Is the relationship between God the Father and Christ supposed to be familial?

Let me preface this post with the statement that both I and the person (whom I respect) with whom I had part of this discussion both believe  that God the Father is the creator, that Christ is God and that Christ is distinct from God the Father – we agree on those points.

The statement was made, “The biblical understanding of Father was not as used in the Father-Son relationship, but used to describe, much like Judaism, the Creator or sole principle” (http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/01/20/god-the-father-and-jesus-christ-ignatius-of-antioch-and-the-economy-of-god-part-1/).

I ask: What makes you think the Biblical understanding of Father did not include Father as loving parent of a family?

His response:  “In late Judaism, the view of God as Father was not dependent upon a family relationship.”

I agree the Judaic understanding of God the Father was not one that included a familial understanding. But they also did not have an understanding of the Messiah as being the Son of God either. Just because they did not have that understanding does not mean it was not a mystery that was revealed in the New Testament writings, which appears to be the case.

It is obvious that scripture teaches God is to be considered our father because He is our creator. But I believe that is a limited view of what Scripture teaches, based solely on the Old Testament. The words translated in the New Testament as father means biological father, creator, originator, male ancestor, and so much more. The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3962&version=nas) tells us various meanings of the word used for father:

Strong’s Number: 3962 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
pater apparently a root word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pater 5:945,805
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pat-ayr’ Noun Masculine
Definition

  1. generator or male ancestor
    1. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
    2. a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
      1. fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
    3. one advanced in years, a senior
  2. metaph.
    1. the originator and transmitter of anything
      1. the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
      2. one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
    2. one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way
    3. a title of honour
      1. teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
      2. the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
  3. God is called the Father
    1. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
    2. of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
      1. of spiritual beings and of all men
    3. of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
    4. the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
      1. by Jesus Christ himself
      2. by the apostles

Part of the understanding of Father (in reference to God) includes a relation to Jesus Christ which includes love and intimacy.

We can see more of this when we look at the meaning of Son, when used in reference to Christ. The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas).

Strong’s Number: 5207 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
uio� apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Huios 8:334,1206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hwee-os’ Noun Masculine
Definition

  1. a son
    1. rarely used for the young of animals
    2. generally used of the offspring of men
    3. in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
    4. in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
      1. the children of Israel
      2. sons of Abraham
    5. used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
      1. a pupil
  2. son of man
    1. term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality
    2. son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13 and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd Century) it is used of Christ.
    3. used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that he might intimate his Messiahship and also that he might designate himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah in royal splendour.
  3. son of God
    1. used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:
    1. used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:
  4. and of angels and of Jesus Christ
    1. of those whom God esteems as sons, whom he loves, protects and benefits above others
      1. in the OT used of the Jews
      2. in the NT of Christians
      3. those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by chastisements (Heb. 12:5-
    1. those who revere God as their father, the pious worshippers of God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Rom. 8:14, Gal. 3:26 ), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons of God. Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father’s will in all his acts

The word translated as son in reference to Christ MEANS son, offspring, decendant .

Christ and John both used the symbolism of Father as the loving, providing, leader of a family.

Matthew 5:45

45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 7:11

11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Matthew 12:50

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Luke 11:11-13

11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

John 3:35

35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

1 John 5:18-21

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

I think Christ used the metaphor purposefully – not just to bring to mind the idea of creator, but to encourage relationship with God that is similar to that of a child and parent.

Just because the writings we have from the early church fathers did not display an understanding of God the Father and God the Son as having a relationship like father and son does not mean the relationship is not there. Nor does it mean the they did not have such an understanding, simply that the writings we have focused on the aspect of God the Father as creator. If you look at different writings from a particular author, you will find each manuscript focuses on a set of ideas or topics the author wants to address in that manuscript, but this does not mean those are the only thoughts the author has on topic. Nor does it mean Christ did not want people to think of God the Father as a loving father. Otherwise, why would Jesus have said almost exactly those words?

