Why do some Christians believe men should lead and women should follow?

Some believe men should lead in marriage and women should be subject to their husbands. Others believe that scripture does not state women should be subject to men. The argument goes like this:

How much Bible evidence can you give for husbands’ authority over wifes, or ruler of homes? To recap, verses telling slaves to obey DO NOT teach that God’s design is for masters to have authority as slave owners, and verses telling women to submit should be read in a similar fashion. If you want to develop a Bible doctrine of male authority being God’s plan from the “women submit” verses, it would be as much a fallacy, as to develop a doctrine of slave owner authority being God’s plan from the teachings to slaves.

I agree that scripture concerning being a good master does not say there should be masters and slaves, but merely regulates that relationship.

However, this same thing can not be said for whether there should be husband and wife. Scripture is clear that woman was made for man.

Genesis 2:

18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”  19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

23The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”

24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Further, Scripture tells us that the woman is to be ruled by her husband, because Eve was deceived.

Genesis 3:16

16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

We see this expanded to the idea that a woman should not have authority over men because Eve was deceived – apparently Paul was speaking of authority in spiritual matters, and possibly limited to doctrine or the church environment, depending on one’s understanding of the context.

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Further still, scripture tells us the wife should submit to her husband.

Ephesians 5:22

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Colossians 3:18

18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:3

3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Now, I suppose one could still argue that women should not be subject to men, but this would only be true if the church is not subject to Christ. But scripture tell us that the church IS subject to Christ and in the same way, a wife should be subject to her husband.

Ephesians 5:23-25

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

To summarize, a man is subject to Christ. A wife is subject to her husband. The church together are subject to Christ. So while some might want to claim that men and women are to fulfill similar roles in the home, the Bible is clear that men are to lead and women are subject to their own husbands.

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59 Responses

  1. Wbmoore, this is not an argument (yet) but an opportunity for you to explain your view better. You heading has “men should lead and women should follow.” That goes a lot further than “”husbands should lead and wifes should follow.”

    Here are a few very diverse examples of cases, and you should tell me if men’s lead over women should apply here: (In none of these cases are the two husband and wife.)

    > A qualified female paramedic, and a man who only took a first aid course, is on an accident scene.

    > A man tries to rape a women.

    > A man tries to seduce a women.

    > A woman is in the shop and loads brand X margarine into her trolley. A man tells her to rather buy brand Y.

    > A woman and man do the same job for the same company. They have equal experience and are on the same level in company hierarchy. The man say they should rather follow a different procedure.

    > A female business owner interviews potential employees. Should she only hire women, as she should not lead males?

    > Two members of a church go in seperate cars to attend the same conference. She knows the way. He does not.

    > The male unbelieving pastor in a Chinese church (the goverment appoint leaders in the Three Self Church there) tells two women to stop photocopying Bible portions and gospel tracts for other Christians.

    > Suppose a blog argument take place about Bible understanding. Suppose the woman’s view is more scripturally supported than those of the man she argues with. Should he learn something, or should only the female

    Where does the men lead and women follow apply, outside of marriage? Who’se lead should a 21-year old single girl who’se dad passed away/ a 35-year-old divorced mother (let’s assume she was divorced for Biblically acceptable reasons) / a 47-year old spinster/ a 64-year old widow follow?

    • Hi Retha.

      Are you sure this is not an argument? It certainly appears as if you are looking for a fight.

      It is clear from the opening line of my post that I am speaking of marriage. I think the Bible is clear that men should lead in marriage and in the church. A woman should submit to her own husband (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 3:1), and ask questions of him at home rather than in church (1 Corinthians 14:35). She should submit to him even if he is not a Christian (1 Peter 3:1). The only exception would be that she should not follow him in sin (Deuteronomy 13:6-8; Proverbs 1:10; Acts 5:1-10).

  2. Thanks for clearing that up. And argument was not used in the sense of fighting, but of stating a case.

  3. You people repeatedly speak how women are to submit, yet hardly mention the husbands responsibility which is usually given in more words than the wifes.
    I think the limits of submission stop somewhat earlier than following in sin. For example: A father insult his daughter (undeservedly) regularly in such a harsh way that it has a long term effect on how she sees herself and how she relates to men. The wife submit to her husband by not saying to the girl, either before the father or behind his back, that these comments are not true. The wife do not follow in sin- she never insulted the daughter. But she neglected her duty to love her child and manage her household, if she does not, a) tell him that he scars the girl by his words and b) tell the daughter that this is not true and she should not see herself that way.

    • Retha,

      Can you show me in scripture where the limits in submission are?

      I think we are supposed to submit to those above us in authority because of God, not because of those we submit to. The only limit I can see is that we are not to sin. Of course, all God’s commands must be done simultaneously where possible. This means love and kindness and mercy and forgiveness and respect must be practiced while submitting to those in authority – and while leading.

