Will everyone be saved?

Will everyone be saved?

Short answer: No!

There are some who think that because Christ is called “the Savior of THE WORLD”  (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14), and “Savior of all men” ( Timothy 4:10) that indicates EVERYONE will be saved. See the comments here and here. The idea is that everyone is destined to be saved, so if you believe in predestination, you must believe that everyone is destined to be saved.

Personally, I think its easy to reconcile “savior of the world’ with predestination – There is ONLY one savior for the people of this world, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth. But this does not mean He is the savior of EVERYONE one in this world. Because he is the only savior for the people of this world, then He is the savior of the world. This does not mean everyone WILL be or even COULD be saved, in fact it does not speak to the issue of predestination at all – merely that He is the only savior available.

But that is a different thing than the idea that everyone will be saved. People must repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20). Godly sorrow leads to repentance which leads to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10). Not everyone will repent (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:8-11).

Its obvious at least SOME people are predestined to destruction (John 17:12). They are destined to disobey the message of Christ (1 Peter 2:8). God made everything for its purpose – even the wicked for destruction (Proverbs 16:4). No one can come to Christ unless God draws and enables them (John 6:44, 6:65). The work of God is that we believe in Christ (John 6:29). Jesus is the author of salvation (Hebrews 2:9-10) and the author & perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2). It is God who grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:25). ALL that God the Father gives to Christ WILL come to Him (John 6:37). Its obvious that not all will be saved as not every one will believe in the Son of God so God’s wrath is still upon them (John 3:36), and their “names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world” (Revelation 13:8, 17:8). In fact, we know there are some destined for the lake of fire – the second death (Revelation 21:8).

So no, not everyone will be saved.

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40 Responses

  1. Hi! I believe in both predestination and the salvation of the world so I hope you won’t mind if I try to clarify the last sentence of your first paragraph?

    As I see it, one need not believe in the salvation of all men just because they believe in predestination. Surely we know that Calvinists believe in one but not the other. The reason that some of those who believe in predestination also believe in the salvation of all men is because the scriptures speak of both. But belief in one does not necessitate a belief in the other.

    If the scriptures said nothing about the salvation of all men or the salvation of the world but spoke only of predestination then it could be true that only some are/were predestinated by God unto salvation. However, that is not the case. Not only do the scriptures tells us that we were predestinated unto the adoption of sons even before the foundation of the world (who is the message for?), they also speak of the salvation of all men (in numerous places).

    We are even told that we were quickened together with Christ when we were dead in sins (Eph 2:4-9) and, as such, the entire world has been reconciled to God through Christ (2 Co 5:19; Rom 11:15), who gave himself as a ransom for all (1 Tim 2:3-6), a propitiation for the sins of not only believers but the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).

    How can any of this be true if most of the world remains forever lost and unsaved…. forever unreconciled?

  2. Please show where scripture states all will be saved and that all will have eternal life?

    To believe that everyone will be saved and have eternal life is to ignore scripture. All scripture must be reconciled together into one cohesive doctrine, and it is evident that some ARE destined to disobey the message and doomed (Judas).

    To believe that God is going to save everyone is to ignore scripture which tells us that God is holy, righteous and just and will judge and that some will have eternal life, but others go to etenral punishment (Matthew 25:46)

    The book of Ephesians was written to believers, not unbelievers. So yes, the audience of believers were made alive with Christ through faith while they were spiritually dead. This is the case with all people who come to trust in Christ. But is not the case for those who deny Christ unto death.

    The word translated as world is kosmos ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/kosmos.html ). The term means universe – not even considering a living thing. But you chose to limit it to all people. Its is just as correct to limit it to certain people.

    Scripture does NOT tell us everyone is predestined to salvation, but that believers are predestined.

    As for God reconciling the world to Himself, He has done/is doing exactly that. But again this does not mean everyone will be reconciled. It means the offer is there for people to believe but there will be plenty who will not. Christ is the propitiation available for all, but effective only for all who will believe.

    It can be true because God is God. He is the potter and able to make, use, and destroy His pottery as He sees fit.

    I see you chose to ignore the fact that scripture states not everyone will repent and that some are destined for the lake of fire, the second death and eternal punishment. Perhaps that does not gel with your concept of a God who loves us. But it gels perfectly when one considers that God is righteous and holy and just and will judge.

    You also want to ignore that plenty of people chose to disobey Christ and those people do NOT have Christ. Without Christ, the wrath of God is still upon them (John 3:18).

    John 17:9-10 tells us that Christ knew some were His and some where not.

    9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

    Christ is the savior for those who obey Him, not those who do not.
    Hebrews 5:9

    and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    Galatians 6:8 People choose to reap destruction or eternal life.

    The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

  3. Moreover, it seems God will send a deluding spirit/influence so that those who take pleasure in wickedness and refuse to love the truth will believe what is false and be judged

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

    1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    So yes, some will NOT be saved.

  4. Are you seriously asking me to show you where the scriptures say that all will be saved when you quoted at least one of the passages that says so yourself? Paul said, in his letter to Timothy:

    1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    thelō

    1) to will, have in mind, intend
    a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
    b) to desire, to wish
    c) to love
    1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

    So, if God works all things according to the counsel of His own will (Eph 1:11) and He WILL HAVE all men to be saved, then why do you suppose that He will NOT? Those are not even the only verses that say so. How about Psa 46:10

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:

    How about the other verse that I already mentioned that state that Jesus Christ gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL? (1 Tim 2:6) Where we are told that he is propitiation not only for our sins (the sins of believers) but THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD? (1 John 2:2) And that is was WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS (not after we believed) that we are quickened together with Christ? (Eph 2:5) There is plenty in scripture that reveals Christ to be the Savior of all men. The very fact that He is called “the Savior of all men” should alone be sufficient to show who has been saved… THE WORLD!!

    But while ALL MEN are saved only FEW find the narrow road that leads to eternal life. They are not the same thing and I never claimed that all men have eternal life. Nor did I ever claim that it only “men” who are saved, so why do you accuse me of limiting “kosmos” to “all people”? The entire creation groans, waiting to be delivered. (Rom 8:22)

    Back to eternal life, eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. (John 17:3) Those who do not know God and Jesus Christ, who have not passed from death unto life, who still abide IN DEATH (with the wrath of God abiding upon them) DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. And that, dear brother, is where we ALL start. We must PASS from death unto life and we do that by faith. And though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believe (Eph 1:3) that is not the redemption of our bodies, as “babes” are “yet carnal” (1 Co 3) . We wait for “the adoption of sons”. (Rom 8:23) We must “go on unto perfection”. (Heb 6:1) And we can only do that by having Christ formed in us. (Gal 4:19). For CHRST IN YOU is THE HOPE OF GLORY. (Col 1:27) And it matters not who the books were written to… the gospel message does not change based on its audience. It is to be preached to THE WORLD, an UNBELIEVING world. And even Paul tells us that “if we believe not, yet HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL, for He cannot DENY HIMSELF. (2 Tim 2:13) We are HIS BODY, having been baptized into HIS DEATH (Rom 6:3), having been QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST “even when we were dead in sins” (Eph 2:4-8). For it is BY GRACE that we are saved, through faith… the faith OF JESUS CHRIST. What we are striving to know is the same thing that Paul said that he was striving to know and that is THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION (Phl 3:10) which is THE FIRST RESURRECTION (and blessed and holy is he that hath part in it (Rev 20:6). But the fact that we may not yet know THE POWER of it doesn’t mean that we have not already been RAISED WITH HIM (Eph 2:6), just as Paul said, making Jesus Christ Lord both of the living AND THE DEAD. (Rom 14:9)

    The second death and the first resurrection are both tied to Christ and our being found IN HIM… first by way of HIS DEATH… then by the power of HIS LIFE. We have to be DEAD WITH HIM before we can LIVE WITH HIM. No one has part in “the first resurrection” until they after they have their part in “the second death”. And who is that has their part in “the lake of fire”?

    Not only is true that NOW “is the judgment of the world” (John 12:31), NOW “is the day of salvation” (2 Cor 6;2) and what did Jesus say about that? Was it not “I am come to send fire on the earth”? (Luke 12:49) Is it not “the sons of men” who are “set on fire”? (Psa 57:4)

    What is the difference between “the son of man” and “the son of God”?

  5. Mr Moore, Are you aware of the fact that word translated “perish” in 2 Thes 2:10 is the same word translated “lost” in Luke 19:10 (regarding those whom the Son of Man came to seek and to save)?

  6. I agree with you.
    Matthew 7:13
    Matthew 19:24
    Matthew 22:24
    also seem appropriate.

  7. And I asolutely agree with this
    “All scripture must be reconciled together into one cohesive doctrine, and it is evident that some ARE destined to disobey the message and doomed (Judas).” (Although I wouldn’t use the word “destined” since even Judas had free will to the end.

  8. Thanks Kirk.

    Christine, I’m working on a response for you. Its turned out to be quite lengthy.

  9. Kirk, I say destined because of these scriptures:
    John 17:12

    12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    1 Peter 2:8

    and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

  10. Christine,

    Yes, I am seriously asking you to show me in scripture where it says that all will be saved. What I showed you was that God desires all to be saved. One can not pull that out of context and try to say that God will ensure everyone will be saved, because scripture does not say that, so to do so is to twist scripture for your own purposes.

    1 Timothy 2:3-4

    3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    If all you had to go by was that verse, then yes you might be able to make a point. But you have to look at the whole of scripture when dealing with a doctrinal issue like this.

    But we have Matthew 25:46 which states,

    46″These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    And we also have Mark 3:28-29

    28″Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

    We also have Revelation 20:10

    10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Scripture DOES state that God hates people who sacrifice their children, or practice divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, casts spells, or is a medium, a spiritist, or who consults with the dead (Deuteronomy 18:9-13). Why would God save someone He detests?

    John 3:36 tells us that if you do not obey Christ, you will not see life:

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him,

    So, do all obey Christ? No.

    God tells us He wants us to obey Him.
    Deuteronomy 27:10

    “You shall therefore obey the LORD your God, and do His commandments and His statutes which I command you today.”

    Does everyone obey God? No.
    Deuteronomy 28:45

    “So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.

    So, just because God wants people to obey Him does not mean He makes it happen. In the same way, God wants everyone to be saved, but He does not make it happen.

    We see more of this in 2 Timothy 2:24-25

    24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth

    People must be corrected gently “if perhaps God MAY grant them repentance”. So its not a guarantee that people will be granted repentance.

    We KNOW that Christ spoke in parables so that those who were not of the kingdom of God would not understand so they would not return and be forgiven.

    Mark 4:11-12

    11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”

    God blinds some people and hardens the hearts of some so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn.
    John 12:39-42

    39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

    40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them.”

    41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him. 42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

    Romans 11:7-8

    7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
    to this very day.”

    So God, who wants all to repent, actually prevents people from repenting.

    God does not want people to sin, yet they do. To the point where God had to plan to send His Son to be born to suffer and die to pay the price for our sins.
    Acts 2:23

    23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    And we see in Acts 4:27-28 that God used Herod, Pontius Pilate, and the the Gentiles and the people of Israel were used by God to what He predestined.

    27″For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

    He did it so that His the riches of His glory could be shown. Romans 9:22-23

    22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

    Now, you want to say that 1 Tim 2:6 states everyone will be ransomed – but this is not what it says. Jesus is the one who is the ransom for all in the sense that He died for the sins of the world, just as He is the savior of the world, and “all men”, but this does not mean everyone. It means He is the only ransom and only savior available. His death becomes efficacious for those who believe. Once they believe and repent and turn to God (before death), then they are saved from eternal punishment to eternal life. At that point, Christ is their savior, their ransom. Its like saying I have an apple for you, but its not yours until you actually take it.

    Take a look at this blog entry for more on the limited use of “all”: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/christ-is-the-savior-of-the-world-but-not-all-the-world-will-be-saved/

    And yes, Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of all (1 John 2:2), but it only becomes effective for those who believe, repent, and turn to God through faith in Christ. Again, this does not state everyone will believe.

    It is evident not everyone believes:
    1 John 5:10-12

    10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    You asked,

    What is the difference between “the son of man” and “the son of God”?

    Jesus is both the Son of Man and the Son of God.
    Luke 12:8-9

    8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

    John 20:31

    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    The Jews wanted to kill Jesus in part because by calling himself the Son of God, He was making Himself equal to God.
    John 5:18

    18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    When He called Himself the son of Man, he was probably referring to Daniel 7:13-14

    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    These terms speak of Jesus’ humanity (Son of Man), and His deity (Son of God).

    You wrote, “But while ALL MEN are saved only FEW find the narrow road that leads to eternal life. ”

    What do you think being saved means? What do you think the difference between being saved and eternal life is?

    Godly sorrow leads to repentance that leads to salvation.

    10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

    We see that Christ will appear a second time for salvation to those who eagerly await Him. To await Him, you must have faith in Him.

    Hebrews 9:27-28

    27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

    Faith is the requirement for eternal life.
    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    According to Jesus, those who believe God will not be judged but have eternal life.

    John 5:24

    Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    Eternal life is to know God (and Jesus Christ). This is to be in a relationship with the Son and the Father.
    John 17:3

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    We are saved from the eternal punishment resulting from judgement because we trust in Christ and so are able to enjoy our eternal life with God.

  11. Mr. Moore,

    If you admit that God WANTS all men to be saved but claim that NOT ALL men WILL BE saved, then you are claiming that God DOES NOT “work all things according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL” though the scriptures say He does. You are also saying that God LIED when He said: “I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” You are claiming that God is not Sovereign or that man’s will trumps God’s will. It is not by our own will but by THE WILL OF GOD that we are “born again”. To claim that God wants all men to be saved but that not all men are saved it to claim that God works AGAINST HIS OWN WILL. Can you not see that? Why in the world would God predestinate only A FEW to salvation when His desire is to save ALL?

    Paul did not say that God ‘wants’ all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (but he won’t get want he wants). He said God WILL HAVE all men to be saved… check the Greek. And question your own theology if you don’t believe that God can get eevn that which He “wants”. The children are subject to the Father, not the other way around.

    Eternal life BELONGS TO BELIEVERS, Mr. Moore. And unbelievers abide IN DEATH (everlasting punishment). I never said otherwise. Yes, FIATH IS REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL LIFE. AMEN!! That life IS IN THE SON and it is THE LIFE that we HAVE if we HAVE the Son (present tense!). This also means that one CAN PASS from one to the other, as (indeed) WE MUST PASS “from death unto life”. Why do believe THE DEAD rise FIRST”, the TARES are gathered FIRST? Because if one died for all, then were ALL DEAD! (2 Cor 5:14)

    The problem, seems to me, is that you believe these things take place after physical death, even though Jesus said: “I am come to send fire on the earth” and “NOW is the judgment of this world”.

  12. Christine,

    If you admit that God WANTS all men to be saved but claim that NOT ALL men WILL BE saved, then you are claiming that God DOES NOT “work all things according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL” though the scriptures say He does.

    Actually, no. I am not claiming that. God’s plan is perfect and includes everything. But this does not mean we understand it. Nor does it mean that just because God wants something that He will ensure He gets it. Ie, God wants us to not sin, but we still sin.

    You wrote,

    You are claiming that God is not Sovereign or that man’s will trumps God’s will.

    No. I am claiming that the Bible states that God punishes those who choose to sin. I am claiming that God forgives those who repent and turn to Him through faith in Christ. The rest still have the wrath of God upon them. These will suffer the eternal punishment unless they accept Christ before they die.

    It is not by our own will but by THE WILL OF GOD that we are “born again”. To claim that God wants all men to be saved but that not all men are saved it to claim that God works AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.

    I would say it depends on what God’s FULL will is. Just because He desires something does not mean He will make it happen. Ie. men still sin.

    If God wants people who WANT to be with Him and who love Him (and by definition love for God is obedience to God) more than He wants all men to be saved, then He will work to ensure at least some people choose Him. And this is what we see in scripture.

    Can you not see that? Why in the world would God predestinate only A FEW to salvation when His desire is to save ALL?