Matthew 7:11

11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

John 3:35

35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

John 5:20

20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

Yes, the writings we have of early church fathers did not focus on the parent-child image of God the Father and Jesus Christ God the Son. But the relationship is there none-the-less, as we see from Scripture.

Advertisements

26 Responses

  1. […] Wbmoore’s Weblog placed an interesting blog post on Is the relationship between God the Father and Christ supposed to be familial?Here’s a brief overviewLet me preface this post with the statement that both I and the person (whom I respect) with whom I had part of this discussion both believe  that God the Father is the creator, that Christ is God and that Christ is distinct from God the Father – we agree on those points.The statement was made, “The biblical understanding of Father was not as used in the Father-Son relationship, but used to describe, much like Judaism, the Creator or sole principle” (http://thechurchofjesuschrist.wordpress.com/2 […]

  2. “Let There Be Light”

    “In The Beginning” The Creator(Our Father) said, “Let There Be Light, and There Was Light”

    “LIGHT Begets Light!”
    “The Beginning of The Creation of GOD!”

    And the revelation that The Messiah received of The Creator and gave unto the apostle John bore witness to The Truth that The Messiah, was “The Beginning of the Creation of GOD(Our Father, Creator of ALL)”! (Rev 1:1, 3:14)

    And The Messiah bore witness to His Brethren when He testified, “My GOD is your GOD and My
    Father(Creator) is your Father(Creator).”(Jn 20:17)

    The Messiah testified “I have sent My angel to you with this testimony for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David. I am the bright, Morning Star(Light)”! (Rev 22:16) ) Peter testified “We have the more sure word of prophecy; and you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and The Morning Star(Light) arises in your hearts.”(2Pt 1:19) “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, HIS own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of HIM who called you out of darkness into His marvelous Light.”(1Pt2:9)

    And the evening(darkness) and The Morning (Light) was the First Day.” (Gen 1:5)

    “Let There Be Light”!

    “The Beginning of The Creation of GOD”!

    It is very important to both know and experience The Messiah as He Is, Was and always Will Be, and also to know the “glory He had with Our Father” before He was born in “the likeness of sinful flesh”. (John 17:5, Rom 8:3) For what The Messiah Was and Is, Is that which He will always Will Be.”The Only Begotten Son” of “Our Father”!

    First, let me simply state that I do not believe the “catholic” and “christian” theo’ry’logical doctrines concerning “The Only True GOD, Father ALL”. For they “image”ine a three-headed “god” they call their “trinity”, or they declare their “christ” to be their “god and father”, or they believe that The Messiah was but an exalted messenger(angel) or prophet.

    John The Baptist testified, “And I saw, and bare record that The Messiah is the Son of GOD(Our Father).”(John 1:34) Peter testified, “You are The Messiah, The Son of The Living GOD(Father of ALL)”!(Matt 16:16) And the Ethiopian eunuch testified, “I believe that The Messiah is The Son of GOD(Our Father)”. (Acts 8:37) “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the Heavens, The Messiah, The Son of GOD(Our Father), let us hold fast our profession.” (Heb 4:14) “These things are written so that you might believe that The Messiah is The Son of GOD (Our Father)”. (John 20:31) The Messiah testified that He was “The Son of GOD”, and that His GOD was “The Only True GOD(Father of ALL)”. (John 10:36,17:3)

    And The Messiah also testified that He was the “Son of man” and “The Light of the world”. (Matt 26:64, John 8:12)

    It is needful to believe that The Messiah Was, Is and always Will Be “The Son of The Living GOD”, and that there is but “One GOD, HE WHO is Father of ALL”. (Mat 16:16, Eph 4:6) The Messiah bore witness to His Brethren when He testified after being “raised from among the dead”, “My GOD is your GOD and My Father(Creator) is your Father (Creator)” (John 20:17)

    Is The Messiah’s GOD and Father your GOD and Father?

    Who are The Brethren of The Messiah?

    “Let There Be Light”

    Once again, It is very important to both know and experience The Messiah as He Was, Is and always
    Will Be. The Messiah simply testified in John 17:5 “And now O Father, glorify Me with YOUR own self with the glory that I had with YOU before the world began”.

