Some believe men should lead in marriage and women should be subject to their husbands. Others believe that scripture does not state women should be subject to men. The argument goes like this:
How much Bible evidence can you give for husbands’ authority over wifes, or ruler of homes? To recap, verses telling slaves to obey DO NOT teach that God’s design is for masters to have authority as slave owners, and verses telling women to submit should be read in a similar fashion. If you want to develop a Bible doctrine of male authority being God’s plan from the “women submit” verses, it would be as much a fallacy, as to develop a doctrine of slave owner authority being God’s plan from the teachings to slaves.
I agree that scripture concerning being a good master does not say there should be masters and slaves, but merely regulates that relationship.
However, this same thing can not be said for whether there should be husband and wife. Scripture is clear that woman was made for man.
Genesis 2:
18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Further, Scripture tells us that the woman is to be ruled by her husband, because Eve was deceived.
Genesis 3:16
16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
We see this expanded to the idea that a woman should not have authority over men because Eve was deceived - apparently Paul was speaking of authority in spiritual matters, and possibly limited to doctrine or the church environment, depending on one’s understanding of the context.
1 Timothy 2:12-14
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Further still, scripture tells us the wife should submit to her husband.
Ephesians 5:22
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Now, I suppose one could still argue that women should not be subject to men, but this would only be true if the church is not subject to Christ. But scripture tell us that the church IS subject to Christ and in the same way, a wife should be subject to her husband.
Ephesians 5:23-25
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
To summarize, a man is subject to Christ. A wife is subject to her husband. The church together are subject to Christ. So while some might want to claim that men and women are to fulfill similar roles in the home, the Bible is clear that men are to lead and women are subject to their own husbands.
Like this:
Filed under: Bible, God, Leadership, Marriage
Wbmoore, this is not an argument (yet) but an opportunity for you to explain your view better. You heading has “men should lead and women should follow.” That goes a lot further than “”husbands should lead and wifes should follow.”
Here are a few very diverse examples of cases, and you should tell me if men’s lead over women should apply here: (In none of these cases are the two husband and wife.)
> A qualified female paramedic, and a man who only took a first aid course, is on an accident scene.
> A man tries to rape a women.
> A man tries to seduce a women.
> A woman is in the shop and loads brand X margarine into her trolley. A man tells her to rather buy brand Y.
> A woman and man do the same job for the same company. They have equal experience and are on the same level in company hierarchy. The man say they should rather follow a different procedure.
> A female business owner interviews potential employees. Should she only hire women, as she should not lead males?
> Two members of a church go in seperate cars to attend the same conference. She knows the way. He does not.
> The male unbelieving pastor in a Chinese church (the goverment appoint leaders in the Three Self Church there) tells two women to stop photocopying Bible portions and gospel tracts for other Christians.
> Suppose a blog argument take place about Bible understanding. Suppose the woman’s view is more scripturally supported than those of the man she argues with. Should he learn something, or should only the female
Where does the men lead and women follow apply, outside of marriage? Who’se lead should a 21-year old single girl who’se dad passed away/ a 35-year-old divorced mother (let’s assume she was divorced for Biblically acceptable reasons) / a 47-year old spinster/ a 64-year old widow follow?
Hi Retha.
Are you sure this is not an argument? It certainly appears as if you are looking for a fight.
It is clear from the opening line of my post that I am speaking of marriage. I think the Bible is clear that men should lead in marriage and in the church. A woman should submit to her own husband (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 3:1), and ask questions of him at home rather than in church (1 Corinthians 14:35). She should submit to him even if he is not a Christian (1 Peter 3:1). The only exception would be that she should not follow him in sin (Deuteronomy 13:6-8; Proverbs 1:10; Acts 5:1-10).
Thanks for clearing that up. And argument was not used in the sense of fighting, but of stating a case.
You people repeatedly speak how women are to submit, yet hardly mention the husbands responsibility which is usually given in more words than the wifes.
I think the limits of submission stop somewhat earlier than following in sin. For example: A father insult his daughter (undeservedly) regularly in such a harsh way that it has a long term effect on how she sees herself and how she relates to men. The wife submit to her husband by not saying to the girl, either before the father or behind his back, that these comments are not true. The wife do not follow in sin- she never insulted the daughter. But she neglected her duty to love her child and manage her household, if she does not, a) tell him that he scars the girl by his words and b) tell the daughter that this is not true and she should not see herself that way.
