Its NATURAL in the Animial Kingdom, so its ok for us….

People want to say that people who are attracted to poeple of the same gender were born that way. There’s no concrete evidence one way or the other, regardless of what people on both sides of the issue want to say.

But lets pretend for the moment that they are right. This is supposed to be justification for homosexual sex. They say that animals of the same gender hook up, so its natural and good. But when asked if they then support incestuous relationships, they say no. And try to justify it.

“I believe that gay people are biologically programmed that way; just look at the animal kingdom. However, incest is NOT that way; even in the animal kingdom, there is pretty much an avoidance of close-kin mating.”

THIS person apparently never raised dogs. I have, different kinds, for years. You HAVE to keep the females separate from their brothers, or you will have inbreeding occur. Actually, the dad’s will breed with the daughter dogs too. Dogs don’t care about whether the other dog is related. They just want to satisfy their lust.

I’ve even seen dogs kill their own young. I suppose its justification for infanticide.

Incest, infanticide, homosexual sex – dogs do these thing. If its ok for dogs to do it, then its ok for people, right? This is the ‘logic’ that at least some homosexuals want to use to justify their behavior.

The sex drive can be powerful, but can be resisted, as most people would agree is appropriate in at least some circumstances. For instance, if we see someone in public who is extrodinarily attractive, we do not immediatly strip down and go at it. We resist the urge. Why? Because its wrong. But what makes it wrong? Simply a vestige of the morality God has placed in us that is slowly being eroded. There are things God has said to not do. As our society moves to deny God and rebel against Him, more and more of the so-called ‘natural’ activities will become common place.

But not to make homosexuals feel picked on. I feel the same way about heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Yes, the sex drive is powerful, but its not something that can not be controlled. We should not try to justify the desires we do not wish to control. We should simply do the right thing and control our minds and bodies.  

God has said sex outside of certain boundaries is wrong. It makes no difference if your prediliction is for people of your same gender or the opposite gender. If God said to not do it, then you should not do it.

This is not to say we are perfect. Of course we’re not – none of us are. In fact, God said we’re all sinners and earn death (Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23). But we are to strive to be perfect – we need to trust God, control ourselves, and let the Holy Spirit move within us to help us grow to become more like Christ. God has given us the gift of His Son to suffer and die for our sins and He was resurrected and lives today at the right hand of the Father (John 3:14-18; Ephesians 1:20).

If you are interested in my articles on sex or homoseuxality, go the ‘Posts By Category’ and pick the category you’re interested in. That will bring you a series of posts I’ve made over time on the subject.

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27 Responses

  1. People use god as tool for justification of their own hate. They hate gays because god said so. I am not here to say that I was born this way but I sure didn’t chose to be gay any more than you chose to heterosexual. The difference between us and animals is… well there really is none. Incest is wrong for us because of its OBVIOUS HARMFUL PHYSICAL RESULTS (not to mention the emotional trauma). Thats right inbreeding has been scientifically proven to cause problems such as mutations and increased risk for genetic and heretic diseases. Homosexuality to my knowledge does not cause these problems, and don’t give me that AIDS argument. The only reason that AIDS maybe more prominent among the homosexuals (if that is even true) is because of unprotected sex due to the thinking that just because the men can’t get pregnant there is no need to use protection. I am sure the HIV/AIDS count would raise among heterosexual couples if there was a 100% effective birth control method that did not include condoms. I am sure years ago people found just as much “religious” statements to justify segregation and slavery. Just like they justified the slaughter of native Americans, and the crusades, and the witch hunts, women’s rights etc.

  2. I am sorry that was suposed to say “Genetic and hereditary diseases” I apologize for that typo.

  3. Hi theforeverfallen,

    People use anything to justify anything. They dont need God to do it. They use anmials if they want to. I simply pointed out the falacy of the argument when they do so.

    I have not said you asked to be gay. I have had more than a little experience in homosexual sex. As has my wife. But just because someone is wired someway (regardless of how they got wired that way) does not mean that person should indulge in certain behavior.