    Prior to that testimony The Messiah had testified, “Yet a little while is The Light with you. Walk while you have The Light, lest darkness comes upon you: for he that walks in darkness does not know where he goes. While you have Light, believe in The Light, that you may be the children of Light.” (John 12:35-36)

    And the apostle John testified: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and The Word was GOD. (John did not testify that The Word is GOD)The same was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was Life; and The Life was The Light of men. And The Light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from GOD, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of The Light, that all men through Him might believe. He(John the baptist) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the True Light, which enlightens every man that comes into the world. He(The Messiah) was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of “The Only True GOD, Father of ALL”.” (John 1:1-13)

    It is needful to realize that The Messiah testified of “The Only True GOD” in John 17:3, and so it is that The GOD and Father of The Messiah IS, WAS and always WILL BE “The Only True GOD”.

    “The Only True GOD” is “Father of ALL”.

    And “The Father of ALL” is “Our Father”, HE WHO IS “The Only True GOD” and Father of The Messiah and His Brethren.

    And the apostle John testified in John 3:17-21:
    “For Our Father sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD(Our Father). And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates The Light, neither comes to The Light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does Truth comes to The Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in GOD(Our Father).”

    In John 12:34 the people asked, “Who is this Son of man? Then in John 12:35-36, “The Messiah said unto them, yet a little while is The Light with you. Walk while you have The Light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walks in darkness does not know where he goes. While you have Light, believe in The Light, that you may be the children of Light. The Messiah spoke these things, and departed, and hid Himself from them.”

    Simply, “In The Beginning” The Only True GOD spoke The Word, “Let There Be Light”, “And there was Light”! “And there was evening(darkness) and there was morning (Light), The First Day”. (Gen 1:5) Certainly such “Light” was not “natural” light, for “natural” light, the sun, moon, and stars were not created until the “fourth day”. (Gen 1:14-19)

    “In the beginning”, “The First Day”, The Father of All created “The Light”, without which Creation and Life, as we now know and experience it, could not have been.

    The First Day, “The Light”, The Messiah, “The beginning of the Creation of GOD(HE WHO is The Only True GOD and Father of ALL)”! (Gen 1:3, Rev 3:14, John 17:3, Eph 4:6)

    And “The Only True GOD” created all “things” by, through, and for “The Light”, The Messiah, “The Son of The Living GOD” and “Son of man”.(Col 1:15, Eph 3:9, Mat 16:16, Mat 12:32)

    LIGHT begets Light!

    And “The True Light which enlightens every man coming into the world”, was born as a child destined to be The Messiah. (John 1:9, Mat 1:21)

    The Messiah, “The Light of the world”. (John 8:12, 9:5)

    The Messiah, “The firstborn of every creature (all creation)”. (Col 1:15)

    The Messiah, “Begotten of Our Father”, “The firstborn among many Brethren”.(Heb 1:5) (Ps 2:7) (Rom 8:29)

    The Messiah, “A servant of The Only True GOD(Father of ALL)”. (Isa 42:1-7)

    The Messiah, “The Lamb of GOD”.(John 1:29,36)

    The Messiah, “The firstborn from among the dead”.(Col 1:18)

    Once again: “In The Beginning” Our Father, “The Only True GOD” spoke: “Let there be Light, and there was Light”! The Messiah, “The Beginning of the Creation of GOD”, “the firstborn of every creature(all creation)”. (Gen 1:3, John 17:3, Rev 3:14, Col 1:15)

    Thanks Be To “Our Father”!