Retha,
Can you show me in scripture where the limits in submission are?
I think we are supposed to submit to those above us in authority because of God, not because of those we submit to. The only limit I can see is that we are not to sin. Of course, all God’s commands must be done simultaneously where possible. This means love and kindness and mercy and forgiveness and respect must be practiced while submitting to those in authority – and while leading.
I have done some posts on the roles/behaviors of husbands as well as wives. But people dont tend to argue when you tell them to love, to be respectful, to encourage. I can even tell people to submit to their bosses or to the law and I rarely get argument. However, tell women of today to submit, and its common to have women come tell me all about how unfair it is, or how there are limits (or should be limits), how men dont deserve it, etc.
It is not about what feels good or fair or convenient, nor it is about the man (regardless of whether he is nice or a tyrant). It is about God.
God said to love and obey HIM – do you only do that when it appears easy? Do you only obey God when its convenient? Do you only obey God when it appears to be worth it? Do you only obey God when it is “fair?”
As for your scenario of the wife not mitigating the misbehavior of the man mentioned above, If she did not show love then she sinned.
I like your answer. Do not assume I have problems with submission. (This weekend on my blog, I will answer how it is possible to believe in submission, and still Biblically disbelieve the men-should-lead thesis.)
Between us we made clear the important point that sin could also be through inaction when we should act, and there we agree. Sin is certainly the limit to submission, but sin should not be defined too narrowly.
Your earlier comments led one to believe you are against submission of a wife to her husband, or a church member to his/her church leaders.
Sin is not narrowly defined by God. He has provided certain explicit examples, but it is anything not done in faith. This leads to a lot of things being considered sin, even if we might think them to be good things.
I am curious to see how you justify the idea of men not having to be the leaders in the marriage or in church.
WBMOORE, I am going to answer why so many people (both men and women) just cannot accept your argument that husbands should lead at all times. It is pretty simply… First, it makes very little sense for a wife to submit to her husband in ALL cases. There are so many exceptions where it just does not make sense to follow. For example, if a wife is a medical doctor and the husband is a economics professor. Any reasonably bright man would follow his wifes lead on all health related issues regarding the family. This is one example where a husband should follow his wife.
There are countless other examples where a man should follow his wifes lead. Most intelligent couples know this and form a working partnership based on the strengths of each person.
Basic common sense says your argument just does not work. Normal intelligent people see the flaws and adjust their lives accordingly (i.e. form a partnership with their spouse). The scripture just cannot be that out of whack with reality leading to the fact that different interpretations must exist that make more sense.
I think you confuse wisdom and leadership with knowledge and skill. If we were discussing ability or knowledge, you might have a point – but not really. One can be quite able in certain areas without being able in other areas. Plenty of managers and CEOs have no idea how to most of the jobs that are required to be done in their company or management area. Yet, that has no bearing on who is leading. Leadership is a separate issue from the skills and knowledge necessary to do certain functions.
Leaders take advantage of (utilize) people and their knowledge and skills to accomplish a goal. This is what a husband is to do – lead his family to raise and train the children to know, love, and trust God and advance the family.
But actually, that is not addressing the point of this post. The point of THIS post is what does GOD say about who is to lead in marriage?
God said that a husband is to lead his wife.
Some wives have more wisdom and ability to lead as well. That’s the crux of the issue and how to deal with reality as it relates to different interpretations of the bible. It is very difficult to ignore the elephant in the room which is reality – some wives simply are stronger leaders.
I wouldn’t disagree with the idea that some people, regardless of gender are better at certain things than others, including leading.
But Eve allowed herself to be deceived and Adam allowed himself to take the easy way out and for that reason God made a judicial decree of cursing against both man and wife.
So, do you go with what you think is best or what the Bible clearly specifies? Your choice, obey or find a way to excuse what you want.
I said judicial decree because Genesis 3:11-19 is a judicial decree that was passed in judgement of Satan and Eve and Adam.
Because of what the various parties did, God decreed certain things would occur.
The serpent is cursed; it will go about on its belly; there will be enmity between it and the woman and the offspring of both (indeed, this is thought to be a prophecy of Christ coming to conquer Satan).
God will increase Eve’s pain in childbirth, yet she will desire her husband and he will rule over her.
The ground is cursed because of Adam and he must toil all the days of his life to eat of it. Man will eat vegetables of the field. The ground will grow thorns and thistles. Man will sweat to eat bread.
Now in reference to has the better ability to lead, there are plenty of examples of inept leadership in the world, so saying the better qualified is the one who would be leader doesnt even work in the world.
God did not say man would be better qualified or even a better leader, but that the man would be the leader because of what Eve had done (or allowed to be done to her, or was done to her, depending on how you read it).
God also gave us the ability to reason and to think on our own to make this world a better place.
I am not content with allowing my reasoning and basic common sense to be suppressed. God wants us to think and to act in smart ways that are better for the world. This is one way we can be more enlightend.
I also want to say that this does not mean many husbands are not great leaders and worthy of that post. Just that not all are and that it does not make sense.
Having a great loving mutually respectful relationship that allows for great community involvement, ability to raise well adjusted and beautiful children sometimes happens with leadership from the wife. It just does.. it is reality.
You can claim it is not and the male is the leader, but sometimes it just is not so. Even when all the love and goodness that is meant by God exists in the family.
This is the elephant in the room.
Thank you for having this conversation. I appreciate your openness on the subject. I also think your efforts and contributions to others is very profound and good.
I am not saying to suppress your reasoning. I agree we should work smart and be good stewards of what God has given us. But we have to be careful to not disobey God. When our reasoning goes beyond what God has said, when it ignores or contradicts what God has said, then we put ourselves and others in danger.
Often what sounds good is not what God would have us do.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
18 Let no man deceive himself If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; 20 and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.”
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Above all, we need to trust God, to obey God. Christ is source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him – not for those those who ignore scripture and decide they know better than God.
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
I agree that sometimes the woman is the better leader. That has NEVER been my contention. If I have given that impression, please forgive me as I never intended to state that.
There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt that some men are idiots. :) Others are jerks. :) Others are simply incapable of making good decisions and the best decision the man makes (in terms of earthly living) is to let his wife make most of the decisions.
BUT, and this is a big but, IS that what GOD said to do?
For me, it all boils down to what does God say.
Thank you for your kind words. I try to allow myself to be used by God to teach His word in all areas of life. I’m sure I make mistakes. But one has to show me in scripture and not argue from the world to make me see it. I can agree with you about how things appear based upon our personal experiences, but if the scripture says something different, then I have to realize my perception of reality may be tainted by the sin in the world, or that I may not understand WHY God has said something and I need to study further.
For me, its all about what has God said….
The question is whether we are understanding the interpretation. Is there a more wise way to interprete the bible to help the world be a better place.
I had a Catholic priest once tell me that the written word in the bible is very difficult to interprete. That is why jesus lead by example and did not write anything down himself. He believed that he needed to lead by example and that written word would lead people astray. Gandhi believed this too. That is the hard part about understanding the written word. That is why common sense and individual thinking is so important.
Personally, I think MOST of the written word of God is easy to understand, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It becomes harder when we allow our sin nature to not allow us to hear or accept what God says. And ALL of us do that.
Let us go about this differently, how do you understand Genesis 3:11-17?
Well, I think it is deep and symbolic. Eve ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge. God warned her because once you eat from the tree of knowledge you are no longer innocent. You grow and learn.
Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, he would grow and learn as well. The curse of knowledge also brings the curse of evil. Evil is what causes man to exercise his dominence over women. The dominence did not exist until evil from eating from the tree of knowledge existed.
A blissful existence is where Adam and Eve are partners in paradise. The more we are equal/partners the closer we are to god and to the original culture of Eden.
The Tree of Knowledge is both a curse and a blessing. God doesn’t believe that Adam should rule, he knows that the tree of Knowledge will cause Adam to learn how to use his strength to dominate Eve even though it is not what God wants for Adam and Eve (or Men and Woman).
That’s a beautiful image. I would caution that we do not know what form of government God intended. There is little in scripture about how much time passed from when God had created Adam to when he created Eve – other than it was done on the sixth day. There is also little said about the relationship between Adam and Eve other than she was made for Him. We are only told that God decreed that Eve would be ruled by Adam AFTER the sin, we know nothing of what happened before.
But let me ask, what were the results of the sins of Adam and Eve?
The story is quite symbolic and difficult to fully understand because of some of the inconsistencies with our modern time. We can still learn from it, but I think we need to be careful to take it too literally.
I believe it was meant for a people who could not read or write. They needed guidance to help under stand the world around them. Medicine at the time was very limited. Life was simply very very different. Fortunately, most people can now read and write. We also live a lot longer. We have a lot more resources and we are able to live differently now. The same core principles/messages will always be relevant, but much has changed in our daily experiences.
Women do not have to endure a lot of physical pain anymore during child birth (modern medicine has changed that). Men do not have to take on the entire burden of providing for the family (women now help with that). Men also do not have labor intensive jobs in farming like they used to. Modern equipment has changed that entirely. Many of the punishments for eating the fruit no longer exists. Life has changed a lot for many people. How do you explain that?
I see it as literal with some symbolism. But it is a historical account of what God has done and what Adam and Eve did.
You might think women do not have to endure pain in childbirth, and perhaps in your case it was. But I was present for the births of all my children, and I was there afterwards. Its painful, even with medication and even with an epidural, and its painful afterwards. I’ve known women for whom childbirth was relatively easy, but they still claimed it was painful both during or afterwards or both – with and without medicine and epidurals. Painful child birth is something that is a reality.
Men are still laboring to get food – many of whom are farming or ranching, others in less dirty jobs but stressful, or difficult, or dangerous, none-the-less. The punishment will never be abated, regardless of what utopia people might want to create, until Christ returns.
Okay. Obviously if you take the bible literally then we will not be on the same page. I have a hard time with the inconsistencies and the problems that things do not match reality.
I have had two children. With proper medications child birth is not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. 1 in 4 women used to die due to the pain and complications. This is simply not the case anymore. Also, most women with modern medicine simply do not experience the same pain and complications women of the past had to endure. They simply don’t. It is still painful, just not what it used to be.
Also, the working conditions with modern equipment has significantly changed the reality for most men (at least in industrialized countries). It just is different. And, women work as hard as men do now to share the burden. Life is simply different.
thanks for the conversation
In closing, have you ever thought that husbands ruling over wives might actually be evil?
I think maybe that is why the world is slowly changing. Good does prevail over evil and women are gaining more power to control our own destinies.
I am saddened that people like you who are so motivated trying to be good cannot see how evil it is to preach this.
Wow. So you have decided to sit in judgement on the judgement of God?
As far as I can tell, what we might call evil, God intends for good.
Genesis 50:20
“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Personally, I dont think we are in a place where we can decide what God has done is good or evil, since HE is the one who sets the rules. Oh, we can look at it and say it doesnt seem fair or we dont like it, but Go d himself has said who are you to do so?
Romans 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
It saddens me when I see people put their thoughts above God’s….
No, I do not think God is evil. I think your interpretation of the bible and the actions that follow based on that interpretation can be evil.
I think God is a loving God that does not intend for husbands to rule over their wives because of the evil it causes around the world.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/deadbeat_dads.htm
Here’s an example (the link above) of someones interpretation of the bible that manifests itself into evil misguided behavior.
God is all knowing, all powerful, holy, righteous, and just, as well as loving. His very nature demands justice. He decreed a judicial decree that the woman would be ruled by her husband. Of course God knew the consequences.
IF God did not intend for husbands to rule over their wives, why would He tell them to do exactly that?
As for the website, I think there are differing degrees of leaderhip and “ruling.” I dont know how much of what he was staying is hyperbole and how much is how he feels.
But I agree with the idea that divorce should be next to impossible – but I would say for both parties. People should be required to work out problems in a marriage and people who abandon their marriage should not benefit by doing so. Nor should one parent be allowed to take their children to live in homes where drug abuse or extra-marital sex is occuring against the desires of the other parent. I think each spouse should fulfill their duties in a marriage and as a parent. By the same token, wives should not abuse husbands and husbands should not abuse wives.
I dont think it is evil to expect people to meet their responsibilities.
Well, I strongly believe it is evil to believe that a certain group of people should rule over another group of people regardless of worthiness. It is an ignorant and blind view of reality. God cannot be this unloving.
