an ongoing discussion on homosexuality and the bible

What follows is part of a conversation with a practicing homosexual.

I wrote:

 The New Covenant is not about living in sin – it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God – not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world – not God. 

 

His response are in blockquotes,

you could put it another way, in regards to the law, not living in sin, means loving ones neighbor as oneself. it covers sins of ommission as well as sins of commission. because, since loving one’s neighbor as oneself is the summation of all the law, then the law is now for making us conscious of whether one is loving ones neighbor as oneself. and who is our neighbor ……………..everyone.

I would add that living in sin shows a lack of love for God, the most important summary of the Law and the prophets – Christ described it as the most important Law. And sin that involves another is the opposite of showing love for that person.

 

sadly, for some on the issue of homosexuality the law is used for anything,

 

It IS sad. I truly do not see homosexual sin as any worse than any other sin, and in fact ‘better’ (from my perspective) than some, such as murder or rape. But God still calls it sin.

but this. Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. in regards to faith…………………..in addition to ephesians 2:8-9, consider 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. ephesians 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The ONLY thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Our entire lives should be based upon love for God and others. But that love will not lead us to do or act or teach something that is contrary to what God has said.

what i find interesting is, that your main defense, is that homosexuality is a sin, because it is” clearly written” so in scripture. _would you use the same arguement for others of the sin nature such as murder and thievery etc. of course not because, these by their very essence, are obviously against the fruit of the spirit (gal5) and the spirit of christ.(paul also uses the word obvious)(niv) romans1:20 says that god showed his essence of what was of him, and not of him…………thru what he created, so that all men are without excuse.

Actually, I WOULD say that what God calls sin is sin, JUST because HE called it so. God defines sin, not you, not me, not anyone else.

Yes, I would agree that murder and thievery are against the fruit of the spirit. But I also would point out that they are spoken of as sin by God. Everything must be measured by the word of God. We might believe something is bad, but God said it is good – who is right? We might believe something is good, but God says it is bad – who is right? I submit it is always God who is right. 

There are societies where it is ok to steal, just not from ‘people’ (those who belong to that tribe). They believe it is ok to murder, just not someone who is from their tribe. They would think that it is against the spirit of God to kill/steal from someone within their group, but it is ok to victimize someone not of their group. In fact, the Word of God provides the standard – murder and stealing are wrong – regardless of how they feel about it.

your reliance on what you consider being written is the same old covenant relationship to the written code.  paul says, under christ we no longer have this old relationship to the written code. a relationship that demanded the prohibition a number of some things, as well as an investment in others, that were promoted.  in this kind of relationship, one is led by the law …………………. the written code.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. I am not relying upon the Old Testament Law for justification. I rely upon Christ’s saving work. However, just because the price has been paid for our sins does not mean we should do those things that God says not to do,  even if it in only in the old testament (and what we are speaking about is spoken of in both Old and New Testament).

in romans , paul says under the new covenat we are now led by and serve of the spirit. the commandments of christ, the three commandments of love. are a clear indication to be led by the spirit, the spirit of love , love that is god.

You are correct in saying we are not under the law (if we accept Christ as having paid our price for our sin). However, this does not mean the old testament or the rest of new testament is to be ignored. To do so is at your own peril.

You ignore scripture. All scripture is useful for trainiing. 2 Timothy 3:14-16

 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

 To what Scripture do you think Paul was referring? We can see the answer in Paul’s own writings – the sacred writings – the Old Testament.

Galatians 3:8

8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

Paul quotes Genesis 3:7-9 when He called it Scripture. Paul does not ignore the Old Testament, He uses it to point our we are justified by faith. In the same way, He used it to show we should not sin. In Ephesians 4:26, Paul quotes Psalm 4:4:

Ephesians 4:26

BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

We simply can not say we believe something is not a sin because it feels good. We can not say something is the essence of love, when in fact it goes against what God has said.

so far you have been without any explanation of spirit that would validate it, being a sin. others explanation is, that it is selfish because, it ignores the law for ones own pleasure, again the reliance on the law. others say that it is disobedience to the law, again reliance of the law. others say the laws of who should be allowed to marry validates it, but again reliance on the law. others say that in ability to procreate………………….another law. others, because of the way they are sexually intimate……………….another law others say that it is because % ‘s of negative behavior…………….

I have shown you using Scripture and logical explanations how it IS selfishness, and that selfishness goes against the love of God. When we place ourselves, our desires, before what God has said, we put ourselves in God’s position. This is not love; it is selfishness. Worse, when our sin involves someone else (causes someone else to sin), it is not love, but selfishness.

Much of what Christ taught was based on the Old Testament. Christ himself said to avoid sexual immorality.

To review, see https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/how-does-romans-teach-homosexuality-is-sin/

https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/is-homosexual-sex-considered-to-be-immoral-sex/

https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/what-did-christ-say-about-immoral-sex-2/

but having been abandoned by friends and family, rejected by society including the church, and subject to assault, incarceration(their attraction carrying the stigma of being illegal), and possible murder for the last 200 years……………….consider…..on the flip side it is an indication of what is possible.