    For instance, alcoholics should never drink. They might have been born that way, they might have become that way. *shrug* It really does not matter. What matters is their behavior.

    God has said the same thing about sex. We are wired for sex. BUT, God said we need to do it in the confines of marriage, between a man and woman. Any other way is sin according to God.

    But even if we are born a certain way, God can heal us.
    My wife used to believe she was lesbian. God healed her of that. This is what Jesus said about the man who was born blind. It happened so God’s glory could be shown (John 9). We do not know why things are the way they are, but they do not need to stay like they are.

    Take a look at my posts and the comments. These two in particular deal with homosexual sin.
    https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/public-schooling-and-indoctrination/
    and
    https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/christ-did-speak-out-against-homosexuality/

    There are lots of verses that address the various issues involved. Homosexuals and heterosexuals deal with many of the same problems. The only difference I can see is that God said to not have homosexual sex in any context.

    This post deals with the more general problem of sex:
    https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/sexual-sin/

  4. I am not calling you a liar or anything I was just wondering as to the exact references in the bible against homosexuality. My problem is not that people’s religion speaks out against homosexuality or any other “sins” but rather the hostility it causes toward such groups. I mean, people who believe in christianity most likely believe they are 100% right just like anyone belonging to any other religion or ideology, and chances are they are not going to give up that belief. I am not asking that of anyone as I would respect anyone who would not ask that of me. My problem is with the hostility that such religions or ideologies cause toward other groups not conforming to their particular mold of perfection or righteousness. Religious differences in this age account for an alarming amount of the violence, as well as the ignorance of the people who will not see things from the outsiders view or will not let the outsider live their life in peace. You are not going to convert people to christianity or any other religion through fist fights, or by constantly calling them liars or sinners. Conversion by sword has never worked throughout history, it only introduces hatred and pagan ideology back into the mainstream religion. Hatred only begets more hatred. The only way people outside of a given religion will respect that religion is if that religion truly accepts people just as they are, and that will never happen because that concept completely contradicts the very basis of that religion.

    If a chrisitian says there is no god and Jesus was a liar and a fraud one would say he was never truly a christian to begin with. I cannot speak for your wife but in my experience people who claim to be “healed” of their homosexuality were never gay to begin with or are not just suppressing the truth. Homosexuality is not an illness that can be cured just like christianity, even still why would someone want to reject a part of their very being. It is religion and a corrupt and spiteful society that has caused gay men and women to be ashamed of themselves to the point of seeking “healing” from themselves. I don’t know if you like movies but you should check out the movie X3: The last Stand. It is any amazing commentary on life as an unwanted unchangeable human stain in this world of perfectionism.

  5. Hi theforeverfallen!

    I can’t understand the hostility people have towards others who are different than they are. I know it exists. I’ve experienced it. But it’s foreign to my mindset.

    As I said before, people use all kinds of things to justify their behavior. This is true for people who call themselves christian as well. Christ tell us we are to love others as we love ourselves (Luke 10:27). But as you know, there are many people who attend church who do not live like that. These are people who do not know what the love of God is. Without that knowledge, they can not know what it is to love others. This is the problem with accepting people into the church who do not love Him. It becomes a social club, instead of the haven of teaching, healing, and love it is intended to be.

    People have the right to live life as they please so long as they do not affect others. They have the right to make decisions that will cause them to go to hell, or to go to heaven. Its totally their choice. But this does not mean others do not have the right or responsibility to speak out when people are doing things that are wrong.

    It is not important if Christianity is accepted, either within or without the church. What is important is that people hear the truth and make a decision for themselves. Everyone must have the opportunity to hear that Christ died for their sins. That God loves them. And that if they do not believe, they will suffer for their lack of belief and their actions.