    The Messiah, The Creation of “The Only True GOD, Father of ALL”! (Rev 3:14)

    The Messiah, “made so much better than the angels”! (Heb 1:4)

    The Messiah, “The Light of the world”!(John 8:12, 9:5)

    “The Lamb of GOD”, “The Light of The New Heavenly Jerusalem”! (Rev 21:22-23)

    Paul experienced “The Light ” on the road to Damascus. “And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and came near unto Damascus about noontime, suddenly a great Light from Heaven shone round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me? And I answered, “Who are You, Master”? And He said unto me, I am Yehowshuwa'(Yeshua, Jeshua) of Nazareth, Whom you persecute. And they that were with me saw The Light, and were afraid; but they did not hear the voice of Him that spoke to me. And I said, “What shall I do, Master”? And He said unto me, arise and go into Damascus, and there you shall be told all things which are appointed for you to do. And when I could not see for the glory of that Light, I was led by the hand into Damascus.” (Acts 22:6-11)

    Paul also testified, “At midday I saw in the way a Light from Heaven, ABOVE THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE SUN, shining round about me and those who journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the HEBREW tongue, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.” (The Messiah could not have told Paul, “I am jesus” for He spoke in the “HEBREW tongue”) (Acts 26:13-14)

    Paul saw “The Light” that was The Messiah and he was blinded(naturally, not Spiritually) for a time. Now when The Messiah was in the “likeness of sinful flesh”, born as “the Son of man”, He could only reflect “The Light”, liken unto the moon which but reflects the light of the natural sun.

    “Let There Be Light”

    The Messiah, “The Light of the world”!

    And consider the natural light provided by the sun, which was Created on the fourth day. Does not the natural light of the sun reveal outwardly, all the earthly, natural things? Consider what happens when that which you thought was clean is exposed to the light of the sun? Is not the least outward particle of
    uncleanness readily seen in the light of the sun? And so it is with “The Light” that is The Messiah. For His Life, “The Life”, reveals and exposes all the uncleanness in “our” life, the life that is of “our” own creation, which is the “I(ego, id)” in all of us, the product of “our” own vain “imag”inations! So it needs be that “The Light” penetrates deeply, even into the innermost recesses of the heart, “rightly dividing the soul and spirit”, exposing all the darkness that the “I” in all of us did not want to “see”!

    Yet for such a cleansing to begin one must “experience The Messiah(The Light) and The Power that raised Him from among the dead”!(Php 3:10) Oh, there are many who know of a “messiah”, yet who has
    experienced “The Light”? For “The Light” was “The Beginning of Creation” both the old, which was natural and earthly and The New, which is of The Spirit and Heavenly. Those who “love this world and it’s things” yet desire that which “decayed, waxed old and vanished away” (Heb 8:13) They are of those “whose ‘god’ is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, for they mind earthly things”. (Phlp 3:19)

    Sadly, those who “love this world and it’s things” yet love darkness more than The Light and they will abide in the darkness they loved forever ;-( (1Jn2:15,Jn3:19-20)

    Sadder yet, systems of religion that are of this world, such as “catholicism”, “christianity”, “judaism”, “islam”, etc., have so perverted The Testimonies, that today, as in the two thousand or so, years gone by, “The Way of Truth is evil spoken of”! All because of the theo’ry’logical, heretical doctrines that are of men! And especially those theo’ry’logical doctrines which seek to define “The Only True GOD, Father of All”. (2Peter 2:1-2)

    All such doctrines are but the product of mankind’s “imag”ination and mankind’s “imag”ination is destroying and perverting Creation(land, air, water, creatures, Light, Truth, Love, Peace, Joy, Hope, .etc.)

    Yes, sadly ;-( Creation is being destroyed by self-willed men who could care less about that which is of The Truth(What Is, Was, and always Will Be), and care even less about those things which they can not comprehend apart from their “natural” senses and mental processes ;-(

    And The Truth testifies, The Creator “will destroy those who destroy the earth(HIS Creation)”(Rev 11:18).

    Sadly, in this wicked world, those who seek profit will naturally overcome those who do not ;-(

    Yet, There Is Hope!

    For The Life is of The Spirit!

    And Miracles do happen!

    And Faith rejoices against profit(greed) and theo’ry’logy(logic)!

    Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving “a love of The Truth” for they will “see” “The Light”. (2Thes 2:10, John 8:12, 9:5)

    And they will receive peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world, for they will clearly “see” that “The WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”. (1John 5:19) And they will clearly “see”
    things as they are and not as “imag”inative, world-loving humans would have others believe them to be, for they will “see” The Light that is The Messiah…….

    francisco

  3. Most have only experienced shadows because they have not seen The Light, and so it is they have never received “the love of The Truth”.