    Because His desire for people who love Him is stronger than His desire for all men to be saved. If God merely wanted automatons, He would have never had to allow man to sin nor to send His Son to suffer and die to pay the price of our sins.

    Paul did not say that God ‘wants’ all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (but he won’t get want he wants). He said God WILL HAVE all men to be saved… check the Greek

    The word is ‘Thelo’ which means to have in mind OR desire ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/thelo.html ). In almost every place it is translated, it is translated as ‘wish,’ ‘want,’ ‘willing,’ or ‘desire’.

    Eternal life BELONGS TO BELIEVERS, Mr. Moore. And unbelievers abide IN DEATH (everlasting punishment). I never said otherwise.

    You said everyone is saved. But that’s not what scripture states.

    And I have no idea what you think people are sved from if not the effects of judgement.

    I thought you were denying eternal punishment when you said everyone is saved. My mistake. Sorry for misunderstanding. [Note: upon further conversaton with this person, it became evident that she was INDEED denying eternal punishment, by saying eternal ends – Christian universalists will come up with various ideas for being able to reconcile the scriptures with their idea that everyone wlll be save].

    As for “Now”… Yes, we can see judgement began when Christ came into the world.
    John 3:18-20

    18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

    Indeed, it may even be the fact that the nation of Israel was to be punished for denying Christ (with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple).

    These things began (from man’s perspective) when Christ came, and continue forward in time until the final judgment. But we were saved, are being saved, will be saved – past, present, future. But its obvious Satan is not yet in the lake of fire, so it is not yet done (from our perspective). It is complete from God’s perspective because HE is outside of time.

    As for the fire Jesus brought – I think this would be the Holy Spirit.

    Not all these things take place after physical death – but certainly that is when we will answer for what we have and have not done. The only difference is that people who trust in Christ will not suffer judgement for what they have done.

  13. Mr Moore, I believe that you are missing the bigger picture. God may not want us to sin, which is why we are commanded not to sin. But God does want us to gain a knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, he made man subject to vanity UNWILLINGLY (Rom 8:20), giving us an experience of evil, to humble us (Ecc 1:13 CLV). Remember that it was not until after Adam sinned that God said “He is become as one of us, to know good and evil”. God is creating man in His own image and after His own likeness. That is a process that ends when we are conformed into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ, the LAST Adam (not the first Adam/man). So while God does, indeed, punish those who sin, what is the wages of sin? Is it not DEATH? And are not ALL MEN DEAD because ALL HAVE SINNED? That is why we need Christ, is it not? To redeem us FROM SIN AND DEATH… not judgment, for death IS the judgment.

    Eternal life and everlasting punishment happen HERE, IN THE EARTH. That has nothing to do with physical death or what happens to us or where we “go” after we physically die.

    Yes, thelō means:

    1) to will, have in mind, intend
    a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
    b) to desire, to wish
    c) to love
    1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

    But you are still claiming that it doesn’t matter what God wants because He doesn’t always get what he wants because He doesn’t “make it happen”. So what do you believe it means that He works all things according to His own will? (Eph 1:11) Are you claiming that God’s “will” is something other than what God “wants”? What do you think it means when scripture says that God DECLARED the end from the beginning… saying MY COUNSEL shall stand and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE… I have PURPOSED IT and I will DO IT”? (Isa 46:10-11). Was it not God’s PURPOSE in sending Christ to die for the sins OF THE WORLD to SAVE THE WORLD? If so, you are claiming that Jesus failed because God, the Father, cannot overcome the god of this world who is the one responsible for blinding the eyes of those who CANNOT see. You are claiming that Christ is not capable of healing the blind, healing the deaf, healing the lame and raising the dead. Or you are saying that He WON’T.

    As far as judgment goes, how many judgments do you believe there are? And what makes you think that satan has not already been cast into the lake of fire, along with everyone else whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life? It is not the Holy Spirit that brings JUDGMENT? And did not Paul tells us that we HAVE BEEN baptized into Christ, by being baptized into HIS DEATH? That is “the second death”, Mr. Moore. The first death we suffered was due to sin. And the only way to have part in “the first resurrection” is to be found IN CHRIST. and the only way to be found in Christ is to first be baptized into HIS DEATH (= the second death) so that we can also know the power of HIS RESURRECTION (= the first resurrection).

    So, while it is true that only those who walk in the newness of LIFE (HAVING “eternal life”) know the power of His resurrection (having been quickened to life by the spirit of God that abides in them, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead) and all others remain dead in sin. Their life IS HID with Christ in God… UNTIL Christ be formed in them. And when HE (who is our life) shall appear, THEN shall they also appear WITH HIM, in glory (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory). Not all will “go on unto perfection” and inherit “eternal life”, but that doesn’t mean that we have not been saved by the blood of the cross of Christ.

    Jesus Christ is Lord BOTH of the living and the dead. It was for this very purpose that He both died and rose and revived. And whether we live or we die, we live UNTO HIM or we die UNTO HIM, for we are HIS. The road to eternal life is narrow because HE is the Way, HE is the Door. We can only enter in THROUGH HIM, by being found IN HIM and being called by HIS NAME. Just remember that we were quickened together WITH HIM “even when we were dead in sins” BECAUSE God so loved THE WORLD. Even “the dead” are IN CHRIST. So while they may not (yet) HAVE/KNOW LIFE, they have indeed been saved, having b een justified by ONE MAN’S obedience.

    Adam does not have more power to condemn then Christ has power to save.

  14. Christine,

    you wrote,

    But God does want us to gain a knowledge of good and evil.

    But this goes against what God said in Genesis 2:17

    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

    If God wanted us to gain a knowledge of good and evil, why would He tell Adam to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I think scripture and you disagree.

    We are redeemed from the effects of our sin – the first death, so we can be adopted as children of God and inherit the promise.
    Galatians 3:13-14, 22, 4:4-7 (also see Titus 2:14, 1 Peter 1:18)

    13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

    4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

    We are saved from the second death. Turning a sinner from the error of their way would be turning them to God.
    James 5:20

    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

    We are saved to become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
    Titus 3:4-7

    4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

    You WANT everyone to be saved, but that taints your understanding of what scripture clearly teaches. You need to take scripture with scripture, not have an idea and then search for scripture to prove your point. You have stated that everyone will be saved, but that is against what Scripture tells us, where we see that some people refuse to love the truth and so be saved.
    2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

    9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    Further, Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 2:15 that there are people who are being saved and people who are perishing – this indicates not everyone will be saved.

    For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

    To be saved, you must believe in Christ as having paid the price and you must continue to do so or else you believed in vain – or so said Paul.
    1 Corinthians 15:2

    By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    It is obvious Satan has not been cast into the lake of fire yet.
    1 Corinthians 5:5

    hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    2 Corinthians 11:14

    And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

    1 Timothy 5:15

    Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

    The thousand years has not yet stated, so Satan is not yet in prison. If He has not yet been imprisoned, then he certainly has not yet been put in the lake of burning sulfur (which might or might not be the lake of fire).

    It is not until after Satan is judged that the dead will be judged. Notice in verses 14-15 that death, hades, and all whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. ALSO notice in verse 14 that the lake of fire is the second death.

    Revelation 20:1-15

    1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    As for the ‘second death,’ you disagree with scripture (Revelation 20:14), which states it is the lake of fire.

    As for eternal punishment and eternal life, you disagree with scripture yet again.
    Christ gave us eternal redemption.
    Hebrews 9:12

    He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

    Those who obey Christ have eternal salvation.
    Hebrews 5:9

    and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    Those who believe in Christ receive eternal life.
    1 Timothy 1:16

    But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

    If eternal life were only in this physical realm, why would Jesus say He would raise us up at the last day?
    John 6:40

    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    Its evident that the eternal punishment is what happens in the lake of fire, which occurs after judgement – as seen in Revelation 20:11-15.

    We see more in 2 Peter 2:9 and Jude 1:7 where punishment of eternal fire occurs after judgement.

    2 Peter 2:9

    if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

    Jude 1:7

    In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    It is equally evident that eternal life will be with Christ in heaven.
    Philippians 3:14

    I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians 2:6

    And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

    If believers in Christ die (our earthly tent is destroyed), we will go to heaven.
    2 Corinthians 5:1-10

    1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
    6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

    2 Corinthians 5:8

    we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

    As for judgements, I really dont want to get into the multiple various judgements here. But I will say that demons have their judgement, and people have theirs’. Believers’ judgement will not include punishment. Non-believers’ judgement will include eternal punishment. The judgement will occur in heaven and it will be done by Christ (Revelation 20:1-15).

    This is a good article concerning judgement: http://bible.org/article/judgments-past-present-and-future

    What do you think we are saved from?

  15. Mr. Moore,

    Who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and who made in appear pleasant and desirable? God may have commanded them not to eat of it, telling them that if/when they did they would surely die, but that doesn’t mean that their doing so was not part of God’s plan. I still believe that you are missing the bigger picture, as Adam is A FIGURE, as are Eve, Cain, Abel and Seth. In fact, so are the trees! God speaks in parables and all of things that ARE SEEN (that are temporal) reveal to us those things that ARE NOT SEEN (that are eternal).

    We are not saved from the second death we are saved from sin and death ~through~ the second death… by being baptized into Christ (the second man, the Last Adam). It is HIS image that we are being conformed to; HE is “the image of the invisible God”. So when God said; “Let us make man in our image” He was NOT talking about the first Adam (the first, natural, carnal, disobedient man) but about the LAST Adam (the second, spiritual, obedient man).

    So many Christians believe that Adam was perfect and immortal and somehow still sinned and fell, but Adam was A FIGURE, a figure OF HIM who was TO COME.

    The Greek word “aionios” (translated “eternal” and “everlasting”) is the adjective form of the noun “aion” and the Greek word “aion” actually means “an age” (or “ages” in the plural). To “eternal life” (aionios zoe) and “everlasting punishment” (aionios kolasis) or life and punishment connected to THE AGES and are UNSEEN (ie have nothing to do with literal pits of fire, in the case of everlasting punishment or eternal fire). That which is UNSEEN is ETERNAL (aionios). In fact, it is that which is NOT SEEN that we are supposed to be looking upon (2 Cor 4:18) by comparing SPIRITUAL things with SPIRITUAL (1 Cor 2:13). And, by the way, the Greek word “kolasis” (translated “punishment” and “torment”) is a noun derived from the Greek verb “kolazo” which means TO PRUNE.

    1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
    2) to curb, check, restrain
    3) to chastise, correct, punishment
    4) to cause to be punished

    Our Father in heaven’s “punishments” are meant to be CORRECTIVE and REMEDIAL, not punitive.

    Judgment takes place IN THE EARTH, Mr. Moore.

    Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed IN THE EARTH: much more the wicked and the sinner.

    Even into our bosoms:

    Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense INTO THEIR BOSOM,

    The book of Revelation is about the revelation (or revealing) OF JESUS CHRIST and it is Christ IN YOU that is THE HOPE OF GLORY. Paul was waiting for Christ to be formed IN THEM… for our life IS HID with Christ in God and it not until HE (who is our life) APPEARS that we APPEAR WITH HIM IN GLORY. (Col 3:4) This is the manifestation of the sons of God.

    Christ comes the second time UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM. Just remember, though, that the kingdom of God comes NOT with observation because it is WITHIN. (Luke 17:20-21)

    Also consider that “the way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH. (Pro 15:24) And what did Jesus say:

    Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are FROM BENEATH; I am FROM ABOVE: ye are OF THIS WORLD; I am NOT OF THIS WORLD.

    So while there is a “hell” that unbelievers are “punished” in that HELL exists right here, IN THE EARTH! It is a SPIRITUAL truth! Why do you suppose Jesus feet are describes as “fine brass, as if they burn in a furnace”? (Rev 1:15) Or that we are chosen “in the furnace of affliction”? (Isa 48:10) Even Joshua (a figure of Christ) being “a brand plucked out of the fire”? (Zec 3:2) Or why even the Lord is said to lie “even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men”? (Psa 57:4)

    We can either walk IN THE SPIRIT (being in the world but not of this world) and reap LIFE (eternal life) or we can walk in the flesh (and the lust of the flesh and the lusts of this world) and reap corruption (everlasting punishment). For what we sow, so shall we reap.

    Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

  16. Christine,

    Of course the sin of Adam and Eve were in God’s plan. But God ordered them NOT to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This shows that your statement, “God does want us to gain a knowledge of good and evil.” is wrong based upon what the Bible says.

    And yes, Adam is a figure, but He was also the first person. The things written of in the Bible, especially in the historical sections, are of things that actually occurred. Yes, they MAY have a timeless principle we should learn (not all such passages do), but that does not remove them from history. These things happened, whether the language is poetic or not. Do not try to remove the facts of the matter just because you want to spiritualize what God has said happened. The facts are that God TOLD Adam to not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam disobeyed God – which is how mankind learned of the difference of good and evil. Yes, God’s plan includes that. But this shows that God did NOT desire mankind to gain a knowledge of good and evil – simply that He knew it would happen and it was contained in His perfect all-encompassing plan. If God wanted people to gain knowledge of good and evil and then for God to have said to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17) would make God out to be a liar, and we know that God can not lie (Titus 1:2).

    I think you are missing both the details AND the bigger picture. In your efforts to show that God will save everyone, you are denying the truths of the scripture and taking the term eternal out of context to show what you want it to show, rather than its true meaning.

    You wrote,

    The Greek word “aionios” (translated “eternal” and “everlasting”) is the adjective form of the noun “aion” and the Greek word “aion” actually means “an age” (or “ages” in the plural). To “eternal life” (aionios zoe) and “everlasting punishment” (aionios kolasis) or life and punishment connected to THE AGES and are UNSEEN (ie have nothing to do with literal pits of fire, in the case of everlasting punishment or eternal fire).

    First, we have to realize that while Aionios ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aionios.html ) comes from Aion ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aion.html ), this does not mean it means the same thing as Aion. Yes, Aion means

    1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    2. the worlds, universe
    3. period of time, age

    While it means both an unbroken age, it also means eternity (depending on its context). But be that as it may, Aionios means something different:

    1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    2. without beginning
    3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

    As you can see, Aionios is ALWAYS translated to mean forever, eternal, without a beginning and without an end – NOT a long period of time. So we have to be careful of the text to know which term is being used and to know the context of the term in use (especially when we speak of Aion).

    Notice that the term used for eternal in Matthew 25:41 when it refers to eternal fire is Aionios, or forever.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;

    Also notice in the same thing is true of the word translated as eternal in Matthew 25:46 when speaking of eternal punishment and eternal life.

    46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    When speaking of the eternal fire, the eternal punishment and the eternal life, Christ did not say these things would have an end (as might POSSIBLY be the case had he used Aion). No, Christ was clear that the fire, the punishment, and the life in question would ALL be without ending and would last forever – not for a long indeterminate amount of time (for more on eternal, please see these articles: http://carm.org/look-word-aionion , http://carm.org/what-do-greek-dictionaries-say-about-aionion , http://carm.org/look-phrase-forever-and-ever ).

    Since this is the case, when JESUS said in Revelation 20:14 that the lake of fire (the eternal, without ending, fire spoken of in Matthew 25:41) is the second death, he was NOT speaking of being baptized into Christ’s death. No the second death is the without-ending eternal punishment that is AFTER death. If it was supposed to be being baptized into Christ’s death, then John would have not had to write in Revelation 2:11 that “he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.” Also, we see in Revelation 20:6 that the second death has no power over those who take part in the first resurrection (believers in Christ). From THOSE two verses, it is evident that the second death is something that hurts those who do who not overcome (those who do not believe in Christ until they die). Since this is the case, we know it can not be baptism into Christ’s death, which does not hurt and only occurs for believers. So no, the second death is NOT baptism into Christ’s death, but something that hurts those who do not trust in Christ – according to JESUS, it is the lake of fire.
    If you disagree, then you disagree with God and that is something you need to take up with God. I did not write the Bible, I’m merely showing you what it says.

    Revelation 2:11

    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

    Revelation 20:6

    Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the seconddeath has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:14

    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:8

    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    And while some of God’s punishments are corrective and remedial, it is evident from Matthew 25:33-46, and Revelation 20-21, that the second death is intended to be a place of eternal (without ending) torment because the wrath of God was not turned away from those who refused to accept Christ as their savior (John 3:36).