      I have done some posts on the roles/behaviors of husbands as well as wives. But people dont tend to argue when you tell them to love, to be respectful, to encourage. I can even tell people to submit to their bosses or to the law and I rarely get argument. However, tell women of today to submit, and its common to have women come tell me all about how unfair it is, or how there are limits (or should be limits), how men dont deserve it, etc.

      It is not about what feels good or fair or convenient, nor it is about the man (regardless of whether he is nice or a tyrant). It is about God.

      God said to love and obey HIM – do you only do that when it appears easy? Do you only obey God when its convenient? Do you only obey God when it appears to be worth it? Do you only obey God when it is “fair?”

      As for your scenario of the wife not mitigating the misbehavior of the man mentioned above, If she did not show love then she sinned.

      • if the man who leads is a Godly man, then he will include his daily life and include her opinion, therefore its not a limits on submission. There are ways to write where it is clear NOONE would take this offensely. my husband didnt even appreciate the way you broke your whole page down. remember Christian men are peaceful loving and patient.

        • Perhaps YOU could have found a way to discuss submission where no one would be offended. Its been my experience that most women are offended at the idea of submitting to their own husbands. This is doubly true for men who are not godly.

          Maybe I might have been able to write this differently. But I’m not sure it would have said what needed to be said. Please, feel free to tackle doing so if you feel so led by God.

          Yes, in a perfect world, a Christian man will always be led by and submit to God. But often a woman is asked by God to show reverence for God by submitting to an ungodly man. In those instances, there most certainly IS a limit to submission.

          We must try to reflect God in all we are and do, but we all have limits. Sometimes a wife is ungodly, sometimes a husband is ungodly. Jesus is our model and HE certainly had limits to his patience (ie.. Whipping the money changers). Because of difference responses from different people, we must be careful to submit to God appropriately.

  4. I like your answer. Do not assume I have problems with submission. (This weekend on my blog, I will answer how it is possible to believe in submission, and still Biblically disbelieve the men-should-lead thesis.)

    Between us we made clear the important point that sin could also be through inaction when we should act, and there we agree. Sin is certainly the limit to submission, but sin should not be defined too narrowly.

    • Your earlier comments led one to believe you are against submission of a wife to her husband, or a church member to his/her church leaders.

      Sin is not narrowly defined by God. He has provided certain explicit examples, but it is anything not done in faith. This leads to a lot of things being considered sin, even if we might think them to be good things.

      I am curious to see how you justify the idea of men not having to be the leaders in the marriage or in church.

  5. WBMOORE, I am going to answer why so many people (both men and women) just cannot accept your argument that husbands should lead at all times. It is pretty simply… First, it makes very little sense for a wife to submit to her husband in ALL cases. There are so many exceptions where it just does not make sense to follow. For example, if a wife is a medical doctor and the husband is a economics professor. Any reasonably bright man would follow his wifes lead on all health related issues regarding the family. This is one example where a husband should follow his wife.

    There are countless other examples where a man should follow his wifes lead. Most intelligent couples know this and form a working partnership based on the strengths of each person.

    Basic common sense says your argument just does not work. Normal intelligent people see the flaws and adjust their lives accordingly (i.e. form a partnership with their spouse). The scripture just cannot be that out of whack with reality leading to the fact that different interpretations must exist that make more sense.

    • I think you confuse wisdom and leadership with knowledge and skill. If we were discussing ability or knowledge, you might have a point – but not really. One can be quite able in certain areas without being able in other areas. Plenty of managers and CEOs have no idea how to most of the jobs that are required to be done in their company or management area. Yet, that has no bearing on who is leading. Leadership is a separate issue from the skills and knowledge necessary to do certain functions.

      Leaders take advantage of (utilize) people and their knowledge and skills to accomplish a goal. This is what a husband is to do – lead his family to raise and train the children to know, love, and trust God and advance the family.

      But actually, that is not addressing the point of this post. The point of THIS post is what does GOD say about who is to lead in marriage?
      God said that a husband is to lead his wife.

  6. Some wives have more wisdom and ability to lead as well. That’s the crux of the issue and how to deal with reality as it relates to different interpretations of the bible. It is very difficult to ignore the elephant in the room which is reality – some wives simply are stronger leaders.

    • I wouldn’t disagree with the idea that some people, regardless of gender are better at certain things than others, including leading.

      But Eve allowed herself to be deceived and Adam allowed himself to take the easy way out and for that reason God made a judicial decree of cursing against both man and wife.

      So, do you go with what you think is best or what the Bible clearly specifies? Your choice, obey or find a way to excuse what you want.

  7. I said judicial decree because Genesis 3:11-19 is a judicial decree that was passed in judgement of Satan and Eve and Adam.
    Because of what the various parties did, God decreed certain things would occur.

    The serpent is cursed; it will go about on its belly; there will be enmity between it and the woman and the offspring of both (indeed, this is thought to be a prophecy of Christ coming to conquer Satan).
    God will increase Eve’s pain in childbirth, yet she will desire her husband and he will rule over her.
    The ground is cursed because of Adam and he must toil all the days of his life to eat of it. Man will eat vegetables of the field. The ground will grow thorns and thistles. Man will sweat to eat bread.