    And apart from receiving “the love of The Truth” one can not experience The Miracle that is Abba(Father).

    Oh, there are multitudes who utter the word, yet few who are Family, few who have a common union with HIM and HIS only begotten Son their Brother The Messiah, for “they love this world, and their own life in it”…….

    Father Help! and HE does…….

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this evil world, for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one” indeed and Truth…….

  4. Francisco,

    Much of what you write is correct and Biblical. However, you are mistaken when you claim Jesus is not part of the God-head. There is one God in three persons. Each separate, distinct, but together are God.

    You yourself quoted one verse which supports this concept. John 12:35-36

    35Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

    Jesus is the Light. The Light walked with man for a little while and then returned to heaven.
    Jn 9:5

    While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    The Light is God, as we see in 1 John 1:5.

    This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

    Other passages that support Jesus is God include Jn 10:30-33, where He made Himself equal to God, thus claiming to be God.

    30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    God called Himself ‘I AM’.
    Exodus 3:!4

    God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ “

    Jesus claimed He was ‘I AM” in Jn 8:58

    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    When people are in God’s presence, they fall down.
    Ezekiel 1:28

    Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

    This is what happened when the evil spirits saw Jesus.
    Mark 3:11

    Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

    This is what happened in the garden of Gethsemene (the pronoun ‘he’ is not in the original text).
    John 18:6

    “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    This is also what happened when Paul saw Jesus on the way to Damascus.
    Acts 9:3-6

    3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

    Jesus said if you have know Jesus, you know God, yet again equating Jesus with God.
    Jn 10:6-7

    6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    So yes, Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Lord, was with God in the beginning because He IS God. There IS only one God, yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God – three persons in one God.

  5. Sadly, religion has had it’s way with you…….

    “The Way of Truth is evil spoken of” because of pagan “catholicism” and her harlot pagan “christian” daughters ;-( Their “imag”ined “jesus christ” is not The Messiah! It was some five hundred years ago that they named one head of their three-headed pagan “god”, “jesus”, during a time that has been called the “reformation”. Prior to that time there was no “j” sound in the english language…….period…….

    Yet the “reformation” was an aptly named time! For it was a time when “catholicism” birthed her harlot “christian” daughters ;-( Her “christian” daughters are of her substance ;-( Her substance was merely “reformed” so that her “christian” daughters might appear a bit differently outwardly, yet inwardly they remained liken unto their pagan harlot mother ;-(

    “christianity” is but the byproduct of the fornicative relationship pagan “catholicism” has always had with “the god of this world”, he who is “the father of lies”, he who is “the angel of light”, “d”evil spirit that rules over this wicked world ;-(

    All religious systems, muslin, jewish, buddhist, catholic, christian ,,etc,, are Anti-Messiah!

    Religious systems of this world, all alike they are,
    Their clones have fought, killed and died, both near and far ;-(

    And then once a week, or multiple times a day they may pray,
    Yet as hypocrites they begin each new day ;-(

    Days that are filled with deceit and lies,
    For in a “religious system” Truth can not abide ;-(

    And so the fruit of death is born of religion’s way,
    Because life is but a pawn in the wicked game they play ;-(

    Simply, Faith will not create a religious system!

    The Messiah testified of a “wicked world”, and of His disciples being “in, not of, this world”.

    John exhorted those who believed “to love not the world or it’s things” for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”!

    And James testified, “whoever is a friend of this world is the enemy of GOD(Father, Great Spirit, Creator,,)”!

    And “the god of this world”, “the father of lies”, “d”evil, is the author of all religious systems and has his way with those who are “of this world” because they follow their own “vain “imag”inations” ;-( And so it is that mankind’s “imag”ination is destroying and perverting Creation ;-( And Our Father has promised that HE “will destroy those who are destroying and perverting HIS Creation(earth, air, water, creatures, Truth, Love, Peace, .etc.)”!

    May there be those who heed GOD’s Call to “Come out of her, MY people”!