    If you believe God wrote the Bible, then you have to believe that what the Bible says is what God believes. God said homosexuality is wrong. He said it is a sin against both people involved (https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/homosexual-sex-is-sin-against-self-and-partner/). God said these things will cause people to go to hell. If you believe what God has said, and you love others, then you will warn them about it. That is part of what love is.

    Its not shame that makes one seek healing, but a recognition of a problem. You do not feel shame if you have cancer. It is not normal. It is not part of who you are, although many people identify themselves as victims of it. In fact, it is NOT who they are. As such, they seek healing. You recognize a problem exists and you seek healing. God said homosexual desire and sex (Romans 1) are bad. Therefore, agreeing with God is simply a recognition of what God has said.

    You have a belief that certain things are immutable, such as homosexuality. But if you believe what God has said that certain behavior is wrong, certain thoughts are wrong, you would want to be who He has said. If you are unable to change yourself, and you believe God is all powerful, you will look to Him. For God, who created all things, all things can be changed. There are examples of reparative therapy working to differing degrees for people who are highly motivated. But I think the most important thing is to trust and obey God. If we do that, He will renew us and give a right spirit (Ps 51). He will make us who He wants us to be, but we have to trust Him. My wife is an example of this. God loves. God sustains. God heals.

  6. I disagree with the comment that people seek so called “healing” out of recognition of a problem. Homosexuality is not the problem. It is the people who believe it is a problem that is the problem. Cancer may not be who they are but then that analogy only works if you are naive enough to believe that just because you were taught hate that, that hate is thus justified. It is not god that I have a problem believing in it is the christian faith that I have a problem with. Of course it is not the christians that I wish to insult or belittle, but religion teaches narrow minded hatred while the whole concept of god teaches love.

  7. But you see, calling something bad because God called it bad does not make it hate. It actually makes it love – for God and one’s neighbor.

    I have yet to see anywhere I have mentioned hate. You keep wanting to label me as being hateful because God has called something bad. It seems to me that you are trying to use the label ‘hate’ to avoid dealing with the issue. I doubt that really makes you feel all that much better.

    You are right, the problem is not homosexuality. The problem is sin. God said that everyone (probably speaking of people who can tell the difference between right and wrong) have sinned. The actual verse, Romans 3:23, goes: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” 1 John 1:8-10 says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives”. God also said that when we sin, we earn death, Romans 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Jesus said in John 8:11, “…Go now and leave your life of sin.”

    Now all we have to do is figure out what is sin. Romans 7:7 tells us, “…I would not have known what sin was except through the law…” In fact, Romans 14:23 tells us, “…everything that does not come from faith is sin.”
    I think we are all fallen creatures. I think sin is a matter of thought, motive, action, and nature (https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/is-sin-a-matter-of-thought-motive-action-or-nature/).

    But we do not want to recognize our sin (https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/do-people-who-sin-recognize-it/). We want to justify it. We want to relabel it. We want to side-step the issue. We do not want to take responsibility. But when people are doing something that God has said is bad, then those people often want to protect themselves instead of accept responsibility for what they have done and change. One way of protecting themselves is to think of the person identifying the sin as someone who is ignorant or hateful or scared. One way of protecting themselves is to attack instead of accept responsibility. One way of protecting themselves is to divert attention away from themselves.

    True religion is not hate. It is love, as defined by God. It is visiting sick people, people in prison. It is helping others. It is calling people on their stuff and helping them through it, when they are ready.

    Believe it or not, love is what makes most people I’ve known say that homosexuality is bad – love for people who are stuck in it and love for God.

  8. Uhmm When you don’t “love” somthing you “hate” it. Saying “god” said something is bad just because you you fear or loath it does not in fact make it bad. Like I said before I have never actually seen a reference that shows god talking out against homosexuality. And even more to the point. I cannot actually find prof of god’s existence, but that is a whole different topic I don’t want to get into here.

  9. Its not true to say you love or hate something, with nothing in between. I’m pretty apathetic most times, I neither love nor hate most things. I sometimes like or dislike things. But usually, I don’t care. That’s the way it is with most people, if you stop to think about it.