    And since we know that people who do not trust still have the wrath of God upon them and that certain people will be sent into the lake of fire, the second death, we know that not everyone will be saved.

  17. […] Comments wbmoore on Will everyone be saved?Christine on Will everyone be saved?wbmoore on Will everyone be saved?wbmoore on Will some people face punishment or will all […]

  18. Mr Moore,

    God said: “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE”

    And after Adam sinned, God said; “HE IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL”.

    Would you like to explain to me how man could have been created in the image and likeness of God WITHOUT BECOMING AS ONE OF THEM (to know good and evil)?

    Just because God warned Adam about what was going to happen to him if he partook of that tree, doesn’t mean that God did not PLAN for him to do so. God is the one who created it and God is the one who put it in the garden and God is the one who made it desirable… and He also PLANNED for the remedy (that was going to be required).

    Paul was the one who said Adam was A FIGURE. The fact that I repeated it shouldn’t have made you jump to such wild conclusions. But historical figure or not, Adam and Eve (and even Cain, Able and Seth) represent other things (allegorically). Paul understood that, even points it out in his letters (and they are not the only ones).

    As far as “aionios” goes, there is plenty enough information about the meaning and use of that word (on both sides of the argument) for anyone who wants to research it. A simple Google search will probably give you more references than you could ever even get around to reading. But NO ONE disputes the fact that “aion” mean AN AGE and that “aionios” is its adjective. So Jesus did not say use the word “aion” because “aion” is A NOUN. He used THE ADJECTIVE, “aionios”.

    Aionios is THE ADJECTIVE. Life (or punishment) is THE NOUN that the adjective is describing.

    For example, I can say; “The HOUR (noun) has come for the meeting to begin” or I can say; “I wish to have an HOURLY (adjective) MEETING (noun) until this issue is resolved”.

    The meaning of the ROOT WORD (or the noun) does not change just because I used it in it’s ADJECTIVE form. In other words, an “hourly” meeting happens BY THE HOUR. The meaning of the adjective is directly related to meaning of the noun from which it was derived. It doesn’t happen by the minute, or by the year, or by the century, but by THE HOUR. And neither does saying that a meeting will happen “hourly” mean that it will continue “forever”. Though the idea of having a meeting “hourly” leaves it open-ended, it may continue to happen every hour for one day or one year or a century…. or even never end… but that doesn’t make the word “hourly” MEAN “forever”. And neither does “aionios” (the adjective of “aion”, which mean AN AGE) MEAN “forever”.

    But more than that…. take a look at 2 Ti 1:9 which says:

    2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN,

    The words in CAPS are “pro chronos AIONIOS”.

    BEFORE TIMES EONIAN (a more proper English translation, given eon is the English equivalent of “aion” and eonian is its adjective).

    That means that “times/chronos aionios” HAD A BEGINNING, sir. They also have AN END (for the ages COME TO AN END). Therefore, the Greek word “aionios” cannot possibly mean “eternal” as we define that word today.

    And since I have already explained how I see the second death and the lake of fire and given you scripture (which you don’t seem to want to address), I’ll just drop it. You cannot find the truth by pitting scripture against scripture. So if you want to claim that judgment takes place in heaven and ignore the scriptures that I gave you that say otherwise, but just throw out other scriptures that you think I don’t believe or don’t agree with in order to make your point without having to address the scriptures that you are contradicting, then what more can I say?

    • I wanted to address one additional thing that you said. You said, “You cannot find the truth by pitting scripture against scripture.”

      One has to search the scriptures for passages pertaining to any idea one wants to understand God’s word about. If one pulls a scripture out of context, then it is easy to make erroneous conclusions. For this reason, one must read the scriptures en entirety to ensure one understands the context of any given passage.

      One must ensure that EVERY passage dealing with a topic has been read and compared and put together (compared to each other and other passages which might pertain to the subject or a related subject) to come up with a cohesive doctrinal position which takes into account all passages dealing with that given topic.

      One has to ensure one understands the words used in any given passage, or one could come to an erroneous conclusion. One must look at the words used in any given passage (by doing a word study) to ensure you have an understanding of the words involved. This helps one If one does understand what God has said.

      So yes, to find the truth of any given matter in scripture, you MUST “pit scripture against scripture” to find the truth, to ensure you have the whole truth.

      • Often times, while reading God’s word, ideas come to mind from a verse, it IS important to search scripture for everthing that can be found on that subject, BEFORE coming to a conclusion. If something is found on that topic that shows disagreement, then “your” idea is probably just that, an “idea”..not enlightenment by the Holy Spirit. Even if MOST other verses line up with the idea, the ones that are in disagreement can not be ignored or the REAL meaning reinterpreted to be support the new idea. So many times, people get an idea from what they read and automatically assume because they are reading the Bible, it came from God, and are often mistaken.

  19. Would you like to explain to me how man could have been created in the image and likeness of God WITHOUT BECOMING AS ONE OF THEM (to know good and evil)?

    My children look like me (have my image and likeness), but they do not have my knowledge nor my abilities. God made us with the capability to choose, but God ORDERED Adam to NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So your words are in contradiction with scripture – AGAIN.

    Yes, God’s plan included the fact that Adam would sin and the remedy for that (sending His One and Only Son to be born a human, life a perfect sinless life, suffer and die to pay the price for our sins). But God ORDERED Adam to not do something. God did NOT want Adam to do it. If you believe otherwise, then you are saying God lied. And that would again show you in contradiction with the scripture.

    You are like the gnostics who wanted to understand everything allegorically and think that there’s hidden knowledge that only you know. But the best way to read scripture is to take it at face value if possible. You can twist it to make it say anything you want (and it appears you have done that, to try to say everyone will be saved and that eternal punishment and life are only here in this life), but that is something we should not do. To study scripture correctly, we should compare scripture with scripture and take scripture in context and take it at face value if possible.

    You can try to redefine the word Aionios all you want, but it still does not change the fact that it means without beginning and without ending, forever. To try to ignore its meaning and go back to the root word is disingenuous. The word ‘timely’ has the root word ‘time’. ‘time’ means (among other things) “the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another, ” ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/time ). However, the adjective, “timely” means ‘occurring at a suitable time; seasonable; opportune; well-timed: a timely warning” ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/timely ). These are two very different things indeed, yet the adjective comes from the root word.

    No, Aionios means what it means and it does not mean an age. It means “without end, never to cease, everlasting.” This is what Jesus said when speaking of the eternal fire, the eternal punishment, and the eternal life. These things would be forever, without end – not just for an age. You dont like that truth, so you try to ignore it and go to a root word usage – but that is not the word that GOD used. Quit ignoring what God has said!

    You claim

    Judgment takes place IN THE EARTH

    And then you quote scripture that seems to show your point. But you have ignored so many other scriptures which shows you have not done a complete study or have ignored (purposefully or not) scripture which contradicts your idea.

    As I said, there are multiple judgements. But ultimately, mankind will be judged on judgement day (after their physical deaths, as is evident from Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:13) by Jesus sitting on the great white throne. We have no idea where that great white throne is, but its not likely to be on earth, as the earth and heavens fled from Christ’s presence.

    2 Timothy 4:1

    In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge

    2 Timothy 4:8

    Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    Hebrews 9:27

    Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    2 Peter 2:4

    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

    2 Peter 2:9

    if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

    2 Peter 3:7

    By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

    Revelation 20:11-15

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    You want to allegorize or take out of context scripture to show your points. I am not contradictiing scripture. I am contradicting your use of that scripture to show your point. To make doctrinal statements, you have to take all scripture into account, and you have failed to do so.

    I have shown you a variety of scripture which shows that the lake of fire is the second death – this directly contradicts the idea that the second death is not the lake of fire and is not punishment for those who do not have faith in Christ. Its very direct and straightforward, with no need to ignore or warp any scripture. It may not fit your man-made ideas, but that’s God for ya! But you choose to ignore what God has said.

    I have shown where you are mistaken about the idea of eternal only being here on earth. but you choose to ignore that and try to confuse the issue instead of accept what God has said.

    I have shown you where not everyone will be saved, only those who obey Christ (by trusting Him). This directly contradicts your desire of everyone being saved. But you ignored it.

    I have shown you scripture which shows people are judged for what they did in life and the unrighteous are punished. You dont like that idea, so you ignore it.

    You can ignore scripture all you want, but God and you are not in agreement about a LOT of things, but especially universal salvation, judgement, eternal life, eternal punishment, and eternal fire.

  20. Mr Moore, It wasn’t me who said “He is become as one of us”. It was GOD who said that. Image and likeness have nothing to do with our PHYSICAL appearance. GOD IS SPIRIT AND INVISIBLE!! And commanding someone not to do something that you know he is going to do anyway IS NOT LYING? Do you “lie” when you tell your children not to do something knowing that they are probably going to do it anyway? Well, there was no “probably” with Adam. God KNEW He was going to sin because it was GOD who made him SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY. And it was GOD who put that tree in the garden AND MADE IT DESIRABLE.

    I never claimed that the scriptures are only meant to be understood allegorical, yet this is the second time you have accused me of believing that. (And it’s not the only false accusation that you have made against me.) Nor have I ever claimed to have some special hidden knowledge that no one else has. But if you believe that the scriptures do not speak allegorically about spiritual truths, then you are the one who doesn’t believe the scriptures.
    Nor do I know a single Christian who doesn’t know or understand how at least some of the stories of bible have an allegorical meaning hidden within them. Some of them are even pointed out in the NT by Paul.

    So you can accuse me of being a gnostic if that makes you feel better about yourself or it helps you justify your name-calling and false accusation, but I am not gnostic.

    You can also accuse me of being disingenuous, even though I am not the one who defined the word “aion”… nor the one who determined that “aionios” it is adjective. I also never said that “aionios” means “an age”. So, ONCE AGAIN, you accuse me of having said something that I never said. But let us examine your argument about the relationship between the noun “time” and the adjective “timely”, you claim that have “two very different meanings”.

    According to the definition provide by the link THAT YOU PROVIDED, the definition of the adjective “timely” means:

    “occurring at a suitable TIME; SEASONable; opportune; well-TIMED: a TIMEly warning.

    Can you now demonstrate how the meaning of the adjective (timely) has nothing to do with the meaning of the noun (time) when the very noun from which it is derived is part of the definition of the adjective?

    You can’t!! Because the meaning of the adjective is tied to the meaning of the noun!

    Even in the definition of “time” under “adjective” (in your link) it says:

    “of, pertaining to, or showing the passage OF TIME.”

    Which is EXACTLY what I said about the relationship between the noun “aion” and its adjective “aionios”. That the meaning of the adjective PERTAINS TO the meaning of the noun. I even gave you the example of “hour” and “hourly”. The same is true for week, weekly, year/yearly, month/monthly, AND time/timely.

    I hope you realize that you just proved my point!!

    I did not “claim” that judgment takes place in the earth. I, as you pointed out yourself, gave you the verse (and that is not the only one). You claim that “there are multiple judgments” and give NO VERSE. Can you give me even one passage of scripture that says “there are multiple judgments”?

    You claim the “final judgment” is made before the great white throne on judgment day and that, while we have no idea where the great white throne is, it’s not likely to be on earth.

    Well, first of all, we do know where the throne is because scripture tells us: “behold, a throne was set IN HEAVEN”. Secondly, I never claimed that the great white throne was in the earth. I said WE ARE RECOMPENSED (judged) IN THE EARTH. (And let me be clear, I said IN the earth, not ON the earth.)

    Now since we know the great white throne is “set in heaven” but His judgments are “in the earth” (here are a few more verses)

    1Ch 16:14 He is the LORD our God; his judgments are IN THE EARTH.

    Psa 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are IN ALL THE EARTH.

    Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

    I would be curious to know where you think that throne (said to be “set in heaven”) is in relation to the lake of fire (His judgments being “in the earth”), since John sees BOTH in his vision recorded in the book of Revelation? And given the fact that Jesus said the kingdom of God comes not with observation but is WITHIN. And it is Christ IN YOU, that is the hope of glory?

    Now we come to the point where I should probably address each and every scripture that you posted and accuse me of ignoring. but what would be the point if you aren’t willing to recognize the difference between ignorance and disagreement?

    It seems to me that you think it’s ok to claim that you take “all scripture” into consideration but to just assume (and accuse) anyone who might disagree with you, as to interpretation, failed to do so.

    It seems to me that you also think it’s ok to accuse me of twisting and manipulating the scriptures to make them say whatever I want them to, even though you are the one twisting and manipulating alot of what I have said in order to accuse me of saying things that I never said and justify calling me names as you disagree with me.

    Well, that dog ain’t gonna hunt. I’m not “ignoring” something just because my interpretation contradicts yours. And why should I even begin to think that perhaps your knowledge and/or understanding of the scriptures is so much better than mine when you are the one who said: “We have no idea where that great white throne is”?

    You say:

    “I have shown you a variety of scripture which shows that the lake of fire is the second death – this directly contradicts the idea that the second death is not the lake of fire and is not punishment for those who do not have faith in Christ.”

    Which only proves that you see/hear only what you want to see/hear. I have already corrected you on this once before, so why do you continue to accuse of having said things THAT I NEVER SAID?

    I absolutely believe that being cast into the lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH.

    I have never said otherwise!!

    I also absolutely believe that it IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST.

    I have never said otherwise!!

    You accuse me of ignoring the scriptures and of ignoring what God said, but you don’t even know WHAT I SAID. ???

    If you want me to address each of the passages you listed, I will. If you want to discuss them and actually listen to my answers instead of changing them. But if we never make it that far, i would like to ask you to go back and re-read Heb 9:27.. but start with at least verse 24 and note that it is the death OF JESUS CHRIST (on the cross) that is the author is talking about when he said “but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT”. That happened (in this physical realm) approximately 2000 years ago (just prior to which Jesus said; “I am come to send fire on the earth” and “now is the judgment of this world”). And, as I already pointed out, judgment takes place “in the earth”. (Also remember that the earth IS HIS FOOTSTOOL and HIS FEET are “as fine brass as if they burn in a furnace”.)

    You’ve not even attempted to address any of those things. You simply bring up other scriptures to pit them against mine while you accuse ME of being the one ignoring them and not taking them ALL into consideration.

  21. I am finding it difficult to communicate with you because you seem to define terms differently than orthodox Christianity.

    You wrote,

    “Would you like to explain to me how man could have been created in the image and likeness of God WITHOUT BECOMING AS ONE OF THEM (to know good and evil)?”

    My example was not a perfect one, but I showed you how children are in the image/likeness without the knowledge. The same is true for God and Adam – Adam was like God in various attributes, but did NOT have knowledge of good and evil. He didn’t need that knowledge to be like God. We know this because God had ALREADY made Adam and Eve in the likeness of Himself, WITHOUT them knowing good and evil before He told Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    Genesis 1:27

    “ 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.”

    We also know that God did not want Adam to have knowledge of good and evil, because God told Adam to not eat of that tree
    Genesis 2:16-17

    16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    To believe that God wanted Adam to have knowledge of good and evil is to ignore the fact that God told Adam to not eat of it. You confuse the fact that God knew what would happen with the idea that God wanted it to happen.

    If God put the tree there and told them NOT to do it, when in reality, He WANTED them to, it would make God a liar or deceitful. I think another way of looking at it would be that it would make God a TEMPTER. And His Word is very clear that HE will not TEMPT, but will test. It would be like putting an open candy bar on the table and telling your children, “you can not eat that candy bar.” What God did was put many desirable trees for them (Genesis 2:9) and told them they could have any of them except THAT ONE!! So it would be like you putting many candy bars in front of children and saying, “you can have any of these candy bars, except that one, it is reserved for me”. If it had not been reserved for God, then He would not have commanded Adam to not eat of it.