    All who take heed unto The Only True GOD’s Call will exit “the broadway to destruction” and they will follow The Messiah on “The Way to The Truth of The Life”! They no longer will have their portion with the “catholic/christian” LIE or any other religious system of this world.

    The Messiah testified, “whoever lives and believes in Me(His Teachings and Life example) shall never die.”

    And then The Messiah questioned, “Do you believe this?” YES!

    And you? Do you believe? Or do you believe in death?

    While there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

    For Miracles Do Happen! Thanks Be To “Our Father”!

    Hope is that there would be those who “come out” of the “strong delusion” that is the religious systems of this wicked world. Hope is that there would be those who believe in and receive of The Life. Hope is that there would be those who would “experience The Messiah and The Power that raised Him from among the dead”.

    Hope is you will, or have experienced The Miracle that is “receiving a love of The Truth”. All who have “received a love of The Truth” will have:

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this wicked world, for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”(1JN5:19) indeed and Truth……. francisco

  6. Sadly, religion has had it’s way with you…….

    Stephen, “being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of The Only True GOD, and The Messiah standing on the right hand of The Only True GOD, And Stephen said, “Behold, I see the Heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of The Only True GOD.”

    “If you have risen with The Messiah then seek those things which are above, where The Messiah sits on the right hand of The Only True GOD. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with The Messiah in The Only True God.”

    Now The Messiah bore witness unto HIS GOD and Father, and also testified that HIS GOD and Father was also The GOD and Father of His Brethren. And The Messiah also declared HIS GOD and Father to be “The Only True GOD”! That declaration of Truth needs not be made more than once and those who have received “the love of The Truth” realize there is Only ONE True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL, yet the multitudes have been seduced and deceived by the systems of religion that are of this wicked world.

    Simply, The Messiah, He testified of “The Only True GOD”, and that “The Only True GOD was His GOD and Father” and “The GOD and Father of His Brethren”…….

    The Messiah, He bore witness to His GOD and Father being The Only True GOD…….

    The Only True GOD, HE has no GOD, for HE IS…….

    And The Messiah, as well as HIS GOD and Father, and Peter, and many others, all testified that The Messiah was The Son of The Only True GOD, and The Messiah also testified that He was The Son of man as well.

    Yet what of the multitudes who are held captive by the systems of religion that are of this wicked world? Most of them believe in a three-headed pagan “god” they call their “trinity”, and then there are those who declare their “imag”ined” “jesus christ” to be both “father and son”, and some declare their version of “jesus christ” to be but an angel or a mere prophet. Simply, sad for them all.

    For Faith will not create a system of religion and will not seek to define The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    Truth is, religion is Anti-Messiah…….

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen!

    Hope is there will be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for they will “see” “The Light” that is The Messiah and such Light will reveal all things as they follow The Messiah on the enLightened path that is The Way to The Truth of The Life…….

    And Truth IS “THY Kingdom”HAS “Come”…….

    Thankfully Truth, as well as The Life, is never ending…….

  7. Sadly, you abide in the darkness that is the pagan religious systems of this evil, wicked world…….

    And “if the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is”……. Such darkness is especially dark in those who believe in the theo’ry’logy of the pagan harlot catholicism and her pagan christian daughters…….

    Yet while there is breath(spirit) there is hope.

    For Miracles do happen.

    Hope is you would experience the Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for only then will you see The Light that is The Messiah…….

    The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD”…….

    Simply, there is Only ONE True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    Thankfully Truth is never ending…….

    • You seem to have a lot of what you have written in comments to this page correct (I have not read much of your blog, so I can not say anything about what is there). But You are most definitely wrong about Christ not being both the Messiah and God. He made it clear that He IS God. Since you offer nothing to address the scriptures I’ve shown you that say Jesus IS God, this is a pointless discussion.

  8. Paul testified that “The Only True GOD was in The Messiah”.

    The Messiah testifed that “His GOD and Father was Spirit” and that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have”.

    Yes, “The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL”, “HE WHO is HEAD of ALL”, was “IN The Messiah” indeed and Truth…….

