has a fine mind, asks good questions and makes good points – and is polite to boot! :) I believe he thinks I have a narrow mind about faith and God, but does not realize I have explored ‘no faith’ and ‘faith’. I have explored various religious ideas from different perspectives. I find God and the Bible makes the most sense.
Hi Polycarp, I wasn’t presenting Jihad as something to do with the afterlife more as a fictitious construct given power by the belief of man, like money or ‘celebrity status’.
I can understand that as well as being found in caves the stories were also passed down from generation to generation, this does nothing to convince me of their
unbiased, unconditional accuracy in every detail.
You are right when you say that if everyone was christian the world would be great and righteous. This can also be said for islam, buddhism, atheism, and my own ‘no
requirement for faith’. If everyone thought and believed the same things the world would truelly be great and righteous.
Hey WB, hope you’re well and truelly on the mend. I’m sorry I haven’t been around more, I’ve really been enjoying life so much lately discovering new hobbies, people and music I haven’t spent much time on the internet!
First of all I don’t think you can call science a religion. Religion is a set list of doctrines and beliefs based on faith and geographical location. Science is a constantly evolving set of rules that have been empirically proven to the best of our current ability
I agree that only misguided people try to force anything the only way for peaceful co-existance on this planet is for us to try to respect and try to learn from each others beliefs.
In the bible who saw jesus rise from the dead?
I’m very interested when you mention experience with supernatural beings- are you in a position to elaborate?
I have seen two people die, both had a loose belief in god and died doped up on morphine. I have some theories here but I could not base a debate like this on my theories, I’ll have to bow to your experience and simply say: Let’s see what mine will bring.
When I mentioned people exerting their will I was refering to things like baptism (conscription at birth), missions that give food to the hungry in exchange for belief in a god. Here in Ireland kids hold out for the communions and confirmations
because they are huge sources of income from relatives and friends. These focus around the religion I have first hand experience of, there are ways in which all religions do this I’m just not completely familiar with them.
I am certainly not calling you a small minded idiot, I apologise for the phrasing.
I don’t agree with your views but I am impressed with how you express them and these discussions serve only to fuel my faith in mankind.
The point was refering both at the structure of religious organisations and at specific individuals, examples ranging from Fred Phelps to Father Rizek,
from the Cleric who sends naive kids out in bomb belts to become martyrs to any of the Priests here in Ireland who used their position to have sex with children. All these people claim to have answers to the unanswerable in life
and this gives them power. We give this power to a broad group of people, many of whom do not abuse it, but I feel the harm done by those who do abuse it completely
negates any good done by others.
I would and will work to stop slavery. I intend to build hospitals, schools and orphanges across the world and have already built a self help community centre in Cambodia as part of an organisation I helped to found-with no hope for desire or profit, simply out of a love for others and a strong sense of what the right thing to do is.
It’s not a defense to say that politcs kills more than religion, we’re not talking about politics here. Think Jihads and the Crusades.
I appreciate your point about what is “righteous”. Firstly i’m going to substitute the word moral, the word righteous really gets to me, it conjurs images of those “holier than thou” self satisfied types who get up in your face and go on about how wrong you are! Somantics aside. I can’t think of an easy answer to this, but i believe there is one. Many cultures would appoint elders who will set the moral compass of a society without religious connotations, maybe something could be based around that
but as i said there’s no answer but I have FAITH (…=]…) we could find one as a race.
I would like your opinion on this matter as it’s become an issue here at the moment. The ever raging dispute about ‘gay marriage’ seems to revolve around the idea that marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. But civil partnership with different rights does not appeal to homosexuals. So why then does the state not surrender it’s involvement with the sacred instition of marriage, leave it to the church and assume responsiblity only for civil partnership between two individuals? I don’t see how it’s up to the state to decide who wants to commit themselves to each other, that is down to a persons religion and morals. Just a thought, I’d like to hear the arguments against.
Thank you as always WB, I try to have conversations like these with many people but so many people will say things that they can’t back up with any actual knowledge or rigid faith, it’s refreshing have someone who can answer those questions.
Truthislove taking such simple points as godly evidence does not bear out. You could simply say that homosexuality is birth control, one of god’s ways’ of stopping the worlds population from spiraling wildly out of control. I’m not saying I neccesarily believe that, it’s just illustrating a point.