I have no excuse for people’s poor behavior, in the past or now. I can only say I sympathize with the plight of those who have suffered. But I also have no excuse for people who choose to disobey God, I can only sympathize (where appropriate).

why do you say that. there is nothing clear about homosexuality being a sin.

Actually, there is. Unfortunately you are blinded by your desire for self-justification.  I have shown you where Christ spoke about not being sexually immoral (Matthew 15:18-20, Mark 7:20-23). Sexual immorality is defined in the Old Testament. The Law was intended to show us our need for Christ, and Christ paid the price for all sins of all who believe who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

 HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY, HERE AGAIN THE LITMUS TEST IS IF IT COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF………………………PLEASE RESPOND TO THE QUESTION.

1 Cor 6:17-19

17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

The term for immorality is translated from porneia, which speaks of the various sexual acts prohibited in the old testament – including homosexual sex. So homosexual sex is a sin against one’s own body, rather than true love. And when sin involves someone else, it becomes a sin against that other person, rather than love.

I have shown you where Paul called homosexual sex sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done (Rom 1). 

SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT 18-32 IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN.

In part, yes. It describes clearly how God  feels about homosexual sex.

DOES THAT MEAN IF TRANSPOSE HOMOSEXUAL FOR ALL THE PERSONAL PRONOUNS I WILL NOT BE INVALIDATING THE SCRIPTURE. IF NOT ALL, THEN WHERE CAN I DO IT AND NOT IN VALIDATE IT.

Well, that does not actually validate or invalidate the verses. 

However, if you look at the scripture, I think you could substitute ‘the homosexual’ (or its plural or possessive) for the various pronouns and it seems to fit.

 I have shown you where God said the sexually immoral would go to the fiery lake, the second death (Rev 21:7-8). 

AGAIN WHERE DOES AND HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY. IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING THRU INFERENCE OR ARE THERE SPECIFIC WORDS THAT SAY IT. IF THOSE SPECIFIC WORDS EXIST, PLEASE EXPALAIN HOW THEY SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN.

[Us calling something] Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad – homosexual sex, or any other kind. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God.

GOD CREATED EROS , PHILO, AND AGAPE IF ONE EXISTS DOES THAT MEAN THE OTHER DOESNT.

No.

DOES EACH OF THESE EXIST SOLELY UNTO THEMSELVES AND CANNOT EXIST WITH ANOTHER.

Of course they can.

 IF HOMOSEXUALS BOND IN THE SAME SPIRIT AS HETEROSEXUALS,

It is NOT of the same spirit.

HOW IS IT ONE BONDING IS ACCEPTABLE AND THE OTHER ISNT.

Because God said so. It all boils down to accepting God’s word or not. If you don’t, then you don’t. But if you consider the Bible to be the word of God, then you have to accept what He has said.

Homosexual bonding is a  counterfeit of what God created – the relationship between a husband and wife we call marriage. This counterfeiting is what Satan does, over and over. He takes what God has created and tries to warp or twist it as well as people’s understanding of scripture to confuse people so they do not follow God.

 I have shown you where the spirit of homosexual love goes against the Spirit of God, because it is about selfishness (putting your self, your desires, your emotions, your experience above God and what HE has said concerning homosexual sex), not love.

HOW CAN BONDING THAT IS OF THE SAME, AS THE SPIRIT OF HETEROSEXUAL BONDING BE SELFISHNESS .

It is NOT of the same spirit. It might be similar, but it is not the same. The main difference is what God says.

IS HETEROSEXUAL BONDING SELFISHNESS?

Sometimes. There are appropriate and inappropriate bonding. God has said what is acceptable and what is not.

YOU TIPTOE THRU AND AROUND MY QUESTIONS LIKE THEY ARE A MINE FIELD

No. I have answered and answered your questions and addressed your points – over and over. But you refuse to accept what I have said. You refuse to accept what GOD has said. That is your choice, but you do so at your own peril.

But just because you do not like my answers does not mean I am tiptoeing or ignoring your questions. I have been upfront and honest and attempted to address your concerns, questions, points – in what I hope has been a respectful manner.

You are correct that we are saved through faith – because of the grace of God. But we are to repent. Then we are supposed to live like it (James 2:14-19; Acts 26:20). We are to be transformed (Romans 12:2). If you continue to live in a life of sin, then you are not a child of God – you are to not love te world or the things of the world, but the things of God (1 Jn 2:3-6, 15-17, 3:4-6).

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.  18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”  Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that – and shudder.”

SURELYTHERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACKNOWLEDGING SIN IN ONE’S LIFE, AND STANDING ON REGULATION THAT ONE HAS TO REPENT OF A SPECIFIC SIN OR LOOSE ONE’S SALVATION.

I never mentioned losing salvation; whether one can loose one’s salvation is a different discussion.

Repent does not mean feel bad. Repent does not mean acknowledge. Repent means change. If one does not change (of sins, from following one’s own dictates rather than God, and believing one gets to set the rules rather than God, and that one’s efforts are enough, etc.) and turn to God and then have a life that give evidence of that change, then  one is not saved to begin with. That’s what James was talking about that even the demons believe and shudder, but we know they are not in heaven. We are saved through faith in Christ, but there must be evidence of a changed heart for it to be true faith.

I am not saying change is easy. But God says it is required. I am not saying change is instantaneous, but it must begin, and continue. [There will be temptations and set backs, but we must continue to strive to allow God to work in us to become who God wants us to be.]

I KNOW OF NO ONE WHO HAS PASSED OVER. WHO WASNT GUILTY OF SOME UNREPENTED SIN.

I have known plenty who have and who have not.

I think the key is to be who God wants you to be – to leave sin behind. As we mature, we leave more and more sin behind. But to hold on to something which God has said not to do is to not love God.

AND THEN TO SAY THAT SOMEONE IS IN SERIOUS THREAT OF LOOSING ONES SALVATION, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT REPENTED FROM A SIN MANUFACTURED A CONDEMNER’S BELIEF SYSTEM IS LUCRIDOUS.

But this is a sin manufactured by satan. It is a sin committed by men. [That it is sin] is not based upon a belief system, but upon the Word of God. Now, you are free to reject it. Each of us are. We each have to decide who is God, what He has done, what He has said, and what our response will be. But we will also have consequences for those decisions, good or bad.

YES, WORK’S BUT MAY BE AN INDICATION OF FAITH. BUT A FAITH THAT IS NOT ACTIVE DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NON EXISTANT, BUT MERELY LATENT. IN OTHER WORDS IT EXISTS IN SOME PART OF THE PSYCHE AND SOUL OF THE BELIEVER

Scripture speaks of living faith. Scripture speaks of dead faith. It does not speak of latent faith. But it may be you are right, perhaps one may have latent faith. But as James said, “show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works” (James 2:18). If you have no evidence of faith, how do you know it exists at all?

 Paul wrote in Acts 26:20

20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ACTIVE LIVING OUT OF ONES FAITH, BUT ABOUT THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS AND IS NOT A SIN?

It is about living out one’s faith in a way that shows one’s repentance.

Romans 12:2

2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing and perfect will.

ABSOLUTELY…………………..AND WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO WITH WHETHER HOMOSEXUALITY IS OR IS NOT A SIN.

In this case, it has to do with being transformed by God to be who God wants you to be, not being conformed to what the world says is good. The world would have you believe that homosexual sex is a good thing. God says it is not. Only through the transformation of your mind will you be able to accept as good what God calls good, and bad as what God calls bad.

1 John 2:3-6

3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

 JESUS COMMANDS ARE THE THREE COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE. IF LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF(WHICH YOU WILL NOT DISCUSS) IS THE SUMMATION OF ALL THE LAW, THEN BY DOING IT ONE COVERS ALL THE LAW.

Yes, Jesus taught to Love God and love your neighbor – this is the summary of the law. All the things the Law teaches to not do shows you how to love God and love your brother.  You seem to conveniently be missing the other things Jesus taught. He taught to not sin – and He used the Old Testament to do so. 

1 John 2:15-17

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world – the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does – comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

IS HETEROSEXUALITY OF THE WORLD, THEN WHY WOULD HOMOSEXUALITY. THEY ARE MERELY 2 KINDS OF HUMAN BONDING.

Some kinds of sex ARE of the world – God is very clear about that – he calls sex outside of marriage, incest, rape, etc. sin. He also calls homosexual sex sin.

IF THERE IS SIN IT IS NOT ABOUT THE BONDING BUT THE SPIRIT OF THE RELATIONSHIP. ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE SHAME BASED AND LUST RIDDEN, AS DESCRIBED IN ROMANS 1.

God makes it clear men are not to be with men, and women are not to be with women. I have not said all homosexual relationships are shame based, nor lust ridden. What I said was that God calls homosexual attraction and sex to be impurity, degrading passion, unnatural, indecent, depraved, not proper. 

1 John 3:4-6

4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

EVERYONE WHO SINS COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF, HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY DO THIS?

God calls it a sin for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. If someone tries to get someone else to sin, that is sin. It is an act against one’s brother or sister.  That is not love, but selfishness.

 It saddens me to see you, and other apparently sincere people who appear to want to follow Christ, blinded. The New Covenant is not about living in sin – it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God – not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world – not God.

 We are saved by grace thru faith, this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of god, it is not by works(actions), lest anyone should boast.

EPHESIANS 2:8-9

 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

IT KEEPS COMING BACK TO” LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

It is not love to cause your brother to sin. It is not love to ignore God or His word.

YOU GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF IGNORING SOME WORDS LIKE THEY DONT EXIST.

I really hope not. I try to pay attention to every word of God. I have tried to be very clear in this series of posts, to address each and every point you have made.

If I am missing something, please let me know.

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