    You seem to takeverses out of context and so far from the realm of orthodoxy that its scary. It is because of this and the way you present your beliefs that gives the appearance that you think you have hidden knowledge, prompting my comment about the “Gnostics.” And, you keep mentioning that Adam was a “figure” and when you speak of the rich man and Lazarus you said, “This is not about two literal men and it’s not about not about physical death,” which shows you believe that parable to be strictly allegorical. In the parable of the tares and wheat, Jesus gives a very clear explanation of what is meant (Matthew 13:36-43) and yet, you contend, “The separation of the sheep from the goats is the same as the separation of the wheat from the tares. These are parables and they about the dividing of the spirit from the flesh.” Again showing a strictly allegorical reading. A simple reading of both parables tell you what CHRIST said were the sheep and the goats, and the wheat and the tares – and it had NOTHING to do with the spirit and flesh, but everything to do with righteous and unrighteous people. Christ even EXPLAINED the parable, yet you see it as separating the spirit from the flesh. It is YOU who sees what you want and not what scripture is clear about, and once again, allegory is added to scripture that was clearly explained. I didn’t say you believe “that scripture is only meant to be understood allegorically.” I said, “You are like the gnostics who wanted to understand everything allegorically and think that there’s hidden knowledge that only you know.” There is a big difference. Some scriptures speak allegorically only, some speak only literally, some both.

    To be exact, I am including two quotes you made about Aionios:

    “The Greek word “aionios” (translated “eternal” and “everlasting”) is the adjective form of the noun “aion” and the Greek word “aion” actually means “an age” (or “ages” in the plural). To “eternal life” (aionios zoe) and “everlasting punishment” (aionios kolasis) or life and punishment connected to THE AGES and are UNSEEN (ie have nothing to do with literal pits of fire, in the case of everlasting punishment or eternal fire). “

    and

    “The meaning of the ROOT WORD (or the noun) does not change just because I used it in it’s ADJECTIVE form. In other words, an “hourly” meeting happens BY THE HOUR. The meaning of the adjective is directly related to meaning of the noun from which it was derived. It doesn’t happen by the minute, or by the year, or by the century, but by THE HOUR. And neither does saying that a meeting will happen “hourly” mean that it will continue “forever”. Though the idea of having a meeting “hourly” leaves it open-ended, it may continue to happen every hour for one day or one year or a century…. or even never end… but that doesn’t make the word “hourly” MEAN “forever”. And neither does “aionios” (the adjective of “aion”, which mean AN AGE) MEAN “forever”.

    Because you wanted to remove the word ‘aionios’ and replace it with ‘aion’, I responsed with , “No, Aionios means what it means and it does not mean an age. It means “without end, never to cease, everlasting.” This is what Jesus said when speaking of the eternal fire, the eternal punishment, and the eternal life. These things would be forever, without end – not just for an age. You dont like that truth, so you try to ignore it and go to a root word usage – but that is not the word that GOD used. “ I did not say, “you said aionios is an age.” I said you are dropping the actual word used by God and replacing it with the root word. My point with time and timely is that while there is a relationship (one pertains to the other), they mean two very different things and you can not remove the word timely and replace with the word time and have the message be the same. But this is what you are trying to do when you ignore aionios (which is the word used by God in those verses) and replace it with aion. To ignore the word God used and replace it with its root word (which while there is a relation, means something else), is to be disingenuous. By doing that, you are trying to make scripture say something it does not say. Further more, in your explanation of 2 Timothy 1:9, the greek Chronos Aionios let’s look at what the words say, not change them to “BEFORE TIMES EONIAN (a more proper English translation, given eon is the English equivalent of “aion” and eonian is its adjective)” The word CHRONOS in greek means “all” and pertains to time, and we have already established that “aionios” means without beginning or end. Therefore “all eternity” in 2 Timothy 1:9 (Chronos aionios) would mean all time without beginning or end. The orthodox definition of “all eternity.”
    ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aionios.html ). Aionios is the word used for eternal when discussing eternal punishment and eternal life (in Matthew 25:4), the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11); the eternal glory in Christ (1 Peter 5:10 ); the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7); Christ is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him (hebrews 5:9); eternal judgement (hebrews 6:2); eternal redemption (hebrews 9:12); the eternal Spirit (Holy Spirit) and the eternal inheritance ( hebrews 9:14-15); the eternal covenant (Hebrews 13:20); eternal destruction ( 2 thessalonians 1:9); and the difference between things which are temporal and eternal (2 Corinthians 4:17-18); but perhaps most telling – the eternal God (romans 16:26). In every case, the world for eternal is ‘aionios’, NOT ‘aion’ (age).

    As for eternal life, again, I recommend you read “Three Modes of Eternal Life” (http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar74.htm ). But the summary of it is: “The first mode of possessing the gift of eternal life is in this present mortal life here on earth, but we experience it only by faith. The second mode or manner that the same gift of eternal life is experienced is from our death until the end of the world as our souls are in heaven before God while our bodies lie in the graves. The third mode will commence at the resurrection of our bodies when in body and soul we will live forever with God in the new heaven and earth. However, there are not three different eternal lives, for it is the same life that is received and experienced in three ways, three modes. ”

    You just now wrote,

    I did not “claim” that judgment takes place in the earth.

    But if you will look at your own comment January 6, 2011 at 10:37 am ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8738 ), you will see that is exactly what you said.

    As for giving scripture concerning judgements, I gave a link with a great deal of scripture concerning various judgments. There are numerous examples of judgment here on earth – such as:
    • God’s judgement upon Adam (Genesis 3),
    • His judgement upon the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12),
    • God;s judgement on Ahaziah for sending messengers to consult Baal-Zebub the god of Ekron instead of God Himself (2 Kings 1).
    • “His judgements are in all the earth” (1 Chronicles 16:11-14).
    • God judged the Israelites in the wilderness (Ezekiel 20:36).
    • God judges and forgives (2 Chronicles 6:18-25).
    • And yet, while God judges, He has YET to judge the earth (Psalm 96:13).
    • Yet God WILL judge the righteous and the wicked at the time of judgement (Ecclesiastes 3:17).
    • In fact, there is a time of judgement set, the day of judgement (Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:22-24).
    • In fact, scripture says everyone will give an account on judgement day (Matthew 12:36).
    • Jesus said that now is the time for judgement on this world and satan will be driven out (John 12:31).
    • Satan is condemned (John 16:11).
    • Even so, it is evident that the day of judgement has not yet occurred, because He has set a day when HE will judge the world (Acts 17:31).
    • In fact, Luke was clear that Paul spoke to Felix about the judgement that was to come (Acts 24:25).
    • People who are unrepentant store up wrath against them for the day of God’s wrath, when His righteous judgement will be revealed (Romans 2:5).
    • 1 Corinthians 11:32 shows that believers are judged as we move through this world so we can be disciplined, rather than be condemned at the end: “Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.”
    • More evidence that the day of judgement has not yet occurred is found in Romans 2:12 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.”
    • Even more evidence the judgement has not yet occurred: 2 Timothy 4:1 “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge”….
    • In Hebrews 6:2, we see the word ‘Aionios’ in discussing the eternal judgement.
    • Peter said in 1 Peter 4:17 that it is time for judgement to begin with God’s household.
    • Yet even so, that was no speaking of the day of judgement, as the unrighteous will be held for punishment on the day of judgement (2 Peter 2:9).
    • The day of judgement is when Christ sits upon the great white throne and judges those who were not part of the first resurrection (which according to Revelation 20:4-6 is when the the martyrs for Christ are brought to life to reign with Christ).
    But as much as I wrote here on the issue, I still suggest reading the following article (http://bible.org/article/judgments-past-present-and-future ).

    While it is possible that the throne spoken of as being in heaven (in Revelation 4:2) is the great white throne where Jesus judges (in Revelation 20:11), it may not be. It would be conjecture to say it is. Many verses in Revelation speaks of thrones (approx. 40-45 mentions of it can be found in Revelation) and in those verses we see the throne of God, the throne of satan, the throne of the Son, the thrones of the 24 elders, throne of the beast, thrones of those given the authority to judge. Also, we see a verse pertaining to Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb (who is Christ) so this particular throne is not likely be the Great White Throne. But we know that heaven and earth fled and that the great white throne is where Jesus will judge. The question that this brings up is whether the heavens includes the third heaven or not, considering the heaven which fled did not include the heaven where the throne was and if the throne mentioned in Rev. 4:2 is the great white throne. This is why I said we do not know where the great white throne is. But if it IS in heaven, then it is not on earth. So the final judgement does not occur on earth or in earth. Yes, God judged and judges in the earth (Adam, Egypt, Israel, etc), but these are not the final judgement, which is what is discussed in Revelation 20. And now we have an apparent contradiction between two different things you have said: you said the final judgement (with the great white throne) is in heaven, yet you said judgement takes place in the earth.

    Scripture does not tell us where the lake of fire is.

    Jesus said the kingdom of God was not to be looked for with signs to be observed, as it was in was in the midst of the Pharisees (Luke 17:20-21). Paul tells us in Romans 14:17 “for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:21). We know from 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. But no where do I see that the kingdom of God is “WITHIN” (as you wrote). Where did you see that?

    I said you are not taking all scripture into account because it appeared you ignored the references to the second death being the lake of fire when you said “one must pass through “the second death” (by being baptized INTO CHRIST, even into HIS DEATH = THE SECOND DEATH) before they can even come to know the power of HIS RESURRECTION (= the FIRST RESURRECTION).” ( http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2010/12/31/predestination-is-in-the-bible-predestined-foreknowledge-is-not/#comment-41737 ). The equals sign indicates equivalence. That certainly gives the appearance that you think that either baptism into Christ or Christ’s death is the second death. And that would contradict what scripture said about the second death being the lake of fire.

    You said, “one must pass through the second death before coming to know the power of His resurrection.”
    Now you are saying that you believe the lake of fire is “THE PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST.” Earlier you wrote it was being baptized into Christ. You also wrote, “Our Father in heaven’s “punishments” are meant to be CORRECTIVE and REMEDIAL, not punitive.” Yet, Anyone whose name is not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20) and that is punitive because people will either have eternal life (because they were saved from the results of judgement because of faith in Christ) or they will have eternal death (and remember, that eternal has no end). People who do not obey God have no faith and so are sent to the lake of fire. I do not understand how someone can claim punishment is not punitive. You dont believe that the second death is punitive, but that it is meant to be corrective. The problem with that is that punishment MEANS it is punitive. Discipline is not punitive. Punishment IS punitive.

    You said “HIS RESURRECTION (= the FIRST RESURRECTION).” but this contradicts scripture.

    Revelation 20:4-6

    4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    According to John, the first resurrection is when the martyred come to life.

    I have not twisted what you said. I have quoted you. I may have misunderstood you, and given your not being willing to use aionios (as without end) and wanting to replace it with aion (an age), its no wonder.

    You are free to disagree with my understanding of scripture, as you have already, but your interpretation is not just wrong, but blatantly contradicts scripture. I do not pretend to be all knowing or have every interpretation correct, however; I use ALL SCRIPTURE to interpret what God has said and not pull one out here and there to prove the point I want to make. I find in studying God’s Word as a whole, it offers growth and more understanding through His Spirit.

    You believe everyone will be saved. But that contradicts scripture, as I have already pointed out in previous posts.

    It is evident you have your own way of thinking and form of communication. It appears to me that in your explanations, scripture is misused and words are substituted (aion for aionios). So I’m sure I could not understand you unless God Himself interpreted.

    Really,I dont care if you accept what I have to say. I just was trying to correct your obvious confusion of scripture and hermenuetical slaughter. Go ahead, feel free to continue in confusion without realizing it.

    I just dont want others to be end up being confused by what you say. Scripture is clear that God is NOT the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints). And you are probably the most confusing person I have had the task of communicating with – which is saying a lot.

    I have not seen a need to refute every verse you present, when presenting a few additional verses show that your interpretation ignores scripture. We are to ignore “hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 2:8). We are also told in 2 Timothy 2:14-15

    14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

    And we see in 2 Timothy 2:23-26:

    23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

    As a teacher and preacher of God’s Word, I have an obligation to those who read my blog to offer no quarrel or confusion, but to teach God’s word – teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God has called me to teach in Truth and I have been convicted to use the whole of Scripture and that is what I will continue to do.

  22. When you speak of children being “in the image/likeness of” their fathers, you can only be referring to a PHYSICAL image, Mr. Moore. So how can that be even a fairly good example, even if “not perfect”, of how MAN “was created in the image and likeness” OF GOD, when God IS SPIRIT? What “attributes” OF GOD’S does MAN “have” that are “in his image and likeness”, if it has nothing to do with his knowledge? Are our ARMS like God’s? Do we have HIS EYES? Do we have the same color HAIR? Is God tall? Short? Skinny? Fat? What color is God’s SKIN?

    If we don’t have A KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL then how do we KNOW what is “good” and what is “evil”? Do you not teach your children the difference between right and wrong because you want them to KNOW the difference AND CHOOSE “the good”? Do you not TELL your children what the consequences will be for making the “wrong” choice, even BEFORE they are presented with those choices, simply because you ALREADY KNOW (from EXPEREINCE) that they will be presented with those choices and the choices that they make will be followed by consequences? And, though you TELL THEM what the consequences will be for the choices they make, do you actually expect them to UNDERSTAND the impact of those consequences before they have ever even EXPERIENCED them for themselves?

    What happens if we don’t “educate” our children by teaching them the difference between right and wrong and by telling them what the consequences of evil are? Will NOT telling them (keeping them ignorant) keep them from ever making a bad choice? Will their lack of knowledge somehow make “any choice” that they make a “good” one?

    Adam HAD ACCESS to the tree (that God created) because GOD GAVE HIM ACCESS. And Adam, NOT KNOWING the difference between good and evil, DID NOT KNOW what would happen to him if he ate of that tree. BUT GOD KNEW! So God COMMANDED Adam NOT TO EAT of that tree and WARNED ADAM about what would HAPPEN to him IF HE DID.

    Sound familiar? Is that not how we teach our own children?

    We LEARN from “experience”, Mr. Moore. Despite all the effort our parents go to to TEACH us the difference between right and wrong (good and evil) we do not KNOW the difference until we actually start making DECISIONS OF OUR OWN and EXPERIENCE the “consequences” of the choices we make (whether good OR bad). As parents, we hope that our GUIDANCE AND ADVICE (given from OUR OWN EXPERIENCE) will help our children GROW into mature, responsible adults, like (hopefully) we did. And if/when they DO, they have the SAME KNOWLEDGE (OF GOOD AND EVIL) AND EXPERIENCE that we have. Then are they truly “made in our image”. They MORE THAN “look” like us.

    So it’s not me who is “confused” Mr. Moore. You want to claim that God not only CREATED a tree that HE KNEW would KILL HIS CHILDREN if they partook of it, He MADE IT DESIRABLE and then planted it in the garden with all the other trees that He created FOR THEM TO EAT FROM. And this He did KNOWIING that they would eat from it, even after He told them NOT TO.

    Some “test”!! Is that how you would “test” your children?

    We’re not talking chocolate candy bars here. We’re talking about THE LIVES OF CHILDREN (GOD’S CHILDREN) WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

    What kind of “loving parent” would put POISON in a candy bar (THEY MADE), make sure that that candy bar LOOKS DESIRABLE TO THEIR CHILD (who DOESN’T EVEN know the difference between good and evil / right and wrong), then PUTS IT IN FRONT OF THEM (mixed in with a bunch of other candy that they CAN EAT), and then says, Here! You can eat all of this candy you want, JUST DON’T EAT “that one” OR YOU WILL DIE?

    That is what you are saying God did, Mr. Moore!!

    And no, God does not tempt (peirazō) anyone, we are tempted BY OUR OWN LUSTS.

    Eve SAW that the tree was pleasant to the eyes (THE LUST OF THE EYES), good for food (THE LUST OF THE FLESH) and desirable to make one wise (THE PRIDE OF LIFE) and she ACTED on her OWN “lusts”. (peirazō MEANS “to try” or “to attempt:).

    Eve did not “try” to eat from the tree because God moved her to do so. She caved to HER OWN LUSTS. The same way that we cave to our own lust when we sin. God commands us NOT TO SIN, He doesn’t move us TO SIN.

    But God DID create the tree and plant it in the garden and make it desirable. Why would He do such a thing KNOWING THAT IT WOULD KILL HIS CHILDREN? KNWOING that they were GOING TO EAT FROM IT AND DIE?