    The Messiah, “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL”(Rev 3:14)…….

    As The Messiah testified, “The Words that I speak are not My Words”. “For I have not spoken of My own self; but The Father WHO sent Me, HE gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 3:34, 12:49)

    And that catholic/christian word ‘godhead’?

    Simply, Paul testified “The Only True GOD, HE is The HEAD of The Messiah”……. For as The Messiah testified, “The Father is greater than I”……. And The Messiah testified, “I ascend to My GOD and Father”, HE WHO is also The GOD and Father of The Messiah’s Brethren…….

    Thankfully there is Only ONE True GOD, HE WHO is Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE has no god for HE IS The Only True GOD…….

    And The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL”…….

    Truth is never ending…….

    • I agree, there is one God.

      But you are ignoring where Christ said he is I AM.
      You are ignoring where God is light and Christ said He is the light.
      You are ignoring where people are in the presence of God, they fall down and this is what happened to people around Jesus.
      You are ignoring that fact that if you know Jesus you know God.

      God is one in three, three in one. One God. Three Persons.

  9. “But you are ignoring where Christ said he is I AM.”

    You are, for it is clear that The Messiah was before Abraham. Testimony is that The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD”(Rev3:14)

    “You are ignoring where God is light and Christ said He is the light.”

    You are for the testimony reveals that “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(CREATOR) of ALL was “Let There Be Light” and there was Light…….

    Light begat the Light that was destined to be The Messiah, “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(CREATOR) of ALL…….

    “You are ignoring where people are in the presence of God, they fall down and this is what happened to people around Jesus.”

    The Messiah was, is and always will be, the only begotten Son of The Living, Only True GOD, Father(CREATOR) of ALL…….

    The Light that is The Messiah, Light far greater than the sun, caused blindness in the Apostle Paul…….

    “You are ignoring that fact that if you know Jesus you know God.”

    Oh my, how can you the ignorant one, claim ignorance in others?

    Simply, The Messiah testified that all He did, the words He spoke, the works He did, were not of Him they were the words and works of His Father, The Only True GOD…….

    And Paul simply testified that “The Only True GOD(HE WHO is Spirit) was in The Messiah”, not once was there testimony given that The Messiah was other than “The Son of The Living, Only True GOD”…….

    Sadly, religion yet holds you captive…….

    • Lets look at what John said in John 1:1, which you misunderstood earlier.
      John 1:1

      1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

      So we see John tells us that the Word was God (the use of the term ‘was’ indicates John was speaking of who the Word was at the beginning). We know God does not change.
      Malachi 3:6a

      “I the LORD do not change….

      The Word was God, and God does not change, the Word is still God. We see the Word became flesh. This is the Son of God known as Jesus Christ.

      John 1:14

      14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

      So, God became man, in the form of Jesus Christ.

      We also see that God is at the Father’s side and made God known.
      John 1:18

      18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

      Jesus Himself said He made God known.
      John 17:26

      I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.

      God, who sits at the right hand of the Father, made God known. Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God, made God known. Jesus is God.
      Hebrews 1:3

      The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

      So, to summarize:
      The Word was God. God does not change, therefore the Word is God. The Word became flesh, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God became flesh. God sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Therefore Jesus is God. God made God known. Jesus made God known. Therefore, Jesus is God.

    • Francisco,

      Let us look at the passages you mentioned to try to show Christ is not God.
      “it is clear that The Messiah was before Abraham.”

      You are correct in the Messiah was before Abraham, since He existed before time. Being God, of course He existed before time. Jesus said in Jn 8:58,

      “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

      ” Testimony is that The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD”(Rev3:14)”

      Again, this is a true statement. It is true because the word translated as beginning is Arche, which means origin. He is the origin of the creation, hence He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end (Re 21:6, 22:13).

      The Messiah was and is the only begotten Son of God because God is the father of the earthly body called Jesus (Lk 1:26-2:20; John 1:14; 1Jn 4:9), and GOd had planned this from before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9).

      Yes, what Christ said came from the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all together make up God.