    Well, homosexual sin is discussed in the Old Testament and New Testament.
    God was speaking to Moses, writing the laws, Lev 18:22, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
    Again in Lev 20:13, “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
    Jesus spoke out against all sexual sin in Matthew 15:18-20 and Mark 7:20-23.
    In Romans 1, God called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent. Plus when you look at all the places God used pornos or porneia, which points to any sexual sin, then its pretty clear God is against it.
    1 Cor 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:5-8 also address it.

    This series of posts deal with the issue of homosexual sex and references many more verses: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/category/god/sex/homosexual/

    This particular posts deals with how homosexual sex is a sin against yourself and your partner: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/homosexual-sex-is-sin-against-self-and-partner/

  10. […] Its NATURAL in the Animial Kingdom, so its ok for us…. « Wbmoore’s Weblog. […]

  11. You have based all your arguments on religion but there are those that do not belong to any organized religion and yet are chastised for being gay.

    I have an agnostic uncle who is gay and in a loving relationship..heck he demonstrates to us what love should be. His hetero brothers are all over having affairs with ladies all over the city.

    You cant tell me he is wrong just because your holy book tells you so.

  12. Hi Seasons!

    Actually, the truth does not change just because someone does not believe it. For instance, It is dark outside right now where I am. I could tell someone it is dark, and they can believe me or not – this does not change the truth of the matter.

    Whether someone believes in God or not, He has said certain behavior is right, and certain other behavior is wrong. In the end, He will judge us all. Those who trust in Christ will be found to have the righteousness of Christ, who died for our sins (all one has to do is accept the gift).

    You would be surprised how many people claim to be Christian (regardless of whether they are heterosexual or homosexual) and still want to live life their own way instead of how God has said should be done. As someone who loves God and others, I would prefer to not see people hurt by their choices. So, I let people know what God has said – I call people to a higher standard – particularly those within the church (not for a moment thinking I am perfect).

    It certainly sounds as if your uncles are all choosing to live life as they choose, rather than how God has said. Its certainly their choice.

    However, you are correct. What I write is written for people who claim to know Christ. Anyone who does not believe in Christ is free to do as they wish and deal with the consequences later. Actually, that’s true of us all.

  13. But you could bring him to your house, take a picture, prove to him it is dark. Darkness is the absence of light. It is absolute. God, Religion, Truth, Right, Wrong, Those things are not absolute because you cannot prove them. Christians measure these things with the bible, Muslims base their on the Qur’an, The Mormons the Book Of Mormon, etc. But these are just books written by men and all are subject to interpretation by the humans reading them.

  14. If the person with whom you are speaking is totally blind, you would not be able to prove whether it is dark or light. For him, its all the same. He could not tell if it was daylight or dark, but this would not change the truth of the matter. Something is either true or not, regardless if you can see it, or if you believe it.

    The Bible is either true or not. If it is not true, then there is no point in believing anything it says. The Bible has been proven to be historically accurate in both history and prophecy (https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/is-the-bible-trustworthy/), time and again.

  15. Truth is very definitely absolute. By definition, truth is not relative. Something is either true or not. For instance, 2 + 2 = 4. You might want to pretend 2 + 3 = 4, but you would be wrong.

    The same is true for moral truth. Something is either right or wrong. Someone might be hardened to the truth, but this does not make it less true. An extreme example would be whether burning someone alive is right or wrong. Some might say the circumstances determine whether this is right or wrong, but the truth of the matter is that it is always wrong. People might try to justify this behavior, but that does not change the fact that it is always wrong.

    If moral truth is relative, then you end up with no morals at all, other than might makes right, and so move into anarchy. While this might appeal to some, it is this sort of thing that societal rules have attempted to mitigate.

    It is interesting that societies across the world and time have often come to the same rules: ‘do not murder’, ‘do not steal’, etc. How these rules are interpreted or applied might differ, but the rules, the moral rules, still exist. Why? Because of the moral laws created by God. Some might try to say that such and such does not apply to me, but we must sear our souls and minds and hearts to do so.

  16. 2 + 2 = 4 is only true as long as the majority of the people agree that “2” represents two objects and that “4” represents four objects. While the fact that taking “I I” and adding “I I” will always equal “I I I I”. Saying two plus two equals four is only true as long as the majority of the people define Two and Four the same way. Facts absolute but truth is relative.

  17. You are confusing language with truth. The very definition of truth is that it is in accordance with the facts. If the facts are absolute, then so is the truth. You might use different language to describe a truth (a fact), but it remains true, regardless of how you feel about it or what you think about it or what language you choose to describe it. “Dos mas dos son cuatro” means “two plus two equals four” – regardless of the language you choose, the truth is that two plus two equals four. The language could change where the word ‘two’ means ‘rain’, and vice versa, but the facts do not change, nor does the truth – just the language used to describe said truth. Language is fluid, facts and truth are not. You might accept the facts or not, but this does not change either the facts or the truth about the facts. Hence the phrase ‘in truth’ meaning ‘in fact’.

    My ten year old son knows that truth is absolute – that it does not change. You might use different words to describe it, but it means the same thing – it is still truth.

    Facts and truth are absolute. Look it up.
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/truth
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fact

  18. I did not mean to bring out a debate on truth. All I needed is to bring the point that organized religion- mostly Christianity uses the bible to say homosexuality is wrong.

    If you all recall, the bible has been used to justify for or against segregation, slavery,universal suffrage etc.

    You all know how contradictory the bible can be and it is not an easy book to understand and there are claims a lot was lost in translation. I would hesitate to use a belief based on the book to justify anything.

    I actually dont believe homosexuality is a sin or evil.

  19. Seasons,

    No worries. theforeverfallen and I seem to have an ongoing discussion.

    Yes, the Bible has been used to justify many things. However, the Bible, the animal kingdom, money, appearance, power, poverty, and all sorts of things have been used to justify bad thoughts and bad behavior. From my perspective, there are two types of Christians: 1) people who seek to justify their behaviors and twist things to do so, and 2) people who seek God and His kingdom and adjust their behaviors and desires based upon what the Bible says. It is the latter who truly seek God, while the former place themselves in God’s place in their lives with the Bible for justification.

    I’ve studied the Bible extensively, especially after I became a Christian. I have seen lists of apparent inconsistencies. However,I have not found any apparent inconsistency in the BIble that does not have a reasonable explanation, so it is actually internally consistent.

    Everyone is free to believe what they wish. I see homosexual sex no different than any other type of sex God said to not do. I happen to like most folks I know, and have more problems with certain heterosexuals I know than the homosexuals I know. However, that has nothing to do with what God has said. God said certain behavior is wrong. This includes incest, bestiality, same gender sex, sex outside of marriage, prostitution, lying, stealing, murder, revenge, consulting the dead, and more. I can’t think of anything God has said to not do that either me, my wife, or someone one of us knows well, have not done at one time or another (most of them were before I became a Christian).

    So for me, its not about “I’m better than someone who does anything God said not to do.” Its not about discriminating or hating or even disliking. For me, its about love for God and obedience to God and a desire to help those who are stuck in sin recognize their situation that they might seek to be who God wants them to be.

  20. Thanks for the clarity. Here in Africa, it is really hard for gay person and having one in the family, I like to learn more and defend him where I can because apart from religion, we have to deal with the law too.

    I was born and grew up a Christian but not the ‘saved’ type. I cant say am a follower of Christ though because I have not tried to understand him much and the bible is not something I have affinity for.

    As a brief, I am a divorced father of two girls (who I live with) and I have issues with the fact that it is said that divorce is also a sin. I cant understand what type of god would want me to stay in a cruel marriage so as not to commit a sin.

  21. I am divorced. I am now married to a different woman, with 3 boys and a girl with my second wife.

    The church often treats divorce as the only unforgivable sin. But like homosexuality, it is forgivable. Unlike homosexual sex, in some cases divorce is allowed.

    There are two known reasons divorce is allowed in the Bible: marital unfaithfulness (Matthew 5:32) and if someone who does not believe in Christ leaves (1 Corinthians 7:10-16). One thing that be deduced is this is a rule for believers only.

    Many times, divorce occurs simply because of the selfishness of one person in the marriage. God intended a marriage to make each person complete and to help the two grow together to learn more about God. It is supposed to help us learn what love is. God defined love for us in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. Few understand it or live it, unfortunately.

    I grew up Roman Catholic. I learned almost nothing about God through the Bible from that experience. I learned nothing of the Bible. I had no relationship with God. I had been a Christian in name only until I left the church. I was like many people who attend church – I learned stories and made confession and prayed. But I did not know God.

    God wants us to trust Him, to trust that He sent Christ to suffer and die for our sins. It was not until I was 31 and already divorced that I came to follow Jesus. It was at that time that I became a Christian. My sins were forgiven and I have been given eternal life with God because I have faith in God and what He has done. My life has not been the same since.

  22. I just wanted to clarify something to you and all who have read our back and forth. I do not hate you and do not wish to have my comments perceived as hostile. I have a great respect for you and your commitment to your religion. I have no desire to attack you or anyone else belonging to that faith. I enjoy conversing with you and I find I learn more and discover more about me and the world when I debate as opposed to just “studding”. Anyways I am just leaving this quick comment because of a comment that was left for me that makes me believe people are thinking I am attacking your and/or your faith.

  23. Hi again theforeverfallen! :)

    I do not hate you either. I don’t think you’ve been particularly hostile. I actually think you have been pretty well restrained, and quite civil. I find you think well, though I disagree with your positions on things.

    I do not feel attacked, and I hope you do not feel attacked by me. I certainly am not attacking homosexuals, although I am sure some people feel I am. I am addressing behavior and thought patterns in the context of the BIble (I hope everyone can see I am trying to keep this blog focused on what the Bible has to say). I’m only hitting this particular thing so much lately because I am active in another forum where that seems to be a hot topic, and it gives me stuff to post here in more detail than I can do there.

    I must say, I also enjoy conversing with you. As I’ve said, I like the way you think. It keeps me on my toes. :)

  24. Oh no, Even if I knew you I hardly doubt there would be anykind of attraction between us. I was simply setting the record straight (Um so to speak…) People have Accused me of attacking you but I actually do respect you.

  25. Excuse me I meant to say “I hardly think there would be anykind…” Anyways it has been a long day for me and to prevent myself from embarrassing myself I am going to not comment anymore tonight… infact you probably will not hear from me again until I get back from vacation. I just want to say one thing. In your own opinion Would your god accept a gay man into heaven who believes in god and loves god and believes he has been “saved by god” he is willing to change every aspect of his life except for his homosexuality Or do you think even if he repents for his sins except for the “sin” of homosexuality god will reject him? Just curious as to your opinion on that matter.

  26. hehe :) You made me chuckle. I also respect you – as Miss Swan from Mad TV would say, “You funny man.”

  27. This is a good question. I think that God will definitely not reject a homosexual coming to Him, just as God does not reject anyone who comes to Him.

    When people come to Him, I think the initial repentance is to turn away from not believing Him and not following Him. Once you have begun the walk, I think God will work on you in the areas He wants you to change, WHEN He wants you to change. You must at least be willing to agree with God about what He says is sin. And then begin the process where and when and how He would have you do it – each of us is different and each of us have our own pet sins that God works with us to change.

    Anyone who loves God will want to change in the ways that please Him. As we walk with God, our love for Him will grow. As our love for Him grows, our attraction to sin diminishes. When He prompts us to change, or to be willing to change, we will do so because we love Him.

    Have a nice vacation!

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