    Much as you seem to hate parables or allegories (perhaps, anything “spiritual”) could it be that “the tree” (of the knowledge of good and evil) IS NOT REALLY “a tree”?

    The “tree” of the knowledge of good and evil IS NOT A TREE!! Neither is the tree of life. THE TREE OF LIFE = CHRIST (and you can argue with that if you want, but I don’t know a single Christian who doesn’t KNOW THAT). And THE TREE OF THE KoG&E = THE LAW.

    It is our LUSTS (the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life) that give rise to sin and sin, WHEN IT IS FINSIHED, brings forth DEATH (as the “wages” OF SIN is DEATH). When we partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (THE LAW) WE DIE!!

    The sting of death IS SIN and the strength of sin IS THE LAW.

    Again, though you hate allegories…

    The Adam (male and female) in Genesis 1 is not the same Adam (formed out of the dust of the ground) in Genesis 2. The “Adam” in Genesis 1 is a “THEM” (male AND female). It is ADAM AND EVE (joined together as ONE FLESH).

    It is CHRIST AND THE CHURCH.

    Why do you think Paul used Adam and Eve (and/or the husband/wife relationship) to teach us SPIRITUAL TRUTHS about “Christ and the church”?

    Speaking of allegories… and PARABLES… you claim that because I say something is “a parable” that I must mean that something is meant to be understood “only allegorically”. That is not true, it depend on the parable. Jesus told “stories” that were PARABLES. But there are also people and events that took place in the Bible that are “parabolic” (or “allegorical”). The fact that Sarah and Hagar speak “allegorically” of TWO COVENANTS doesn’t mean that Sarah and Hagar didn’t exist. By the same token, just because Jesus spoke of “a certain man” IN A PARABLE doesn’t mean that is talking about “a real man”. And the story of Lazarus and the rich man appears IN A SERIES OF PARABLES, starting with the parable of THE LOST SHEEP.

    Now we know that Jesus is just telling a story here, right? And not only is he not talking about an actual “sheep” that was lost, that “sheep” REPRESENTS “something else” (A CHILD OF GOD), right? So why then does this “certain rich man” have to be a real man who existed and who went to hell to be tormented, Mr. Moore? Why did he “go to hell”? Just for being rich? Did the poor man (Lazarus) “go to heaven” just because he was poor? Why do we care how they were dressed and what they were doing? How is that relevant to the story of heaven and hell if what gets on it “into heaven” is FAITH and what sends one to hell is a LACK OF FAITH? Where did “Lazarus” exhibit ANY “faith” in the story? And wasn’t it the “certain rich man” who called ABRAHAM “father”? Who is ABRAHAM “the father” OF?

    You say yourself that the sheep and the goats and the wheat and the tares REPRESENT OTHER THINGS (PEOPLE). But you have a problem with me not taking other things “literally”? Why? Just because they are things that YOU “take literally”?

    You say “Christ explained the parables”. YES HE DID!! Some of them, but not all of them. Christ never explain how Sarah and Hagar REPRESENTED “two covenants”. Paul received that BY REVELATION!

    So let us consider “the wheat” and “the tares”. Jesus said that the good seed (WHEAT) “are the children OF THE KINGDOM” and that the bad seed (TARES) “are the children OF THE WICKED ONE”. Right?

    WHERE IS “the kingdom of God” and what do we have to be BORN OF AND WALKING IN in order to enter into it, Mr. Moore? Is it not THE SPIRIT?

    WHAT are “the children of the wicked one” BORN OF and WALKING IN? Is it not THE FLESH?

    So, YES, A MAN can be walking IN THE SPIRIT (WHEAT) or he can be walking IN THE FLESH (TARE). He can also PASS from one to the other!! So you are missing the point!!

    You say: “you wanted to remove the word ‘aionios’ and replace it with ‘aion’”. THAT IS A LIE, Mr. Moore. I never exchanged one word for the other. I simply said that the meaning of the adjective (aionios) IS RELATED TO the meaning of the noun from which is was derived (aion) and pointed out the fact that the meaning OF THE NOUN (aion) is “AN AGE”. I pointed out the same thing you did with regard to “time” and “timely” and you can’t even see it.

    You say: “You dont like that truth, so you try to ignore it and go to a root word usage – but that is not the word that GOD used.”

    Jesus DID NOT speak ENGLISH, Mr. Moore. He did NOT actually say “eternal life” or “eternal punishment” or “eternal fire”. The GREEK WORD “aionios” and the HEBREW WORD “olam” DO NOT MEAN “forever” or “without ceasing”. They may men INDEFINITE or PERPETUAL (wherein “the end” may not be KNOWN) but that doesn’t mean that they mean there is “no end”.

    The laws given to Israel through Moses were to be FOR AN EVERLASTING (olam/aionios) COVENANT. That Covenant ENDED when the NEW COVENANT was made. Sodom suffered the vengeance “of eternal fire” yet Sodom WILL RETURN TO HER FORMER ESTATE. Do you need more examples from scripture where things were called “eternal” or “everlasting” BUT CAME TO AN END? There are many!

    You accuse me of trying to make the scriptures say what I want by changing the mean of words and yet you are now trying to claim that “chronos” means “all” (care to provide a source?) and pertains to time so “chronos aionios” in 2 Tim 1:9 would mean “all time without beginning or end” or “all eternity”. Well, let’s just say for one second that “chronos aionios” does means “all time without beginning or end” or “all eternity”. The Greek word “pro” means BEFORE. So you are claiming that Paul said that we were called with a holy calling BEFORE “all eternity”? Really?

    You are also claiming that when Paul said (in Tts 1:2) that God promised us “aionios zoe” (aiōniou zōēs = eternal life) “pro chronos aionios” that Paul was claiming that God promised us “eternal life” BEFORE “all eternity”?

    Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before (pro) the world began (chronos aionios);

    Why translate “chronos aionios” AGES or WORLD if it really means “all eternity”? Does it even make sense to say that God promised us “eternal life” BEFORE “all eternity began”?

    God promised us AIONIOS ZOE ~BEFORE~ TIMES AIONIOS ~BEGAN~

    Those “times” HAD A BEGINNING and it is DURING THEM that we live this “life”. The adjective “aionios” is modifying or describing the noun “zoe”. Much as the adjective “blue” is modifying or describing the noun “car” in the sentence: “I own a blue car.” Much like the adjective “annual” is modifying or describing the noun “meeting” in the sentence: “Please schedule an annual meeting to review our progress.” Much like the adjective “timely” is modifying or describing the noun “comment” in the sentence: “All of the student took notice of the teacher’s timely comment.”

    Eternal Life is the life we have NOW (during the AGES, during the “chronos anioios”) as believers. No, it doesn’t “end” when we die because we have also “put on” IMMORTALITY.

    As far as “judgments” go, I was not asking you to list a bunch of “judgments” that God has executed against people. I know that “His judgments” (PLURAL) are poured out into the earth. That is not what I asked you about. It doesn’t seem as though you have understood much of anything that I have said. You put the onus of that on me….. my being so “confused” and “disingenuous” and all (even though you are perfectly willing to ignore the word “pro” in order to make “chronos aionios” mean “all eternity” , which would make “PRO chronos aionios” mean “before all eternity”, which makes no sense).

    You want to claim that I am the one who doesn’t know what “eternal” means and even throw up a bunch of phrased from scripture that contain the word, but will ignore all of the verses that contain the word, but refer to things THAT COME TO AN END. You even included “everlasting covenant” in your list and ignore the fact that even the OLD COVENANT was called “an everlasting covenant”. It BEGAN with Moses and it ENDED with Christ.

    Even the priesthood that Aaron was called “an everlasting priesthood”. They BEGAN with Moses/Aaron under the law and ENDED with Christ and the Melchizedek Priesthood. The animal sacrifices that the Priests of the tribe of Levi were to perform in the temples under the Law (OC) to atone for the sins of the people were called “an everlasting statute”. Again, they BEGAN with Moses and ENDED with Christ.

    Neither the Hebrew word “olam” or the Greek word “aionios” (they are equivalents) means “eternal” or “everlasting” in the sense that that which they describe/modify have “no beginning” and/or “no end”. As you can see, they can have BOTH.

    But there is no sense in spending time arguing over this if all you are going to do is continue accusing me of disingenuous because you can’t grasp what I am saying and are unwilling to consider anything other than the “traditional” understanding of scripture. And I don’t suppose that it would do any good to inform you that for the first 500 years of the church the doctrine of “apokastasis” (the salvation of all men) was the predominate teaching/belief? (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – it’s available online if you want to check it.)

    • When you speak of children being “in the image/likeness of” their fathers, you can only be referring to a PHYSICAL image, Mr. Moore.

      Well, actually, no not really. We can be like our physical parents physically, certainly. But we are not necessarily born in the physical image of our parents – I look nothing like my mom, and I have seen people who look nothing like either of their parents. Indeed, thetr are some who are born with no arms or legs.

      But all of us are like our parents in that we have personhood, we have the ability to make choices, we have the ability to learn, we have the ability to feel emotion, we have the ability to love. We have to learn the difference between right and wrong, and in that we become MORE like our parents, but we were already like our parents (even discounting the physical) before we learn the difference between right and wrong.

      One can be made in the image of someone and not have all of his traits. This was the case for Adam. Adam was made like God without having to know the difference between good and evil. But once He DID know the difference between good and evil, he was thrown out of the garden of eden, lest he eat of the tree of life (Genesis 2:22-23).

      You are free to disagree.

      But regardless of THAT rabbit trail, God made it clear He did not want man to sin, nor did God want man to have knowledge of good and evil – otherwise He would not have commanded Adam to not partake of the “tree” of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:8-17) . You said He did want man to have the knowledge of good and evil. https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8718 That idea contradicts scripture.

      If we don’t have A KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL then how do we KNOW what is “good” and what is “evil”?

      But until Adam fell by partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there was no need for man to know what is good or evil. Since that is the case, any discussion of us needing to teach our children good and evil is unnecessary and beside the point. The point is, and was, that scripture said God said to Adam to NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which indicates He did NOT WANT Adam to do so.

      As to why would it be there if God didn’t want man to partake of it – I dont know. I’m not God. Scripture does not tell us. It only trells that God’s plan is perfect and includes everything. Perhaps it was necessary for man to fall into sin so God could send His Son to be our Savior. This does not mean God wanted man to fall into sin, but that God knew it would be necessary. Thus, I think its better to say that God’s plan includes the fact that Adam would disobey God, but not that God WANTED man to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Otherwise, you contradict scripture.

      You want to claim that God not only CREATED a tree that HE KNEW would KILL HIS CHILDREN if they partook of it, He MADE IT DESIRABLE and then planted it in the garden with all the other trees that He created FOR THEM TO EAT FROM. And this He did KNOWIING that they would eat from it, even after He told them NOT TO.

      Some “test”!! Is that how you would “test” your children?

      We’re not talking chocolate candy bars here. We’re talking about THE LIVES OF CHILDREN (GOD’S CHILDREN) WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

      What kind of “loving parent” would put POISON in a candy bar (THEY MADE), make sure that that candy bar LOOKS DESIRABLE TO THEIR CHILD (who DOESN’T EVEN know the difference between good and evil / right and wrong), then PUTS IT IN FRONT OF THEM (mixed in with a bunch of other candy that they CAN EAT), and then says, Here! You can eat all of this candy you want, JUST DON’T EAT “that one” OR YOU WILL DIE?

      That is what you are saying God did, Mr. Moore!!

      God made ALL kinds of trees, that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. Meaning that there were plenty of “trees” Adam could partake of. All he needed to do was obey God. God TOLD Adam to not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, telling him what would happen if he did.

      Its like a gun owner who keeps guns around (in case of emergencies) telling his kids to not touch weapons that are in the house, teaching them that to do so could kill someone. The guns might be appealing, but are definitely NOT something the gun owner would want the kids to touch. The gun owner, who loves his children and wants what is best for them, is not tempting nor testing his children in that case – he’s doing what he deems necessary and warning his children to not mess with the guns.

      But although God did not WANT Adam to disobey and come to the knowledge of good and evil, God knew Adam would not obey, and so made a remedy for that – He planned from before the beginning of time to send His Son so that who ever believes in Him would be saved and have eternal life.

      And the story of Lazarus and the rich man appears IN A SERIES OF PARABLES, starting with the parable of THE LOST SHEEP.

      Now we know that Jesus is just telling a story here, right? And not only is he not talking about an actual “sheep” that was lost, that “sheep” REPRESENTS “something else” (A CHILD OF GOD), right? So why then does this “certain rich man” have to be a real man who existed and who went to hell to be tormented, Mr. Moore? Why did he “go to hell”? Just for being rich?

      While scripture does not tell us explicitly why he went to hell, I think its likely because of his lack of mercy and love.

      James 2:13

      For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy ; mercy triumphs over judgment.

      Matthew 23:23 NIV

      “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice,mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the forme

      Did the poor man (Lazarus) “go to heaven” just because he was poor?

      I think I understand the thought here, but Jesus said

      Luke 6:20

      20 And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

      and

      James 2:5

      Listen, my beloved brethren : did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

      So this begs the question, of what sort of poor was Jesus speaking? Most likely the poor who are helpless and who, because of their situations, MUST trust in God. But its not clear enough, I dont think, to make a judgement on that particular part of the parable.
      Perhaps it is because the poor have had the gospel preached to them (and by extension, believed), as we see in the beginning of Jesus’ ministry?
      Luke 4:18

      18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE * THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

      Again, I dont think we can say, because scripture does not tell us. We only know that one must have faith to enter the kingdom of heaven.

      Why do we care how they were dressed and what they were doing? How is that relevant to the story of heaven and hell if what gets on it “into heaven” is FAITH and what sends one to hell is a LACK OF FAITH? Where did “Lazarus” exhibit ANY “faith” in the story?

      We are not told why either went to where they went. This is not the purpose of the parable. The purpose was to say that the rich (the pharisses and scribes) would not believe “even if someone rises from the dead” and that one can not cross from the place of punishment to the place comfort after death.

      And wasn’t it the “certain rich man” who called ABRAHAM “father”? Who is ABRAHAM “the father” OF?

      He wa the physical father of physical Israelites, but he was also considered the father of the children of the promise, the believers in Christ.

      You say yourself that the sheep and the goats and the wheat and the tares REPRESENT OTHER THINGS (PEOPLE). But you have a problem with me not taking other things “literally”? Why? Just because they are things that YOU “take literally”?

      I have no problem at all with taking things which are shown to represent other things as the things they are shown to represent. The sheep are shown to represent righteous people, while the goats are shown to represent unrighteous people. The good seed are SAID by Christ to be the sons of the kingdom, and the tares are SAID by Christ to be sons of the evil one.

      If we try to spiritualize scripture where its not apparent this is what God has done, we run the risk of making scripture say what we want it to say, instead of understanding what it DOES say.

      So let us consider “the wheat” and “the tares”. Jesus said that the good seed (WHEAT) “are the children OF THE KINGDOM” and that the bad seed (TARES) “are the children OF THE WICKED ONE”. Right?

      WHERE IS “the kingdom of God”

      You are correct so far.

      To be clear, it is the kingdom of heaven which is spoken of in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 18. But we are not told where the kingdom of heaven is, just that it was near (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7). We know that only the ones who do the will of God (His Father in heaven) will enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21).

      Even so, we can assume that the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God, since Jesus said in Matthew 19:23-24

      23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24″Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

      and what do we have to be BORN OF AND WALKING IN in order to enter into it, Mr. Moore? Is it not THE SPIRIT?

      John 3:5

      Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

      And how is one born of the spirit? One must believe in Christ, and thus have eternal life. This gives entrances to the kingdom of God.

      John 3:14-21

      14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so mustthe Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world tojudge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged ; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that theLight has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for theirdeeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to theLight for fear * that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

      You continued…

      WHAT are “the children of the wicked one” BORN OF and WALKING IN? Is it not THE FLESH? So, YES, A MAN can be walking IN THE SPIRIT (WHEAT) or he can be walking IN THE FLESH (TARE). He can also PASS from one to the other!! So you are missing the point!!

      But man can not pass from one to the other after they die. We must have faith in Christ to enter the kingdom of God. Once we die, we are judged (Hebrews 9:27). So you only get until you die. Once you die, you will be judged. Jesus WILL come in His glory and sit on his throne and judge the nations (the people). At that time, there will be no passing from one to the other.

      Matthew 25:31-32

      But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

      This same truth is seen in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as well, where Abraham said that one can not pass from where one is in agony (most likely eternal punishment) to where one is comfort (most likely eternal life in heaven).

      Luke 16:25-26

      25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things ; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

      It is further stated explicitly in Hebrews 9:27-28:

      27 And inasmuch * as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

      You say: “you wanted to remove the word ‘aionios’ and replace it with ‘aion’”. THAT IS A LIE, Mr. Moore. I never exchanged one word for the other. I simply said that the meaning of the adjective (aionios) IS RELATED TO the meaning of the noun from which is was derived (aion) and pointed out the fact that the meaning OF THE NOUN (aion) is “AN AGE”. I pointed out the same thing you did with regard to “time” and “timely” and you can’t even see it.

      No, its NOT a lie. Its what you did. You said:

      “And neither does “aionios” (the adjective of “aion”, which mean AN AGE) MEAN “forever”.

      What I said with time and timely is that while there is a relationship, the two words mean very different things and to try to substitute one for the other changes the meaning of the text. Yet, you changed the meaning of the word ‘aionios’ from “without end, never to cease, everlasting.” to with an end because of its relationship to its root word – essentially replacing the actual word for its root word.

      You say: “You dont like that truth, so you try to ignore it and go to a root word usage – but that is not the word that GOD used.”

      Jesus DID NOT speak ENGLISH, Mr. Moore. He did NOT actually say “eternal life” or “eternal punishment” or “eternal fire”. The GREEK WORD “aionios” and the HEBREW WORD “olam” DO NOT MEAN “forever” or “without ceasing”. They may men INDEFINITE or PERPETUAL (wherein “the end” may not be KNOWN) but that doesn’t mean that they mean there is “no end”.

      We have Jesus’ words in Greek (and some Aramaic). But those words have been translated into English. He DID actually say eternal life, eternal punishment, eternal fire – He just did so in Greek.

      According to the lexicon ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aionios.html ), Aionios means

      1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
      2. without beginning
      3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

      Go argue its meaning with the authors of the lexicons and the translators of the Bible.

      You accuse me of trying to make the scriptures say what I want by changing the mean of words and yet you are now trying to claim that “chronos” means “all” (care to provide a source?) and pertains to time so “chronos aionios”

      I admit I made a mistake here. Obviously Chronos means time ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/chronos.html ), though it is translated as ‘all’ once. I have no idea what I was thinking, and can only think I was distracted when I wrote that. I’m sorry.

      in 2 Tim 1:9 would mean “all time without beginning or end” or “all eternity”. Well, let’s just say for one second that “chronos aionios” does means “all time without beginning or end” or “all eternity”. The Greek word “pro” means BEFORE. So you are claiming that Paul said that we were called with a holy calling BEFORE “all eternity”? Really?

      You are also claiming that when Paul said (in Tts 1:2) that God promised us “aionios zoe” (aiōniou zōēs = eternal life) “pro chronos aionios” that Paul was claiming that God promised us “eternal life” BEFORE “all eternity”?

      Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before (pro) the world began (chronos aionios);

      Why translate “chronos aionios” AGES or WORLD if it really means “all eternity”? Does it even make sense to say that God promised us “eternal life” BEFORE “all eternity began”?

      God promised us AIONIOS ZOE ~BEFORE~ TIMES AIONIOS ~BEGAN~

      Those “times” HAD A BEGINNING and it is DURING THEM that we live this “life”. The adjective “aionios” is modifying or describing the noun “zoe”. Much as the adjective “blue” is modifying or describing the noun “car” in the sentence: “I own a blue car.” Much like the adjective “annual” is modifying or describing the noun “meeting” in the sentence: “Please schedule an annual meeting to review our progress.” Much like the adjective “timely” is modifying or describing the noun “comment” in the sentence: “All of the student took notice of the teacher’s timely comment.”

      Eternal Life is the life we have NOW (during the AGES, during the “chronos anioios”) as believers. No, it doesn’t “end” when we die because we have also “put on” IMMORTALITY.

      As far as I can tell, It is only the translations which do not make use of modern scholarship (and the better manuscripts) that use ‘chronos’. The better translations, such as NASB, use aionios without chronos.

      But even if we DO use the KJV, its evident that the meaning is before eternal time began – which is ‘in the beginning’ (as in John 1:1).

      As far as “judgments” go, I was not asking you to list a bunch of “judgments” that God has executed against people. I know that “His judgments” (PLURAL) are poured out into the earth. That is not what I asked you about.

      You asked me ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8718 )

      As far as judgment goes, how many judgments do you believe there are?

      since your question was not specific, I answered as broadly as possible.

      You want to claim that I am the one who doesn’t know what “eternal” means and even throw up a bunch of phrased from scripture that contain the word, but will ignore all of the verses that contain the word, but refer to things THAT COME TO AN END. You even included “everlasting covenant” in your list and ignore the fact that even the OLD COVENANT was called “an everlasting covenant”. It BEGAN with Moses and it ENDED with Christ.

      The eternal covenant is NOT the covenant which ended with Christ. It was the PROMISE of Christ and the gathering together of God’s people, and the fact that God will put the fear of Him in their hearts, and how God’s tabernacle will be in the midst of His people. The blood of the eternal covenant is the blood of Christ, shed on the cross.

      Hebrews 13:20

      20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

      Isaiah 55:3-8

      3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear , and your soul shall live ; and I will makean everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call anation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. 6 Seek ye theLORD while he may be found , call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake hisway, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon . 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

      jeremiah 32:37-40

      37 Behold, I will gather them out of allcountries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: 39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40 And I will makean everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good ; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

      ezekiel 37:26-28

      26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

      Neither the Hebrew word “olam” or the Greek word “aionios” (they are equivalents) means “eternal” or “everlasting” in the sense that that which they describe/modify have “no beginning” and/or “no end”. As you can see, they can have BOTH.

      Again, go argue the language with the people who write lexicons and translate the manuscripts. Aionios means eternal as discussed above.

      You wrote,

      But there is no sense in spending time arguing over this if all you are going to do is continue accusing me of disingenuous because you can’t grasp what I am saying and are unwilling to consider anything other than the “traditional” understanding of scripture.

      If you have not figured it out by now, I will answer confusion, error, and heresy, with scripture.

      If you keep ignoring scripture and posting heresy, then either I will either not approve the comments (as they are becoming repetitive) or I will refute the heretical or erroneous ideas found in them. If you post things which are not heretical, then its likely we will be in agreement or at least acceptance of one another’s position. But I can not accept error or heresy which could cause people to not turn to Christ and so not be justified, sanctified, and reconciled to God, saved, given eternal life, entrances into the kingdom of God.

      You wrote,

      And I don’t suppose that it would do any good to inform you that for the first 500 years of the church the doctrine of “apokastasis” (the salvation of all men) was the predominate teaching/belief? (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – it’s available online if you want to check it.)

      But that contradicts the book you told me you found the idea that the salvation of all men was the predominate teaching or belief.

      http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc01.html?term=Apocatastasis

      But the writers defending the Apocatastasis are decidedly in the minority; and so bad was the repute of Origen for sound thinking that any theory known to be derived from him was looked at askance by the sober-minded. Jerome (d. 420), for example, reckoned the Apocatastasis among the “abhorrent” heresies of Origen (Epist., cxxxiv.). The emperor Justinian, in his edict against Origen, issued in 545, made it the ninth of the ten doctrines for which the latter should be anathematized; and when, at Justinian’s call, a council met in Constantinople that same year to condemn Origen, the doctrine appears as the fourteenth of the fifteen for which he was cursed (Hefele, Conciliengeschichte, ii. 789, 797, Eng. transl., iv. 220, 228).

      In the West, Augustine (354-430) threw his influence against the Apocatastasis, teaching in the most unmistakable language the absolute endlessness of future punishment (e.g., “City of God,” xxi, 11-23).

      So no, the concept of universal salvation (apocastasis) was NOT the predominate view for the first five hundred years of the church. It was heresy then and its heresy now.

  23. OF COURSE, God did not “want” Adam to sin. You are missing the point!! GOD CREATED THE TREE!! WHY? You claim it was a “test”. Do you “test” your children’s obedience to you with things that will harm them? Even kill them, Mr. Moore? What kind of “father” does that? If God did not want man to know the difference between good and evil He wouldn’t have created the tree in the first place, must less made it desirable. The reason God commanded them NOT to eat of it is the same reason that you tell your children not to misbehave or not to touch a hot stove or not to run out into the stree… because He knew what would happen when they did. After all, HE was the one who made “the penalty” DEATH. But He also provided us with THE WAY out of death, providing for our salvation “from sin and death” through “the resurrection of the dead”. And through it all we are growing and maturing and learning… the difference between right and wrong, gaining a knowledge of good an evil by the experience that God GAVE US to teach us and to humble is. God does not want ignorant children who don’t know the difference between right and wrong, Mr. Moore. He wanted us to gain that knowledge, but that knowledge comes with a price, just as it does for our children when we teach them as they grow and learn become mature adults.

    You claim “before Adam fell” there was no need for him to have a knowledge of good and evil.

    You do realize that THE SERPENT WAS ALREADY IN THE GARDEN, don’t you? And it was because Eve did not HAVE “a knowledge of good and evil” (to know the difference between right and wrong) that she was able to be deceived, right? EVIL was already IN THE WORLD, Mr, Moore. Why on earth would God not want His children to be able to “protect themselves” by KNOWING the difference between right and wrong?

    I have to say again, you are missing the point. You are missing the bigger picture.

    You say: “God made ALL kinds of trees, that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. Meaning that there were plenty of “trees” Adam could partake of. All he needed to do was obey God. God TOLD Adam to not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, telling him what would happen if he did.”

    EXACTLY, my point!! CHILDREN (innocent / ignorant / lacking in KNOWLEDGE AND EXPEREINCE) NEVER listen to their parents, Mr. Moore. They have to LEARN BY EXPEREINCE, to even “understand” what their parents are telling them. Do you suppose Adam (or Eve, especially) even “knew” what death was? Remember! They did NOT HAVE “your” KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, sir. They were as innocent and ignorant as “children” who know nothing of this world OR THE EVIL that is in it.

    As far as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it is part of a series of parables. What do all of those stories have in common and who is Jesus addressing them to? Out of curiosity, have you ever even read an interpretation of that parable that isn’t about a literal place of physical torment after physical death? That explains the reason for all the many “details” given in the story (from what the men were wearing, to the reference to “dogs’ and even to the “five brothers” of the rich man)? The “gulf” that is “Fixed” between Lazarus and the rich man, that cannot be crosses, is THE BLINDNESS OF THE JEWS…. It will not be lifted UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles are come in.

    You said: “Once we die, we are judged (Hebrews 9:27).”

    Read it again. Start with verse 24. That passage is not about OUR physical death. It is about JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS… AND AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT. Why do you think Jesus said NOW is the judgment of this world? Judgment has begun and it BEGINS at the house of God.

    Regarding my claim that I never exchange the adjective “aionios” with the noun “aion” you quoted me as saying:

    “And neither does “aionios” (the adjective of “aion”, which mean AN AGE) MEAN “forever”.

    Yes, that is what I said. Now where in that sentence did I “exchange” on word for the other or claim that ANY passage of scriptures in the bible that contains the word “aionios” should actually contain the word “aion”, or even claim that the meaning of the adjective (aionios) IS THE SAME AS the meaning of the noun (aion)?

    If you think that is what I said, you are wrong, Mr. Moore. Read it again. It’s says nothing of the sort. It only says that the adjective is DERIVFED FROM the noun, therefore the meaning of the adjective is RELATED TO the meaning of the noun. Nothing more. So you are free to believe what you want. I never claimed that “aionios” mean “age”. But it does PERTAIN TO “the ages” (as that is what the word it was derived from (aion) MEANS (just like “timely” PERTAINS TO “time”… and “hourly” PERTAINS TO “hour”, etc, etc. The fact that you have a modern day dictionary that tells you that “eternal” can mean any number of things, from “no end”, to “no beginning” to “no beginning or end” doesn’t prove that is what AIONIOS meant ~2000 YEARS AGO, Mr. Moore. That is how we use it TODAY and a lot of that has to do with it’s use in the bible and what most people believe it “means”. But the meanings of words can change (sometimes quite drastically) over time. And if you examine the USE of the word in scripture (as I have already pointed out) there are many instances in which “eternal” and “everlasting” DO NOT MEN “forever and ever” (even that phrase is a mistranslation, it should be “to the age of the ages” or “to the ages of the ages: in the plural… since when does “eternity” have A PLURAL? Is there more than one “eternity”?) But if you don’t even want to consider the examples that I gave you, then there’s nothing I can do about it. Scribes are nor perfect and even the scriptures speak of the pen of scribes being in vain. It also speaks of the fact that the rulers of Jerusalem MADE A COVENANT WITH DEATH AND WITH HELL… and it also says: “your covenant with death SHALL BE DISANNULLED, and your agreement with hell SHALL NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through…”

    With regard to “chronos aionios” you said:

    “But even if we DO use the KJV, its evident that the meaning is before eternal time began – which is ‘in the beginning’ (as in John 1:1).”

    So you are claiming that “eternity” HAD A BEGINNING and that there was something BEFORE “eternity”?

    TIME has to do with us, with this physical creation, Mr. Moore. That is my whole point and even (whether or not you realize it) what you are also saying here. That these “times” (whatever we call them… we could call them “peanut butter times” for all it matters… HAD A BEGINNING. And that BEFORE those “times” BEGAN (“in the beginning, per John 1:1, YES… but not the beginning of “eternity”… the beginning of THE AGES) God promised us “eternal LIFE”… or “peanut butter LIFE”… or “age-during LIFE”. It has to do with the “times” (AGES) that were “created” that HAD A BEGINNING. Christ came that we might HAVE LIFE and have it MORE ABUDNABNTLY (not be DEAD IN SIN, but LIVE – UNTO GOD AND CHRIST). We do that “here” while we are MORTAL. Remember, that it is THIS MORTAL that must “put on” IMMORTALITY (by being CLOTHED UPON – not “unclothed”). It is THIS MORTAL BODY that is quickened by the spirit of God that dwells in us… and this is what gives us “eternal” (AGE-ENDURING) LIFE.

    You say: “The eternal covenant is NOT the covenant which ended with Christ.” And then you quote passages that talk about the NEW Covenant, rather than the old. You do know that the OLD COVENANT was also called an “Everlasting Covenant” don’t you?

    You said: “Again, go argue the language with the people who write lexicons and translate the manuscripts. Aionios means eternal as discussed above.”

    Interesting that you want to insist that “aionios mean eternal” when even the definition that YOU GAVE (remember that lexicon?) gives MORE THAN ONE MEANING for the word… INCLUDING things that can have AN END (just like the “everlasting priesthood” of Aaron THAT ENDED. Just like the “everlasting statute” that lasted only as long as the OLD COVENANT lasted).

    When I mentioned the Encyclopedia of religious knowledge you said:

    “But that contradicts the book you told me you found the idea that the salvation of all men was the predominate teaching or belief.”

    First of all, I never claimed that it where I got the idea from. I discovered that encyclopedia long after I came to believe in the salvation of all men (which I came to by studying the scriptures, without even knowing that the early church taught it). Secondly, the quote you provided was about Origen, who live in the early 6th century. He was NOT the first believer or teacher of total restoration. But he did head the theological school in Alexandria, which was the first and for a long time the only Christian school of theology. And guess what was taught there? Apokatastasis! But by the time of Origen the church also had to deal with the very strong influence of Augustine, especially in the West. And it was in the West that the doctrine of “eternal torment” (the way many understand it today) began to grow and flourish, especially after the church moved away from the Grrek text and replaced them with the Latin text. It was then that Origen (or, at least some of his doctrine) was declared “anathema” (and even the Catholic Encyclopedia says that there ate some doubts as to whether or not that was one of the beliefs held by Origen upon which “anathema” was declared. In fact, Gregory of Nysaa (if I am recalling correctly, I will have to go back and check) headed a counsel for the church even after Origen was anathematized and he also believed in the doctrine of Apokatastasis.

    But HERE is the reference I was referring to:

    “The earliest system of Universalistic theology was by Clement of Alexandria (q.v.), who was the head of the theological school in that city until 202 A.D. His successor in the school was the great Origen (q.v.) who was the most distinguished advocate of this doctrine in all time. His mind has something of the largeness of Plato combined with Christian piety, and his influence was felt for many centuries throughout the East and to some extent in the West. The next great philosophical theologian in the East was Gregory of Nyssa (q.v.) Then came Theodore Mopsuestia (q.v.), distinguished as the promulgator of the grammatico-historical exegesis (see EXEGESIS OR HERMENEUTICS, III., 3; and ANTIOCH, SCHOOL OF), and of a Biblical scientific theology containing a portion of the theory of evolution applied to the history of mankind. His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine. Johannes Cassianus (q.v.) should also be mentioned. He was the author of Semipelagianism (q.v.). Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; AND INDEED THE WHOLE EASTERN CHURCH UNTIL AFTER 500 A.D. was inclined to it.

    “In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, OF WHICH FOUR (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) WERE UNIVERSALIST; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge Vol. 12, p. 96)

    – [END QUOTE]

    • OF COURSE, God did not “want” Adam to sin.

      We agree.

      Where we disagree is that you said ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8718 )

      God does want us to gain a knowledge of good and evil.

      Yet scripture said God told Adam to NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17).

      So, combining your reasoning with scripture, this is what I am understanding you are saying (please correct me if I am mistaken):

      God wanted man to know the difference between good and evil, but God told Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, God told Adam to not do the very thing God wanted Adam to do.

      Is that what you are saying?

      As far as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it is part of a series of parables. What do all of those stories have in common and who is Jesus addressing them to?

      Out of curiosity, have you ever even read an interpretation of that parable that isn’t about a literal place of physical torment after physical death? That explains the reason for all the many “details” given in the story (from what the men were wearing, to the reference to “dogs’ and even to the “five brothers” of the rich man)?

      The details are to explain the rich man was of the really rich, and Lazarus was not just of the really poor, but in abject misery.

      The “gulf” that is “Fixed” between Lazarus and the rich man, that cannot be crosses, is THE BLINDNESS OF THE JEWS…. It will not be lifted UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles are come in.

      It seems to me there is no hope of moving from torment to the blessings of Abraham’s bosom, or of Lazarus helping the rich man. The judgement has been made; the decision can not reversed.

      Scripture does not state the chasm can not be crossed UNTIL anything. Scripture is clear that the chasm can not be crossed. Period. Nothing added to that statement. To add ‘UNTIL the FULLNESS of the Gentiles are come in” is to add to scripture.

      Besides that, it is clear that the people in the place of comfort could not cross over to the place of torment, and neither could people cross over from the place of torment to the place of comfort. It doesnt say anything about the people in the place of torment EVER crossing over to the place of comfort, or vice-versa. But, according to what I understand you to say, people would be able to cross over once the fullness of the gentiles are come in. Why would people cross from the place of comfort to the place of torment?

      You said: “Once we die, we are judged (Hebrews 9:27).”

      Read it again. Start with verse 24. That passage is not about OUR physical death. It is about JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS… AND AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT. Why do you think Jesus said NOW is the judgment of this world? Judgment has begun and it BEGINS at the house of God.

      Let us look at the whole of the passage in question.
      Hebrews 9:22-28

      . 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world ; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

      We can see that there needed to be blood shed (by a sacrifice) for there to be forgiveness. We see that Christ entered heaven once after having sacrificed himself once. We see that in the SAME way that men die once and are judged, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (ie, died), Christ will return to save those who eagerly await Him.

      No, the passage is NOT about OUR physical death, BUT it is more than obvious that Christ died once and will return to save those who eagerly await Him IN THE SAME WAY THAT MAN DIES ONCE AND IS JUDGED.

      So, while the passage is not about our physical death, it still makes it clear that we do die ONCE and then are judged.

      Regarding my claim that I never exchange the adjective “aionios” with the noun “aion” you quoted me as saying:

      “And neither does “aionios” (the adjective of “aion”, which mean AN AGE) MEAN “forever”.

      Yes, that is what I said. Now where in that sentence did I “exchange” on word for the other or claim that ANY passage of scriptures in the bible that contains the word “aionios” should actually contain the word “aion”, or even claim that the meaning of the adjective (aionios) IS THE SAME AS the meaning of the noun (aion)?

      If you think that is what I said, you are wrong, Mr. Moore. Read it again. It’s says nothing of the sort. It only says that the adjective is DERIVFED FROM the noun, therefore the meaning of the adjective is RELATED TO the meaning of the noun. Nothing more. So you are free to believe what you want. I never claimed that “aionios” mean “age”. But it does PERTAIN TO “the ages” (as that is what the word it was derived from (aion) MEANS (just like “timely” PERTAINS TO “time”… and “hourly” PERTAINS TO “hour”, etc, etc. The fact that you have a modern day dictionary that tells you that “eternal” can mean any number of things, from “no end”, to “no beginning” to “no beginning or end” doesn’t prove that is what AIONIOS meant ~2000 YEARS AGO, Mr. Moore. That is how we use it TODAY and a lot of that has to do with it’s use in the bible and what most people believe it “means”. But the meanings of words can change (sometimes quite drastically) over time.

      So what makes your lexicon any more accurate than the one I’m using? According to you, we can never know what the words meant +2000 years ago. Since that is the case, nothing in the bible can be trusted to be accurate or true. So why bother?

      And if you examine the USE of the word in scripture (as I have already pointed out) there are many instances in which “eternal” and “everlasting” DO NOT MEN “forever and ever” (even that phrase is a mistranslation, it should be “to the age of the ages” or “to the ages of the ages: in the plural… since when does “eternity” have A PLURAL? Is there more than one “eternity”?) But if you don’t even want to consider the examples that I gave you, then there’s nothing I can do about it. Scribes are nor perfect and even the scriptures speak of the pen of scribes being in vain.

      I dont know if you have ever taken a calculus class, but there are the concepts of infinity, positive infinity, and negative infinity. The idea is that something can be infinite on both sides of zero, infinite on the positive side of zero, or infinite on the negative side of zero.

      This is what is meant by aionios. It can be eternal (on both sides of the center of time), it can be eternal from the start but with a definite end (no beginning, but an end), or it can be eternal from a definite start (a start, but no end).

      God has said we have eternal life if we believe in Christ (John 3:16). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

      God has said the wicked will go to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

      God has said He has saved us (believers) according to His purpose and grace which was granted to us from all eternity (2 Timothy 1:9). This would be an example of there being no start (before time began).

      Jesus said the wicked people will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). This might be an example of no beginning (ie, created before time began), and no end (we see in Revelation that it will continue to exist after the new heaven and earth are created), or if not, then it is an example of a start but no end.

      Ie, God is eternal (1 Timothy 1:17). This would be an example of no beginning or end.

      It also speaks of the fact that the rulers of Jerusalem MADE A COVENANT WITH DEATH AND WITH HELL… and it also says: “your covenant with death SHALL BE DISANNULLED, and your agreement with hell SHALL NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through…”

      What is your point with that statement?

      With regard to “chronos aionios” you said:

      “But even if we DO use the KJV, its evident that the meaning is before eternal time began – which is ‘in the beginning’ (as in John 1:1).”

      So you are claiming that “eternity” HAD A BEGINNING and that there was something BEFORE “eternity”?

      I am saying that the idea of before eternity is before creation began – in the beginning.
      Eternity means without beginning or end, without end, or without beginning – as I stated to begin with.

      TIME has to do with us, with this physical creation, Mr. Moore.

      I agree. But something can be without beginning or end, without beginning, or without end.

      Christ came that we might HAVE LIFE and have it MORE ABUDNABNTLY (not be DEAD IN SIN, but LIVE – UNTO GOD AND CHRIST). We do that “here” while we are MORTAL. Remember, that it is THIS MORTAL that must “put on” IMMORTALITY (by being CLOTHED UPON – not “unclothed”). It is THIS MORTAL BODY that is quickened by the spirit of God that dwells in us… and
      this is what gives us “eternal” (AGE-ENDURING) LIFE.

      Not everyone will be quickened (made alive). According Ephesians 2:1-9, it was not all the dead who were made alive with Christ. Paul states that we were made alive with Christ (saved) through faith – and it obviously happened in this physical life. People who do NOT believe are NOT quickened.

      Ephesians 2:1-9

      1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of ourflesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He lovedus, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in theheavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

      Believers were raised with Christ through faith. Believers had their sins forgiven, but this is not the case for unbelievers.

      Colossians 2:5-14

      5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ. 6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus theLord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority ; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

      Unbelievers will not get eternal life nor immortality, but wrath and indignation.

      Romans 2:5c-8

      God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS : 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

      You continue,

      You say: “The eternal covenant is NOT the covenant which ended with Christ.” And then you quote passages that talk about the NEW Covenant, rather than the old. You do know that the OLD COVENANT was also called an “Everlasting Covenant” don’t you?

      I know the covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant. (Genesis 17:7,13, 19). It was not replaced.

      But where do you see the the old covenant was considered an everlasting one?

      You went on,

      You said: “Again, go argue the language with the people who write lexicons and translate the manuscripts. Aionios means eternal as discussed above.”

      Interesting that you want to insist that “aionios mean eternal” when even the definition that YOU GAVE (remember that lexicon?) gives MORE THAN ONE MEANING for the word… INCLUDING things that can have AN END (just like the “everlasting priesthood” of Aaron THAT ENDED. Just like the “everlasting statute” that lasted only as long as the OLD COVENANT lasted).

      I have held from the beginning that aionios means

      1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
      2. without beginning
      3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

      By the way, the Hebrew word owlam is not an exact translation of the Greek word aionios, though they are similar.
      Owlam means:

      1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
        1. ancient time, long time (of past)
        2. (of future)
          1. for ever, always
          2. continuous existence, perpetual
          3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

      You said,

      When I mentioned the Encyclopedia of religious knowledge you said:

      “But that contradicts the book you told me you found the idea that the salvation of all men was the predominate teaching or belief.”

      First of all, I never claimed that it where I got the idea from. I discovered that encyclopedia long after I came to believe in the salvation of all men (which I came to by studying the scriptures, without even knowing that the early church taught it).

      Ok. Here’s a misunderstanding. I was not saying you got the idea of universalism from the encyclopedia, I was saying you got the idea that “the first 500 years of the church the doctrine of “apokastasis” (the salvation of all men) was the predominate teaching/belief” from the encyclopedia.

      You said,

      Secondly, the quote you provided was about Origen, who live in the early 6th century.

      To be clear, the quote from the encyclopedia you told me about mentioned Origen, but it was about Apocatastasis itself (the link even has that word in it) and stated, “Apocatastasis are decidedly in the minority.”

      You said,

      But HERE is the reference I was referring to:

      “The earliest system of Universalistic theology was by Clement of Alexandria (q.v.), who was the head of the theological school in that city until 202 A.D. His successor in the school was the great Origen (q.v.) who was the most distinguished advocate of this doctrine in all time. His mind has something of the largeness of Plato combined with Christian piety, and his influence was felt for many centuries throughout the East and to some extent in the West. The next great philosophical theologian in the East was Gregory of Nyssa (q.v.) Then came Theodore Mopsuestia (q.v.), distinguished as the promulgator of the grammatico-historical exegesis (see EXEGESIS OR HERMENEUTICS, III., 3; and ANTIOCH, SCHOOL OF), and of a Biblical scientific theology containing a portion of the theory of evolution applied to the history of mankind. His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine. Johannes Cassianus (q.v.) should also be mentioned. He was the author of
      Semipelagianism (q.v.). Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; AND INDEED THE WHOLE EASTERN CHURCH UNTIL AFTER 500 A.D. was inclined to it.

      “In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, OF WHICH FOUR (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) WERE UNIVERSALIST; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge Vol. 12, p. 96)

      – [END QUOTE]

      thank you. Here’s the link to that quote: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12.u.ii.html#u.ii-Page_96

  24. WB:
    Yet scripture said God told Adam to NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17).
    So, combining your reasoning with scripture, this is what I am understanding you are saying (please correct me if I am mistaken):
    God wanted man to know the difference between good and evil, but God told Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, God told Adam to not do the very thing God wanted Adam to do.
    Is that what you are saying?

    ME:
    Mr. Moore, this isn’t that hard to understand. So is the only reason you are arguing with me because you disagree with me that Jesus Christ actually did save the whole world? One has nothing to do with the other, you know? Even if not all men are saved, God still wants us to know the difference between good and evil. Why do you think he gave Moses the Law (“a ministration OF DEATH”)? Mr. Moore, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is a figure of “the law”. Just as “the tree of Life” is a figure of “Christ”. One condemns the other saves us from that condemnation. That is why God guarded the tree of life with a fiery sword. We have to pass through that fire in order to get to that tree and “live forever”. To claim that God commanding us to not eat of that tree, lest we die, is like claiming that you don’t want your children to know the difference between right and wrong just because you tell them not to run out into the street because they could get hit by a car if they do. You know the consequences and you tell your children what those consequences are, in order to protect them and in order to inform them of those consequences… because you WANT them to know and to learn (the difference between right and wrong, so that they can make THE RIGHT choice), not because you don’t want them to know the difference.

    WB:
    The details are to explain the rich man was of the really rich, and Lazarus was not just of the really poor, but in abject misery.

    ME:
    And has wealth of poverty (or even “abject misery”) have to do with salvation, Mr. Moore? Are we not save BY FAITH ALONE?

    WB:
    It seems to me there is no hope of moving from torment to the blessings of Abraham’s bosom, or of Lazarus helping the rich man. The judgement has been made; the decision can not reversed.

    Scripture does not state the chasm can not be crossed UNTIL anything. Scripture is clear that the chasm can not be crossed. Period. Nothing added to that statement. To add ‘UNTIL the FULLNESS of the Gentiles are come in” is to add to scripture.

    ME:
    I did not add to the anything to scripture, Mr. Moore. I drew a connection between this parable (which I believe is about the gospel being taken away from the Jews and give to the Gentile) and what Paul said about the Jews being cast off “for the salvation of the world” and that blindness will not be removed “unto the fullness of the Gentiles come it”. Do you not know what passage I am referring to? (PS, we are not saved by calling ON ABRAHAM, Mr. Moore. But with Christ ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.)

    WB:
    Besides that, it is clear that the people in the place of comfort could not cross over to the place of torment, and neither could people cross over from the place of torment to the place of comfort. It doesnt say anything about the people in the place of torment EVER crossing over to the place of comfort, or vice-versa. But, according to what I understand you to say, people would be able to cross over once the fullness of the gentiles are come in. Why would people cross from the place of comfort to the place of torment?

    ME:
    To pull them out of the fire!!

    WB:
    Let us look at the whole of the passage in question.
    Hebrews 9:22-28

    *snipped the passages out*

    We can see that there needed to be blood shed (by a sacrifice) for there to be forgiveness. We see that Christ entered heaven once after having sacrificed himself once. We see that in the SAME way that men die once and are judged, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (ie, died), Christ will return to save those who eagerly await Him.
    No, the passage is NOT about OUR physical death, BUT it is more than obvious that Christ died once and will return to save those who eagerly await Him IN THE SAME WAY THAT MAN DIES ONCE AND IS JUDGED.
    So, while the passage is not about our physical death, it still makes it clear that we do die ONCE and then are judged.

    ME:
    Though it says that Christ DIED ONCE, even as it appointed unto all men to die once, this passage is still about HIS DEATH on the cross. You admit this yourself,

    You say: “THE SAME WAY MAN DIES ONCE AND IS JUDGED”

    Yet, I am pretty sure that Jesus did not face judgment after HIS DEATH. So it’s not exactly a direct comparison, then, is it?