    Now in reference to has the better ability to lead, there are plenty of examples of inept leadership in the world, so saying the better qualified is the one who would be leader doesnt even work in the world.

    God did not say man would be better qualified or even a better leader, but that the man would be the leader because of what Eve had done (or allowed to be done to her, or was done to her, depending on how you read it).

  8. God also gave us the ability to reason and to think on our own to make this world a better place.

    I am not content with allowing my reasoning and basic common sense to be suppressed. God wants us to think and to act in smart ways that are better for the world. This is one way we can be more enlightend.

    • I am not saying to suppress your reasoning. I agree we should work smart and be good stewards of what God has given us. But we have to be careful to not disobey God. When our reasoning goes beyond what God has said, when it ignores or contradicts what God has said, then we put ourselves and others in danger.

      Often what sounds good is not what God would have us do.
      1 Corinthians 1:20
      Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

      1 Corinthians 3:18-20
      18 Let no man deceive himself If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; 20 and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.”

      Colossians 2:8
      See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

      Above all, we need to trust God, to obey God. Christ is source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him – not for those those who ignore scripture and decide they know better than God.
      Hebrews 5:9
      and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

  9. I also want to say that this does not mean many husbands are not great leaders and worthy of that post. Just that not all are and that it does not make sense.

    Having a great loving mutually respectful relationship that allows for great community involvement, ability to raise well adjusted and beautiful children sometimes happens with leadership from the wife. It just does.. it is reality.

    You can claim it is not and the male is the leader, but sometimes it just is not so. Even when all the love and goodness that is meant by God exists in the family.

    This is the elephant in the room.

    Thank you for having this conversation. I appreciate your openness on the subject. I also think your efforts and contributions to others is very profound and good.

    • I agree that sometimes the woman is the better leader. That has NEVER been my contention. If I have given that impression, please forgive me as I never intended to state that.

      There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt that some men are idiots. :) Others are jerks. :) Others are simply incapable of making good decisions and the best decision the man makes (in terms of earthly living) is to let his wife make most of the decisions.

      BUT, and this is a big but, IS that what GOD said to do?

      For me, it all boils down to what does God say.

      Thank you for your kind words. I try to allow myself to be used by God to teach His word in all areas of life. I’m sure I make mistakes. But one has to show me in scripture and not argue from the world to make me see it. I can agree with you about how things appear based upon our personal experiences, but if the scripture says something different, then I have to realize my perception of reality may be tainted by the sin in the world, or that I may not understand WHY God has said something and I need to study further.

      For me, its all about what has God said….

  10. The question is whether we are understanding the interpretation. Is there a more wise way to interprete the bible to help the world be a better place.

    I had a Catholic priest once tell me that the written word in the bible is very difficult to interprete. That is why jesus lead by example and did not write anything down himself. He believed that he needed to lead by example and that written word would lead people astray. Gandhi believed this too. That is the hard part about understanding the written word. That is why common sense and individual thinking is so important.

    • Personally, I think MOST of the written word of God is easy to understand, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It becomes harder when we allow our sin nature to not allow us to hear or accept what God says. And ALL of us do that.

      Let us go about this differently, how do you understand Genesis 3:11-17?

  11. Well, I think it is deep and symbolic. Eve ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge. God warned her because once you eat from the tree of knowledge you are no longer innocent. You grow and learn.

    Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, he would grow and learn as well. The curse of knowledge also brings the curse of evil. Evil is what causes man to exercise his dominence over women. The dominence did not exist until evil from eating from the tree of knowledge existed.

    A blissful existence is where Adam and Eve are partners in paradise. The more we are equal/partners the closer we are to god and to the original culture of Eden.

    The Tree of Knowledge is both a curse and a blessing. God doesn’t believe that Adam should rule, he knows that the tree of Knowledge will cause Adam to learn how to use his strength to dominate Eve even though it is not what God wants for Adam and Eve (or Men and Woman).

    • That’s a beautiful image. I would caution that we do not know what form of government God intended. There is little in scripture about how much time passed from when God had created Adam to when he created Eve – other than it was done on the sixth day. There is also little said about the relationship between Adam and Eve other than she was made for Him. We are only told that God decreed that Eve would be ruled by Adam AFTER the sin, we know nothing of what happened before.

      But let me ask, what were the results of the sins of Adam and Eve?

  12. The story is quite symbolic and difficult to fully understand because of some of the inconsistencies with our modern time. We can still learn from it, but I think we need to be careful to take it too literally.

    I believe it was meant for a people who could not read or write. They needed guidance to help under stand the world around them. Medicine at the time was very limited. Life was simply very very different. Fortunately, most people can now read and write. We also live a lot longer. We have a lot more resources and we are able to live differently now. The same core principles/messages will always be relevant, but much has changed in our daily experiences.