      Paul did not speak of whether Christ was God, because it was not an issue He had to address. John was clear concerning the matter, however.

  10. Simply, sad for you…….

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen!

    Hope is that one day you would experience The Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for only then will you see The Light that is The Messiah, He Who was The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

  11. You are but a pagan…….

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen!

    Hope is that one day you would experience The Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for only then will you see The Light that is The Messiah, He Who was The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    • I don’t mind you calling me names. I just wish you knew the love and grace of God that we were given before time began.

      My hope is in Christ, who was sent by the Father to suffer and die for our sins to give us who believes eternal life.
      Of course miracles happen. My children are evidence of that, given that doctors told us we could not have children. But God blessed us with them after my wife got right with God. God has told us to move to different city and miraculously provided money we needed to pay unexpected bills.

      You are ignoring scriptural passages to hold tight to your belief Christ is not God. Yet, as I’ve shown, Scripture is clear He is.

      I pray for you.

  12. Pagans believe in multiple gods…….

    You believe in three, you are a pagan and so is the system of religion that propagated the theo’ry’logical lie they called their catholic “trinity”…….

    You are the one ignorant of scriptural Truth…….

    The Messiah testified, “I ascend to My GOD and My Father”, HE WHO is The GOD and Father of The Messiah’s Brethren, HE WHO is “The Only True GOD”, Father(Creator) of ALL, Messiah inclusive…….

    The Messiah has a GOD and Father, The Only True GOD, HE has no god for HE IS The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL, Messiah inclusive…….

    “Let There Be Light”, and there was Light…….

    GOD WHO IS LIGHT spoke The Word and Begat Light,
    The Light destined to be The Messiah, The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    There is Only ONE True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    “And this is condemnation, that Light has come into the world, yet men loved darkness rather than The Light, because their deeds were evil.”

    You but follow the pagan catholic way, the way that carries on the legacy of the pharisee’s…….

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen!

    Hope is that one day you would experience The Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for only then will you see The Light that is The Messiah, He Who was The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    • Francisco,

      We’ve discussed everything you have written so far, as far as I can tell.

      But you are still ignoring the fact that the Word was God and became flesh and lived among us.

      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
      John 1:14 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

  13. Once again, “you believe in three gods, you are a pagan and so is the system of religion that propagated the theo’ry’logical lie they called their catholic “trinity”…….

    You are the one ignorant of scriptural Truth…….

    “In the beginning was The Word”

    “Let There Be Light” and there was Light…….

    The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD,
    Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    Light begat Light…….

    “And The Word was with GOD”

    Light dwelt with the Creator of Light…….

    “And The Word was GOD”

    Testimony is not “The Word is GOD”

    The Word had proceeded forth from GOD and manifested that which GOD, WHO is Light, was.

    Light had begat Light.

    The Word became Light, The Light destined to be The Messiah, The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

    “And The Word(The Begotten Light) became flesh”…….

    The Light became The Messiah, He Who was begotten of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL”…….

    “And John came to bear witness of The Light”, “The True Light, which enlightens every man born into the world”…….

    If you would just quit reading “the colored marks written on a dead tree” which pagan catholics and christians call their “bible” and “Wait, Wait i say upon The Only True GOD” it could be that The Light might shine within your being and lead you into all Truth, if your desire is to receive “the love of The Truth”…….

    Sadly, it seems your connection to the pagan catholic/christian systems of religion will be almost impossible to overcome…….

    And especially so if you have a love for anything that is in and of this wicked, evil world…….

    Yet there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen!

    • You are again cutting and pasting, but this time it was less and you actually said a couple of things in there that I can address.

      I am not catholic. I used to read books about the BIble, but now I read the Bible.

      How is it you can ignore John 1:1-14?

      God has made it clear that Jesus is God. Only those blinded to the truth by Satan can not see it. I pray God take the scales from your eyes, so you may see the truth.

  14. […] Spirit separate from God the Father or God the Son?, JESUS VS PAUL # 15: Jesus God’s equal?, Is the relationship between God the Father and Christ supposed to be familial?, More on whether Jesus Christ is God. […]

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: