What follows is part of a conversation between myself and someone who wants to justify homosexual sex and marriage.
He said, “lev not all prohibitions were of themselves sins”
It is clear Lev 18:22 (“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable”) is a prohibition.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the SINFUL DESIRES of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to SHAMEFUL lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for UNNATURAL ones. 27 In the same way the men also ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed INDECENT acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a DEPRAVED MIND, TO DO WHAT OUGHT NOT TO BE DONE. 29 They have become filled with every kind of WICKEDNESS, EVIL, GREED AND DEPRAVITY. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 ALTHOUGH THEY KNOW GOD’S RIGHTEOUS DECREE THAT THOSE WHO DO SUCH THINGS DESERVE DEATH, THEY NOT ONLY CONTINUE TO DO THESE VERY THINGS BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.
There is nothing about shamebased lust – only sinful desire. The lust was not called shame based, but shameFUL lust – that of a man for a man and of a woman for a woman.
Notice that God called same gender sex detestable, sinful, sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, and indecent. Even simple sexual desire between people of the same gender is sinful.
So yes, same gender sex is a sin – in Old and New Testaments
“malebed cannot mean homosexuality,”
What verse do you think says malebed?
“ because homosexual bonding of committed relationships that lead to marriage are of the fruit of the spirit. the spirit is not against itself”
You are inserting your desires into what Scripture actually says.
It is evident that the Bible calls homosexual sex something that ought not to be done, and evil and wicked.
“are you saying that under the new covenent that we are under regulation. that under the new covenent god has new laws that are not about violation of spirit,”
We are not to rely upon the Law for righteousness. But the Law teaches us what is sin.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
We are to be controlled by the Spirit, and the Spirit does not lead us to sin – we are to submit to the law of God, not that it saves us, but that it pleases God.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
In fact, we are to live lives as free of sin as possible.
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
“AGAIN THE SPIRIT CANNOT BE AGAINST ITSELF”
And again, the Spirit of GOD will not contradict GOD. God said homosexual sex is a sin in both the Old and New Testament. But other spirits certainly do contradict God all the time.
“homosexuals like heterosexuals worship and turn to god.”
Paul was very clear about the need to repent from sexual immorality.
2 Corinthians 12:21
I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
Repenting does not mean continuing to sin – it means turning from sin and turning TO God. Of course, the topic here is homosexual sex, but this applies to all sin – we are to strive to live holy lives, leaving our sin behind – regardless of what that sin is (for a homosexual, this would mean leaving behind homosexual sex; for a drunkard, it means leaving behind getting drunk).
“as believers in christ their is nothing we of ourselves apart from christ can do to make ourselves holy. it is christ who lives in us that makes us holy. and it is our faith in him that that allows for him to live in us.”
It IS Christ who makes us holy, IF WE REPENT. But if we do not repent, we are not holy – we fool ourselves.
“that is if homosexuality is a sin which it isnt. THE SPIRIT CANNOT BE AGAINST ITSELF”
You and Scripture do not agree. God has declared homosexual sex a sin. I suggest you repent from sin and turn to God.
(about John 14:21-24)
“your interpretation is that if one obeys his commands and follows his teaching he loves christ and the father………………….NOI!!!!!!!!!! there can be a million reasons to follow something none of which is about love. RATHER it is if you love me ………………..you will obey my command and follow my teaching.”
But Christ made it clear, if you love Him, you will obey Him. If you do not love Him, you will not obey Him.
“to fulfill the first commandment requires fulfilling the second, FIRST, that is why the 2nd is called the greatest”
You just contradicted Christ Himself. Christ said the greatest commandment is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
“again HOW DOES THE ESSENCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY COME AGAINST THE 2ND COMMANDMENT.?”
Homosexual sex goes against both the first commandment and the second. As I have already shown. But I will succinctly reiterate: By choosing sinful sex over God’s word, you show you do not love God, NOR the person you choose to have sex with.
“how does homosexuality come against loving your brother. homosexual living and marriage is of the fruit of the spirit in the same way that heterosexuality is . what is in your head, does not negate the reality of the spirit, for which YOU HAVE NO WITNESS. THE SPIRIT DOES NOT COME AGAINST ITSELF.”
No one led by the Spirit of God will think that homosexual sex is acceptable to God in any circumstance. God has declared it sin. The Holy Spirit, being God, does not contradict God.
“homosexuals believe and have faith in christ their savior and are saved.”
Christ is the source of eternal salvation for those that obey Him – but people who choose to sin rather than leave a live of sin (whether that be homosexual sex, adultery, drunkenness, or some other life of sin) do not obey Him.
“your understanding of what is sin is merely in your head because you have no witness to substaniate the REALITY OF THE SPIRIT. “
You are wrong. I have the word of God, and Holy Spirit, being God, does not contradict God. God said a man is not to lie with a man as if with a woman.
“homosexual committed marriages are of the fruit of the spirit in the same way heterosexual marriages are.THE SPIRIT DOES NOT COME AGAINST ITSELF”
They might or might not look similar, but since God has made clear that homosexual sex is a sin, and that a man is to marry a woman, and that a woman is to marry a man, homosexual sex and marriage are not of God.
“a child of god is anyone within whom christ lives, anyone who has faith in him as their savior”
But if they have said faith, they will REPENT, that is to say, they will leave their lives of sin.
“anyone who is homosexual has the same oppurtunity as anyone heterosexual to to become a child of god…………………..thru faith in christ.”
Remember, the command is to repent and turn to God. Paul said we need to prove our repentance – there MUST be evidence of turning from sin to God. Continuing to practice homosexual sex is evidence of the contrary.
“what determines what is a sin is not what is in your head but thru the witness of the reality of the spirit.”
According to Scripture, it is GOD who determines what is sin. And GOD said homosexual sex is a sin.
“jesus’s words THAT SAY we can “you will recognize them by their fruit””
No, I have held it in mind very clearly, because if you leave sin behind to worship God, then you will show godly fruit. But if you do not leave your sin behind, you will show worldly fruit. Even pagans can be nice and “loving” as the world knows it. But this is not love as defined by God.
“does not galation delineate the fruit?”
Let us look at what God said in Galatians concerning fruit:
16 So I say, LIVE BY THE SPIRIT, AND YOU WILL NOT GRATIFY THE DESIRES OF THE SINFUL NATURE. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 THE ACTS OF THE SINFUL NATURE ARE OBVIOUS: SEXUAL IMMORALITY, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, FAITHFULNESS, 23 gentleness and SELF-CONTROL. Against such things there is no law. 24 THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST JESUS HAVE CRUCIFIED THE SINFUL NATURE WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
IF we claim to live by the Spirit, we will NOT gratify sinful desires. The acts of the sinful nature includes sexual immorality – which is a category of sexual sin including homosexual sex. We are to be faithful to GOD. We are to be self-controlled and not sin.
By choosing homosexual sex over what God has said, you show yourself not being faithful and self-controlled, but living by the sinful nature.