    Women do not have to endure a lot of physical pain anymore during child birth (modern medicine has changed that). Men do not have to take on the entire burden of providing for the family (women now help with that). Men also do not have labor intensive jobs in farming like they used to. Modern equipment has changed that entirely. Many of the punishments for eating the fruit no longer exists. Life has changed a lot for many people. How do you explain that?

    • I see it as literal with some symbolism. But it is a historical account of what God has done and what Adam and Eve did.

      You might think women do not have to endure pain in childbirth, and perhaps in your case it was. But I was present for the births of all my children, and I was there afterwards. Its painful, even with medication and even with an epidural, and its painful afterwards. I’ve known women for whom childbirth was relatively easy, but they still claimed it was painful both during or afterwards or both – with and without medicine and epidurals. Painful child birth is something that is a reality.

      Men are still laboring to get food – many of whom are farming or ranching, others in less dirty jobs but stressful, or difficult, or dangerous, none-the-less. The punishment will never be abated, regardless of what utopia people might want to create, until Christ returns.

  13. Okay. Obviously if you take the bible literally then we will not be on the same page. I have a hard time with the inconsistencies and the problems that things do not match reality.

    I have had two children. With proper medications child birth is not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. 1 in 4 women used to die due to the pain and complications. This is simply not the case anymore. Also, most women with modern medicine simply do not experience the same pain and complications women of the past had to endure. They simply don’t. It is still painful, just not what it used to be.

    Also, the working conditions with modern equipment has significantly changed the reality for most men (at least in industrialized countries). It just is different. And, women work as hard as men do now to share the burden. Life is simply different.

    thanks for the conversation

  14. In closing, have you ever thought that husbands ruling over wives might actually be evil?

    I think maybe that is why the world is slowly changing. Good does prevail over evil and women are gaining more power to control our own destinies.

    I am saddened that people like you who are so motivated trying to be good cannot see how evil it is to preach this.

    • Wow. So you have decided to sit in judgement on the judgement of God?

      As far as I can tell, what we might call evil, God intends for good.
      Genesis 50:20
      “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

      Personally, I dont think we are in a place where we can decide what God has done is good or evil, since HE is the one who sets the rules. Oh, we can look at it and say it doesnt seem fair or we dont like it, but Go d himself has said who are you to do so?
      Romans 9:19-21
      19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

      It saddens me when I see people put their thoughts above God’s….

  15. No, I do not think God is evil. I think your interpretation of the bible and the actions that follow based on that interpretation can be evil.

    I think God is a loving God that does not intend for husbands to rule over their wives because of the evil it causes around the world.

    • God is all knowing, all powerful, holy, righteous, and just, as well as loving. His very nature demands justice. He decreed a judicial decree that the woman would be ruled by her husband. Of course God knew the consequences.

      IF God did not intend for husbands to rule over their wives, why would He tell them to do exactly that?

      As for the website, I think there are differing degrees of leaderhip and “ruling.” I dont know how much of what he was staying is hyperbole and how much is how he feels.

      But I agree with the idea that divorce should be next to impossible – but I would say for both parties. People should be required to work out problems in a marriage and people who abandon their marriage should not benefit by doing so. Nor should one parent be allowed to take their children to live in homes where drug abuse or extra-marital sex is occuring against the desires of the other parent. I think each spouse should fulfill their duties in a marriage and as a parent. By the same token, wives should not abuse husbands and husbands should not abuse wives.

      I dont think it is evil to expect people to meet their responsibilities.

  16. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/deadbeat_dads.htm

    Here’s an example (the link above) of someones interpretation of the bible that manifests itself into evil misguided behavior.

  17. Well, I strongly believe it is evil to believe that a certain group of people should rule over another group of people regardless of worthiness. It is an ignorant and blind view of reality. God cannot be this unloving.

    He did not instruct husbands to rule over their wives. He said that the tree of knowledge will cause that to happen. Husbands ability to learn will cause this. Not that he wanted it to happen. That is very very different. Thus the interpretation difference. It is obvious. I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you if you are so enlightened and worthy of doing good work.

    • What we BELIEVE about what is good or evil is irrelavant. What matters is what GOD SAID. GOD gets to determine right and wrong, not you. God is VERY loving to discipline disobedience. Those He loves, He diciplines. If he spared Adam and Eve, He would not have loved them, but in fact He would have shown hate.

      Proverbs 3:12

      because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

      Proverbs 13:24

      Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

      Hebrews 12:6

      because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

      Revelation 3:19

      Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

      It is not about worthiness. Its about sin and the just punishment of it. Nothing was said about ability to learn – you are adding that to the text. The decree was about sin and its punishment. This is made even more evident when you look at 1 Timothy 2:11-15. the woman was deceived, so women are not allowed to lead in church, nor in the home.

      Go back and look at the text. God said BECAUSE of what Satan, Eve, and Adam had done, HE will…. Its not a natural consequence of what happened, its a judicial decree. If it were simply a natural consequence of what occurred, it would not have said “I will”.

      Genesis 3:14-19

      14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

      “Cursed are you above all livestock
      and all wild animals!
      You will crawl on your belly
      and you will eat dust
      all the days of your life.
      15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
      and between your offspring and hers;
      he will crush your head,
      and you will strike his heel.”

      16 To the woman he said,

      I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
      with painful labor you will give birth to children.
      Your desire will be for your husband,
      and he will rule over you.”

      17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,

      Cursed is the ground because of you;
      through painful toil you will eat food from it
      all the days of your life.
      18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
      and you will eat the plants of the field.
      19 By the sweat of your brow
      you will
      eat your food
      until you return to the ground,
      since from it you were taken;
      for dust you are
      and to dust you will return.”

      God made a judicial decree that husband would lead his wife. You ignore that because it offends your sensibilities, but those sensibilities are more in line with what Satan would have you believe than what God said.

  18. It is also amazing that you are unable to utilize your ability to think and rationalize. God wants you to think about what love means. Ruling over someone does not constitute love and kindness. Equal loving partnership does.

    You should be wise enough to see this and preach this. I am disappointed in your inability to see this and teach this to others. You could help the world be a better place instead of perpetuating evil.

    I sincerely hope God will enable you to grow and learn to see things in a more healthy and productive way for this world.

    take care… and god bless.

    • I am quite able to reason. What else I am able to do is put God’s word and will ahead of my own – at least much of the time. What I see YOU doing is putting your thoughts and desires above what God has said.
      God has never said ruling is not loving. Nor has God ever said being in an equal relationship is love.

      You are defining what love is. But that ignores what God has already said about love.
      1 John 5:3

      In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

      2 John 1:6

      And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

      1 John 5:2

      This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

      1 John 3:16

      This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

      1 John 2:5

      But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:

      1 Corinthians 13:4-8a

      4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8a Love never fails….

      And man is to be as described in Titus 1:7-9

      7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

      GOD decides who is in authority and when.
      Colossians 1:16

      For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

      Romans 13:1

      Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

      Love is about sacrifice. Leadership is about servanthood. We are to be servants of God where ever we find ourselves, and our first ministry is to our family. But that does not remove the command to husbands to lead their families, nor for wives to submit to their own husbands.

      God’s word says it is evil and unloving to disobey God. I pray God will open your eyes to the scriptures so you will come to love Him and obey Him.

      God bless you too.

  19. Mr Moore, I see your claim that man leads in marriage is centred on Genesis 3 where God is telling Adam and Eve what the consequences of their sin are. So He is describing the curse on the marital relationship, right? So…did Christ die and rise again for man’s redemption from the curse.,.or not? Which means the curse on the marital relationship is lifted…right?
    Men and women are to lead together in marriage and family. Both’s leadership are needed because both carry God’s image. God never gave a man authority over his family. It is in the sinful nature of a man to desire power over a woman and it is in a woman’s sinful nature to want a man to rule over here. This was not the original divine intent. These sinful desires within man and woman cause us to misinterpret the logos to satisfy our flesh and tarnish the image of the Tri-une God even further.The original injunction was for both Adam and Eve to take dominion over the earth, and to complement each other. Not for one to rule over the other.

    • Actually, the curse was not upon the marital relationship so much as upon the people involved in sinning – the wife led the husband into sinning and he followed when he should have led her to not sin.

      I find it curious that you claim it is sinful nature that causes men to want to lead and women to want to follow. I read scripture telling us that woman was created for man. I read scripture as telling us that men and women have roles in marriage where the man is to be the head of the household. I think it is sinful to seek to take authority in the home from the husband.

      I do not know many women who want a man to rule over them. I find that most women who are not walking with God want to rule over men. I find most men who are not walking with God want to abdicate their responsibilities in the home to the wife. And in turn, wives often will step up to the vacuum in authority and responsibility created by the man’s abdication.

      Christ died for our sins. But this does not remove the curse nor the physical ramifications of it in this lifetime. Christ’s death and resurrection allows us to be born again and live spiritually and enter into God’s presence. But there are still consequences to sin. Has God said the woman is lead the husband? No. Paul was quite clear that the wife is not to have authority over the husband because Eve was deceived. To say that God’s intent was not to have man lead over his wife is to ignore scripture.

      Where in scripture do you see that Adam is to complement Eve? I see Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Yes, humanity was given dominion over the earth, but this does not mean they are not to have differing roles in that task.

      If you think a woman is not be led by her husband, then you have been having your ears tickled.

  20. wbmoore is absolutely correct. The reason there are so many problems between men and women (and divorces) is because they do not follow God’s commands. I have experienced this in my own marriage. Once I learned thru the word of God, what God expected from me and I became obedient to God and submitted to my husband the way God lovingly comands us to. My relationship and marriage has improved and is so much better and because of my obedience to God, it has helped my husband be the husband God desires him to be. I believe if we obey God by his word, God will work everything out for the good. Its trusting Him and believing what he commands is truth. He tells us our ways are not His ways and our understanding is not His understanding. I believe it is a dangerous territory to question God and feel that our way is better because it makes more sense to us. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change just because our culture changes.

  21. I don’t believe in the bible, or the master/slave type marriage it endorses. Wives are compared to slaves. Do wives really need a “head” or master to dominate and enslave them? Do wives really want to give away all their freedom? Are they even considered free people?

    • I dont think there is an idea of master-slave. The idea is one of hierarchy – God is head of Christ, Christ is head of the church, Man is head of the wife.

      I have more posts dealing with marriage: http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/index-by-topic/marriage-and-relationships/

      • So, do you think women are the bottom of the barrell? Is the hierarchy a matter of whose best, or whose more important? Isn’t it kind of proof that the god of the bible absolutely hates women? If not, why would bible god make them the bottom of the barrell?

        • Gabrielle,

          No, this has nothing what so ever to do with being lesser or greater than anyone. To be explicit, neither men nor women are bottom of the barrel, as you put it.

          God loves the world so much He sent His Son to suffer and die for their sins, so that everyone who accepts what He has done will have eternal life.

          • What I get from the bible is that Jesus die foe men only. Since men are the.only people god.actually likes. To put a group of people in constant form of.slavery is not love. Its hatred pure and simple. The fact that bible god created this hierarchy and put women on the bottom of it, is proof to me. Bible for. hates me, and all women. Bible god loves you, so you have no np idea what it is like to be hated so much from your pwn “parent”. If one of your parents said to you ” you are lower in this families hierarchy because your dad was tempted by sin, so ion this family, through all generation, men are lower than low. That they will always be.lower than low. That you will never ever have a.chance of becoming any higher. You will be a slave to someone who may not be.better than you, nit since you are so low, it does not even matter. You are to obey every command of your spouse, even if they command you to do something stupid. Oh yea, and you are still responsible foe your actions even if you have no control over them. Do what your told, ams if what you are told to do is wrong, you will go.to hell. Nice God, your bible god huh. !! @

            low, how.would you feel.also, you are then told that you are not only

          • PS I do believe in God, just not the god.of the bible. That god surely hates me and all women. I also didn’t go on a shooting spree at the.mall to kill everyone who works on Sunday. I believe in a God who wants.equality.for.all people. The.bible god and organized religion has hurt me immensely. By looking.at the.bible, I actallu.thought god hated me. While those thoughts are difficult.to get rid of, I am still.trying. rejecting the.source (bible) is not as hard as rejecting.the message ( you are lower than low) thanks

            • Gabrielle,

              It sounds as people who claim to be Christian have hurt you very much. I’m so sorry. Please realize that God has said in the BIble that in the last days, people will be lovers of self and money and will have a “form of godliness” but will deny its power. They will “look” like a Christian but will not be Christian. It sounds as if you have met people such as this.

              2 Timothy 3:1-9

              But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

              I would submit that the people who hurt you might have not taught you correctly about what the Bible says, or about who the God is. God created you. God IS love. God wants the best for us, yet gives us the ability to make our choices. That in turn sometimes causes us to be hurt or to hurt others. But this does not mean God does not love you.

              I will try to explain about marriage from a slightly different perspective.
              I am a father. In this role, I started out with very little responsibility: I was there when my children were born and I helped change diapers, and occasionally bottle fed the babies. As they matured, what I did changed, but I was still the father: I would read to them, I would play with them, I would help them pick out clothes and I would dress them, I would answer a ton of questions, I cooked sometimes. As the children aged more, what I did changed even more. I spent more time with the children, I guided them, I disciplined them, I played with them. As they aged still further, I had to step back and let them make their mistakes while trying to keep them safe. As they aged still further, I have to wait until advice is asked for, and I become an observer. Yet at all times, I am the father – I do not get a promotion, nor do I ever get to take a vacation or not be a father. Even if I become a grandfather, I will always be a father.

              This is the way it is with me being a man, and you being a woman. This is the way marriage is also.

              God does not want you to reject Him, but if you reject His Son, then you reject Him. Jesus said, in Luke 10:16, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

              There is ONLY one God. He has expectations of people. If they choose to follow their own path, or a different “god”, there will be consequences for those people. But He works to ensure we trust Him. He provides opportunities for us to accept Him and what He has done for us. He doesnt want you to believe you are lower than low – HE wants you to believe you are important enough that he gives you breath every day.

              Acts 17:25

              25 nor is He served by human hands, (A)as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

              Matthew 6:26

              Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?

              We see in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated His love for us by having Christ die for us.

              But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

              God said in Deuteronomy 23:5 to those He had chosen (men and women):

              Nevertheless, the LORD your God was not willing to listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the LORD your God loves you.

              God said, in Jude 1:20-21, in speaking to people who love God, to keep yourself in the love of God – how could God not love you if you are to keep yourself in the love of God?

              20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life

              You matter to God. Not as a slave, but as a child.

      • So, do you think women are the bottom of the barrell? Is the hierarchy a matter of whose best, or whose more important? Or whose just the lowest? Isn’t it kind of proof that the god of the bible absolutely hates women? If not, why would bible god make them the bottom of the barrell? Why would bible god even make such deficient creatures? do you think the reason god gave women no rights is that god hates them? Or that god just loves men more? What do you think-do you think bible god abhors women? Why else would god put them at the absolute bottom of the totem pole? Want them to be slaves (you say it’s not a master-slave relationship, but I can’t interpret the words as anything but) for life? Do you think that maybe god tried to compensate by letting women live longer, so that they could be free people for a couple of years? This is not really compensation since most of the widows I know miss their husbands (of course all of the widows I know had equal marriages-not hierarchal). In a hierarchal marriage, it may be different. Even in a hierarchal marriage , there must be some sort of affection. I can’t imagine loving someone that wants to be my “head” r, but everyone is different. If you were told by god that you were at the bottom of the barrell, would you feel that god still loved you? How would you feel if you were told you were at the absolute bottom of the totem pole. The lowest of the low. do you think being so low is a compliment from god? I would appreciate any comments you would care to make. Thank you.

        • Gabrielle,

          You are asking a lot of loaded questions and using language which seems to indicate you dont really want answers, but justification for a fight.

          Even so, I’ll try to answer your questions.

          As I said, this has nothing to do with better or worse, lesser or greater. No one is the bottom of the barrel.

          In any organization, a hierarchy has nothing to do with who is more important or more knowledgeable or more skilled or more intelligent. It has to do with responsibility. God has decreed that man is responsible for guiding his family to become more holy and blameless.

          We are ALL sinners – men and women. And yet, God loves the world so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die to pay the penalty of our sins – all we have to do is accept what God has done.

          God made people who had a choice to trust and obey Him, or not. Eve was deceived and Adam failed to lead and protect Eve from Satan. Both Adam and Eve failed. Both sinned. Yet, it is through Adam that sin entered the world. This means God holds Adam responsible for Eve having sinned. Adam was created first, and so was given the responsibility of leadership.

          God made us all sinners, but has provided a way for us to rise above that, because He loves.

          You are choosing to interpret the words as a master-slave relationship. For me, its easy to see the hierarchy. A husband leads his wife and children by serving them, a mother leads her children and helps her husband by serving the children and submitting to the husband (as an executive officer submits to the commanding officer). In the Christian world-view, a leader is someone who humbles himself and serves those he or she leads.

          Maybe your experience is different, but I have never seen a marriage where one person did not make the final decision when both parties disagreed. One or the other will make the decisions, even if both talk it over (as in the case in my marriage). For some, they agree to divide up the various areas of responsibility (bills, children, cooking, cleaning, etc.), while for others, they agree to discuss everything. But eventually, a point comes where they do not agree and one or the other will submit to the will or desire of the other.

  22. Why would a wonderful god subject half of the creation to slavery? does bible god not love women? Do you think bible god hates females?Why would God create a creature who, even in adulthood, needs a head or master? Do you think all men are wonderful, unselfish people that deserve a slave to contribute to the household? I just can’t understand a god that would be so mean to half of god’s population. Children grow up, slaves may become free, why are wives the only creatures that must live a continuous life of slavery? why would god appoint one group of people to be so superior to another group of people? Is this the god you worship? A god who says I’m on top, then men, and the lowest of the low are women. I don’t want to be anyone’s slave, nor do I want a slave. If we are to treat people the way we wished to be treated, why do we need master/slave relationships? Any comments would be appreciated.

    • Having a hierarchy is not slavery. The military has a hierarchy. The job place has a hierarchy. Any organization has a hierarchy.

      Men being leaders of their family has nothing to do with whether men are competent, or women are not, nor with whether women know less than men or men more than women. Men were put in the position of leaders in the home for a reason:
      1 Timothy 2:12-14

      12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

      Man was created first. Eve was the one Satan deceived, yet the Bible tells us that sin entered mankind through Adam. Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” This is because Adam represented humanity and creation. A fuller description is found here: http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-does-it-mean-when-bible-says-man-head-woman

  23. So, men are the masters of women because a women was tempted by the “devil”. Man was tempted by the women. So, all women are bad, all men good, and deserve to be the masters. In a business organization, the “boss” is determined by individual skills. the miliary also. People are promoted on the basis of skill (normally), not reproductive organs. A private has the ability to pursue a better rank, an employee is able to move up. The wife can never move up to a better “rank”. Also, if an employee is unhappy with a company s/he works for, s/he can try to find another job? I feel like a slave to my employer, but when I get home, I am finally free. This would not be the case in a head/submissive home.

    • In any organization, the leader is determined by different criteria. For some, its how long someone has been in their job and they are the next one in line when the leader leaves. For others, its who can schmooze the best. For others, it is who can do their job the best, or who has the most knowledge or who has the best leadership ability, or who has the best management ability (leadership and management are not the same). Every organization has different criteria for determining who should be in leadership.

      But according to the Bible, God chose man because man was created first and Eve was deceived. There is no moving up or down. There is no promotion. Its a one term job – life.

      Each person has responsibilities in the home. For some families, the woman does a better job at some things and she does those. For other families, the husband might be better at certain tasks. Who does what has no bearing on who is ultimately responsible to God for the family.

  24. I’m m not trying to argue.with anybody. How.anyone else leads their.life.is up to them. I’m just trying to understand why the God.of the Bible hates me so much. I get no love. Only hate from the.bible. to bible god.I am nothing more.than an afterthought, thy oz never able to better myself. Gods despised invention. Do you have.daughters? How do you tell them about gods dislike of them because.of someone who lived thousands of years ago? Do they have any kind of self esteem? Do they believe.they are less than their brothers? That at some point in their adult life, they will need a head.to.order.them around? That they are incapable of making their own decisions? That npatter how good PR.smart they are, they are.still the.lowest on God’s hierarchy? That.they will never be.able to move up gods.hierarchy? By the.way, thanks for answering my posts (even though I am way below.you on the hierarchy, and this lower than you) ..o really want to get over.this self hatred.that the Bible has inflicted on me.

    • I have a foster daughter and a biological daughter. I have taught them the same thing I told you – God loves the world. He loves those who choose to trust and obey. We are all equal in importance and quality and love, we just have different roles.

      I dont think the Bible has inflicted self-hate. You heard a message that is not from God. I think people in your life have done a number on you with it. We are not cause others to stumble and are to try to make it right when we do. I think those people in your life at that time hurt you. And its a shame.

  25. I have never gotten married. When o was 17 yrs.old I hears those verses read. O decided then and there that o would never get married. On fact, I started. To hate men, thinking all they wanted.to do is.become my.”head or master. Whenever. I started to like someone, o would read.those.verses from the.Bible, and run the.other way. I had parents at the time, o did.not.need.another one ordering.me around. My life.was.kind.of.ruined.that day on church. It’s.been many years and obviously o.have not.gotten over it. I have rejected.organized religion, and.the.bible, nut the.pain of.ever thinking you were so.inadequate on God’s.eyes.really shirts. As I said.before reject the source, but.the.message.is.haedwe to get rid of. Its.easier to talk to.someone.over.the internet than in.person…thanks. for.listening.!

    • I understand how its easier to talk to someone over the internet.

      I’m sorry you have misunderstood what God has said concerning marriage. Marriage is not about being bossy or a dictator or master or slave or being abused. Marriage is a man and wife loving God and each other and working together toward a common goal.

    • Hello Gabrielle,
      Am writing this from India where the Husband /wife relationship is at the worst. Its a Hindu nation and only less than 10% know about Jesus and Bible but there too a wife cant even say the name of their husbands. Husbands abuse their wife. It is not a GOD of bible as you call that leads us to this situation. I love my wife and have never considered her as my slave. As bible says we are one in flesh ie one body. Then where is the question of master /slave arise.

  26. Gabrielle, The Bible never says that women are unintelligent, gullible, deceptive, difficult, emotional, sexually wanton, temptresses, evil, or inferior to men. Truly! In fact it says a lot of good things about women.

    God loves his daughters as well as his sons. They are precious and valuable to Him.

    The people who say oppressive things about women are misinterpreting scripture. I wonder what verses have caused you to think that God hates you. I’m sure that there is a misunderstanding.

    I am a woman and I know that God loves me dearly.

  27. I am very impressed by your responses to various people who disagree with you. It is sad that the roles of man and woman in a marriage is off that we see all this chaos and confusion. Also people need to read where Jesus speaks on being unequally yoked. A lot of people who have bad experiences in dating were dating or marrying people they should not have been with. Obeying God makes more sense than what you think makes sense to you because God is Alpha and Omega and as smart as anyone is, they are barely living in the present. We are all unqualified to begin to question God’s wisdom but God being wise allows us to be foolish so that we can better understand him.

    If following the sense of mankind was a better option than more marriage would be successful now.

    Also to the person earlier who said now we are living longer than people back in Adam and Eve’s time. I think you may want to research that a big more. Some of those people were living for hundreds or years. I am glad that God knew it wise to shorten our days as sin became worse because I would think our world would be hell if some of the old people in power now lived that much longer.

    • Earl, thanks for the kind words.

      About being unequally yoked, you are correct. I think a man and a woman must be very careful about who they choose to fall in love with and marry. In fact, I think this is a big part of why so many people divorce – they did not check out the prospective spouse before they allowed feelings to enter into things, and once they saw something or were told something that should have been a big red flag, they were too deeply emotionally entranced to be able to recognize the truth or to do anything about it.

      I think people have a difficult time obeying God because they have a small view of God, and are sinful creatures who want their own desires. We all are like that. The question is are we wiling to submit to GOd or to the world’s thoughts about right and wrong.

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