He did not instruct husbands to rule over their wives. He said that the tree of knowledge will cause that to happen. Husbands ability to learn will cause this. Not that he wanted it to happen. That is very very different. Thus the interpretation difference. It is obvious. I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you if you are so enlightened and worthy of doing good work.
It is also amazing that you are unable to utilize your ability to think and rationalize. God wants you to think about what love means. Ruling over someone does not constitute love and kindness. Equal loving partnership does.
You should be wise enough to see this and preach this. I am disappointed in your inability to see this and teach this to others. You could help the world be a better place instead of perpetuating evil.
I sincerely hope God will enable you to grow and learn to see things in a more healthy and productive way for this world.
take care… and god bless.
What we BELIEVE about what is good or evil is irrelavant. What matters is what GOD SAID. GOD gets to determine right and wrong, not you. God is VERY loving to discipline disobedience. Those He loves, He diciplines. If he spared Adam and Eve, He would not have loved them, but in fact He would have shown hate.
Proverbs 3:12
Proverbs 13:24
Hebrews 12:6
Revelation 3:19
It is not about worthiness. Its about sin and the just punishment of it. Nothing was said about ability to learn – you are adding that to the text. The decree was about sin and its punishment. This is made even more evident when you look at 1 Timothy 2:11-15. the woman was deceived, so women are not allowed to lead in church, nor in the home.
Go back and look at the text. God said BECAUSE of what Satan, Eve, and Adam had done, HE will…. Its not a natural consequence of what happened, its a judicial decree. If it were simply a natural consequence of what occurred, it would not have said “I will”.
Genesis 3:14-19
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
God made a judicial decree that husband would lead his wife. You ignore that because it offends your sensibilities, but those sensibilities are more in line with what Satan would have you believe than what God said.
I am quite able to reason. What else I am able to do is put God’s word and will ahead of my own – at least much of the time. What I see YOU doing is putting your thoughts and desires above what God has said.
God has never said ruling is not loving. Nor has God ever said being in an equal relationship is love.
You are defining what love is. But that ignores what God has already said about love.
1 John 5:3
2 John 1:6
1 John 5:2
1 John 3:16
1 John 2:5
1 Corinthians 13:4-8a
And man is to be as described in Titus 1:7-9
Mr Moore, I see your claim that man leads in marriage is centred on Genesis 3 where God is telling Adam and Eve what the consequences of their sin are. So He is describing the curse on the marital relationship, right? So…did Christ die and rise again for man’s redemption from the curse.,.or not? Which means the curse on the marital relationship is lifted…right?
Men and women are to lead together in marriage and family. Both’s leadership are needed because both carry God’s image. God never gave a man authority over his family. It is in the sinful nature of a man to desire power over a woman and it is in a woman’s sinful nature to want a man to rule over here. This was not the original divine intent. These sinful desires within man and woman cause us to misinterpret the logos to satisfy our flesh and tarnish the image of the Tri-une God even further.The original injunction was for both Adam and Eve to take dominion over the earth, and to complement each other. Not for one to rule over the other.
Actually, the curse was not upon the marital relationship so much as upon the people involved in sinning – the wife led the husband into sinning and he followed when he should have led her to not sin.
I find it curious that you claim it is sinful nature that causes men to want to lead and women to want to follow. I read scripture telling us that woman was created for man. I read scripture as telling us that men and women have roles in marriage where the man is to be the head of the household. I think it is sinful to seek to take authority in the home from the husband.
I do not know many women who want a man to rule over them. I find that most women who are not walking with God want to rule over men. I find most men who are not walking with God want to abdicate their responsibilities in the home to the wife. And in turn, wives often will step up to the vacuum in authority and responsibility created by the man’s abdication.
Christ died for our sins. But this does not remove the curse nor the physical ramifications of it in this lifetime. Christ’s death and resurrection allows us to be born again and live spiritually and enter into God’s presence. But there are still consequences to sin. Has God said the woman is lead the husband? No. Paul was quite clear that the wife is not to have authority over the husband because Eve was deceived. To say that God’s intent was not to have man lead over his wife is to ignore scripture.
Where in scripture do you see that Adam is to complement Eve? I see Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Yes, humanity was given dominion over the earth, but this does not mean they are not to have differing roles in that task.
If you think a woman is not be led by her husband, then you have been having your ears tickled.