    What do you make of the fact that it speaks of death THEN judgment THEN salvation? Or the fact that it says that comes “the second time” unto them that look for him (ie “those who eagerly await Him”)? Clearly this isn’t talking about corpse in graves, but living human beings, no?

    There is a reason that Christ was crucified in place called “a skull”, Mr. Moore. That which is seen is meant to reveal to us those things that are not seen. We were “made enemies” IN OUR MINDS. That is where “we” CRUCIFIED OUR LORD. And because of that we “died” and we were “judged” (and found guilty) if the death of the Son of God. And the wrath of God was poured out upon us. And it is not until HE (who IS OUR LIFE) APPEARS (IN US) that WE appear with Him in glory (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory!). Until that time our life is HID WITH CHRIST in God.

    So, yes, it is appointed unto men once to die and, yes, after this comes judgment, but that has nothing to do with our physical death. It has to do with the fact that we “crucified” CHRIST (in a place called “A SKULL” = IN OUR MINDS). And it is a renewing OF OUR MINDS that brings us LIFE (from the dead – for “to be carnally minded IS DEATH”).

    We have to stop thinking that the shadows are all that there is! That which is seen is meant to show us those things that are not seen. They are not “the” truth, but they point us “to” THE TRUTH. And Paul very clearly tells us that we are suppose to be looking upon those things that are “not seen”. Isn’t that the only way that we can compare “spiritual things with spiritual”)?

    WB:
    So what makes your lexicon any more accurate than the one I’m using?

    ME:
    Where did I say it does? Where did I even mention Lexicons? I know of no Lexicon (or Greek Scholar anywhere) who does not AGREE that the proper definition of the noun “aion” IS AGE. What I am appealing to are the rules of grammar AND the way the word is used in scripture. Not the way the word is “translated” but the way the word IS USED. Despite the definitions given by Webster or even your lexicon, the words it USED to refer to things that have BOTH a beginning and an end. That is A FACT. If it is a fact that you wish to ignore on the grounds of what you have been told the word means (regardless of the facts) then I have nothing more to say about it. I’m not asking you to take my word for it. Do some research.

    WB:
    According to you, we can never know what the words meant +2000 years ago.

    ME:
    Where did I say that? Though that may be true of some words (even your lexicon will tell you that), I’ve never said “we can never what the words meant +2000 years ago”. I know and you know that the “proper” definition of the Greek word “aion” IS AGE. You know and I know that the Greek word “aionios” is the adjective form of the noun “aion”. And I hope that we both know that this means that their meanings, though NOT THE SAME, ARE connected.

    WB:
    Since that is the case, nothing in the bible can be trusted to be accurate or true. So why bother?

    ME:
    Please stop claiming I said things I didn’t.

    WB:
    I dont know if you have ever taken a calculus class, but there are the concepts of infinity, positive infinity, and negative infinity. The idea is that something can be infinite on both sides of zero, infinite on the positive side of zero, or infinite on the negative side of zero.
    This is what is meant by aionios. It can be eternal (on both sides of the center of time), it can be eternal from the start but with a definite end (no beginning, but an end), or it can be eternal from a definite start (a start, but no end).

    ME:
    I have no problem with “aionios” meaning INFINITE, Mr. Moore. I have said that before!! And I have no problem with “eternal” meaning INFINITE. But INFINITE only means that there is no end IN SIGHT, NOT that there is (absolutely) “no end”. And that is EXACTLY what the Hebrew word “olam” (the Hebrew equivalent of “aionios”) means. That is my point, exactly!!

    My problem is that you cannot claim that something has “no beginning” or “no end” when the scriptures say otherwise. The “ages” (aion) to which “eternal life” (“aionios zoe”) APPLIES have both a beginning and end, Mr. Moore. Not according to me, but according to the bible, the word of God.

    WB:
    God has said we have eternal life if we believe in Christ (John 3:16). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

    ME:
    Not necessarily! Though our LIFE will not come to an end, it is only called “eternal” (aionios) DURING “the ages”. That is why those who are SEEKING “immortality” are given “eternal life”. They are not the same, but they are BOTH “life”. And it is because we are given “immortality” that our life does not come to an end.

    WB:
    God has said the wicked will go to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

    ME:
    It is AGE-DURING or AGE-ABIDE punishment. Have you ever studied the word translated “punishment”?

    WB:
    God has said He has saved us (believers) according to His purpose and grace which was granted to us from all eternity (2 Timothy 1:9). This would be an example of there being no start (before time began).

    ME:
    No “start” to salvation? How can that be when there was a beginning of creation? And the Gospel (GOOD NEWS) was TO ALL MEN (not just believers). NONE start our as “believers”, Mr. Moore. Christ died for us (and we were quickened together with him WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS (not after we believed).

    These posts are getting way too long and taking way too much time to answer. I’ll have to come back for the rest. But I can’t keep addressing 10 and 11 pages worth of replies. I just don’t have the time. Is there a way to narrow some of this down?

    PS. Do “quotes” work the same way in the comment box as they do in the blogs? Just use the html code?

    • WB:

      Yet scripture said God told Adam to NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17).
      So, combining your reasoning with scripture, this is what I am understanding you are saying (please correct me if I am mistaken):
      God wanted man to know the difference between good and evil, but God told Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, God told Adam to not do the very thing God wanted Adam to do.
      Is that what you are saying?

      ME:
      Mr. Moore, this isn’t that hard to understand.

      YOU are hard to understand.

      So is the only reason you are arguing with me because you disagree with me that Jesus Christ actually did save the whole world?

      I’m trying to understand what you are saying.

      One has nothing to do with the other, you know?

      yes.

      Even if not all men are saved, God still wants us to know the difference between good and evil.

      Ok. Here’s the rub. I agree that God’s plan (from before creation) included the fact that adam would learn the difference between right and wrong, and God would send His Son to redeem us, so that those who believe could have forgiveness of sins and be justified, and have eternal life. (we will leave the issue of ‘salvation’ aside for the moment).

      My problem is with your use of the word ‘want’. I think there is a difference between want, cause, and plan a remedy for. I do not see where God desired nor caused Adam to disobey God, nor where God desired Adam to know the difference between right and wrong. I agree that when Adam learned the difference, he died spiritually. In fact, you and I have agreed that God warned him about not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

      It would be disohonest of God for Him to WANT Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but TELL HIM NOT to do so, and we know God does not lie (Numbers 23:19; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). This is why I am asking you whether you are saying, “God told Adam to NOT do the very thing God wanted him to do.”
      .

      Why do you think he gave Moses the Law (“a ministration OF DEATH”)? Mr. Moore, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is a figure of “the law”.

      We are not told why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, only that He did so and told Adam to not eat of it.

      But the Law was given, according to Galatians 3:24, to lead us to Christ so we may be justified by faith.

      Galatians 3:24

      Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

      Just as “the tree of Life” is a figure of “Christ”. One condemns the other saves us from that condemnation. That is why God guarded the tree of life with a fiery sword. We have to pass through that fire in order to get to that tree and “live forever”.

      Scripture tells us God guarded the tree of life with a fiery sword because He does NOT want man to also take from the tree of life and live forever. Where do you see we are to pass through fire to live forever?

      Genesis 3:22-24

      22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So Hedrove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

      I suppose you could get there because the Holy Spirit is the fire with which believers are baptized. But it seems a stretch to me.

      To claim that God commanding us to not eat of that tree, lest we die, is like claiming that you don’t want your children to know the difference between right and wrong just because you tell them not to run out into the street because they could get hit by a car if they do. You know the consequences and you tell your children what those consequences are, in order to protect them and in order to inform them of those consequences… because you WANT them to know and to learn (the difference between right and wrong, so that they can make THE RIGHT choice), not because you don’t want them to know the difference.

      The only right choice is to obey God. God was NOT merely warning what would happen when He said to not eat of it. According to scripture, God said He COMMANDED Adam to not eat of it.
      Genesis 3:11

      11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked ? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ?

      I do not set a rule to teach my children the difference between right or wrong. The rule is set up to save their lives. The right or wrong is whether they obey me, with the wrong being disobeying me. The consequence of disobeying might be physical injury or death and short of that discipline from me for disobedience. But the reason I set the rule was to protect them, not to teach them the difference between right and wrong.

      I really dont care if they ever learn WRONG. I want them to learn RIGHT. We are born with a sin nature. My kids do wrong naturally. They need to learn to do right – obey.

      Adam was in a perfect world. He CHOSE to disobey. Yes, God knew he would disobey, but He did NOT want Adam to learn the difference between right or wrong, otherwise He would not have COMMANDED Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

      WB:

      The details are to explain the rich man was of the really rich, and Lazarus was not just of the really poor, but in abject misery.

      ME:
      And has wealth of poverty (or even “abject misery”) have to do with salvation, Mr. Moore? Are we not save BY FAITH ALONE?

      I addressed this in the comment 2011/01/12 at 10:28 pm ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8920 )

      WB:

      It seems to me there is no hope of moving from torment to the blessings of Abraham’s bosom, or of Lazarus helping the rich man. The judgement has been made; the decision can not reversed.

      Scripture does not state the chasm can not be crossed UNTIL anything. Scripture is clear that the chasm can not be crossed. Period. Nothing added to that statement. To add ‘UNTIL the FULLNESS of the Gentiles are come in” is to add to scripture.

      ME:
      I did not add to the anything to scripture, Mr. Moore. I drew a connection between this parable (which I believe is about the gospel being taken away from the Jews and give to the Gentile) and what Paul said about the Jews being cast off “for the salvation of the world” and that blindness will not be removed “unto the fullness of the Gentiles come it”. Do you not know what passage I am referring to? (PS, we are not saved by calling ON ABRAHAM, Mr. Moore. But with Christ ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.)

      hmmm…. looking at it from the idea that it “is about the gospel being taken away from the Jews and given to the Gentiles,” I think I can see part of your point. I disagree with, “The “gulf” that is “Fixed” between Lazarus and the rich man, that cannot be crosses, is THE BLINDNESS OF THE JEWS.” But I WOULD say the blindness of the Jews is evident in verses 29-31, where it is evident the rich man knew his brothers would ignore Moses and the prophets, and Abraham knew they would “not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'””

      And I would agree that blindness “will not be lifted UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles are come in.”

      I still think the rich man is in fire while Lazarus is in paradise, and that it is evident that one can not cross over.

      (As a side note, I did a search for the words which begin the story “There was a certain” in KJV and “Now there was” in the NASB, and in every case, with the possible exception of the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it is obvious God is speaking about a historical fact. Just an interesting tidbit, as I’ve always heard it as a parable.).

      WB:

      Besides that, it is clear that the people in the place of comfort could not cross over to the place of torment, and neither could people cross over from the place of torment to the place of comfort. It doesnt say anything about the people in the place of torment EVER crossing over to the place of comfort, or vice-versa. But, according to what I understand you to say, people would be able to cross over once the fullness of the gentiles are come in. Why would people cross from the place of comfort to the place of torment?

      ME:
      To pull them out of the fire!!

      So are you saying there is a physical hell, a place of fire and torment?

      The idea of pulling people out of hell sounds nice. But the fact is, the scripture DOES state in verse 26, “‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'” So its clear no one may cross from one to the other. It is also evident, from verses 27-31 that those who are physically alive have the opportunity to decide and to decide where they go. We see from verse 26 that once physically dead, the opportunity to make that choice is gone.

      WB:

      Let us look at the whole of the passage in question.
      Hebrews 9:22-28
      *snipped the passages out*
      We can see that there needed to be blood shed (by a sacrifice) for there to be forgiveness. We see that Christ entered heaven once after having sacrificed himself once. We see that in the SAME way that men die once and are judged, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (ie, died), Christ will return to save those who eagerly await Him.
      No, the passage is NOT about OUR physical death, BUT it is more than obvious that Christ died once and will return to save those who eagerly await Him IN THE SAME WAY THAT MAN DIES ONCE AND IS JUDGED.
      So, while the passage is not about our physical death, it still makes it clear that we do die ONCE and then are judged.

      ME:
      Though it says that Christ DIED ONCE, even as it appointed unto all men to die once, this passage is still about HIS DEATH on the cross. You admit this yourself,

      You say:

      “THE SAME WAY MAN DIES ONCE AND IS JUDGED”

      Yet, I am pretty sure that Jesus did not face judgment after HIS DEATH. So it’s not exactly a direct comparison, then, is it?

      It is a one for one comparison –
      man dies (physically) once: Christ was offered once (physically) to bear the sins of many.
      man is judged: Christ will appear a second time for salvation of those who await Him .

      You wrote,

      What do you make of the fact that it speaks of death THEN judgment THEN salvation? Or the fact that it says that comes “the second time” unto them that look for him (ie “those who eagerly await Him”)? Clearly this isn’t talking about corpse in graves, but living human beings, no?

      No.

      I think that man’s physical death precedes man’s judgement. I also think that Christ’s physical death precedes the salvation of those who trust Him. People who trust Christ will receive that which was promised.

      I think it is talking about people – physically living before death, but they are physically dead when they are judged and physically dead but spiritually alive when the believers in Christ receive the results of salvation for those who trusted Him while physically alive.

      You continued,

      There is a reason that Christ was crucified in place called “a skull”, Mr. Moore. That which is seen is meant to reveal to us those things that are not seen.

      You have said that before, but scripture does not tell us why Christ was crucified in a place called skull. So if you think you know why, then I guess you have hidden knowledge that is not in the scripture.

      How is Christ being crucified in a place called “skull” supposed to reveal to us those things which are not seen?

      We were “made enemies” IN OUR MINDS.

      What do you mean by this?

      That is where “we” CRUCIFIED OUR LORD. And because of that we “died” and we were “judged” (and found guilty) if the death of the Son of God.

      Did we crucify Christ in our minds?

      But regardless, we did not die because we crucified Christ. We are not the ones who crucified Christ. Scripture is clear, our spiritual death comes about because we learn the difference between right and wrong (Romans 7:9). Our physical death is because of what Adam did. People (the nations, from Matthew 25:31-46) will be gathered together (this is the resurrection of the dead, the righteous and the wicked, see discussion 2011/01/13 at 4:10 pm https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/does-matthew-25_33-46-speak-of-separating-mens-spirits-from-their-bodies/#comment-8938 ) and separated (judged and non-believers are punished in the lake of fire while believers live with God, see Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20-21).

      And the wrath of God was poured out upon us. And it is not until HE (who IS OUR LIFE) APPEARS (IN US) that WE appear with Him in glory (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory!). Until that time our life is HID WITH CHRIST in God.
      So, yes, it is appointed unto men once to die and, yes, after this comes judgment, but that has nothing to do with our physical death.

      It IS after out physical death that we are judged. We die spiritually when we learn the difference between right and wrong. But according to Revelation 20:13, the DEAD (from Hades) are judged according to what they had done (in life).
      Revelation 20:13

      The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

      It has to do with the fact that we “crucified” CHRIST (in a place called “A SKULL” = IN OUR MINDS). And it is a renewing OF OUR MINDS that brings us LIFE (from the dead – for “to be carnally minded IS DEATH”).
      We have to stop thinking that the shadows are all that there is! That which is seen is meant to show us those things that are not seen. They are not “the” truth, but they point us “to” THE TRUTH. And Paul very clearly tells us that we are suppose to be looking upon those things that are “not seen”. Isn’t that the only way that we can compare “spiritual things with spiritual”)?

      You seem like to pull bits and pieces of scripture and put them together in what I am sure is a cohesive idea in your mind. But the problem is that you do not include where you get the references from and so it is almost impossible to figure out whether what you are saying is actually plausible given the scripture references in context.

      It would save time if you would include at least the book and chapter and verse for each part of the idea you are putting together.

      I think I know the verses from where you seem to be pulling ideas, but without scripture reference and without explanation, you just are not making your point.

      WB:

      So what makes your lexicon any more accurate than the one I’m using?

      ME:
      Where did I say it does? Where did I even mention Lexicons? I know of no Lexicon (or Greek Scholar anywhere) who does not AGREE that the proper definition of the noun “aion” IS AGE. What I am appealing to are the rules of grammar AND the way the word is used in scripture. Not the way the word is “translated” but the way the word IS USED. Despite the definitions given by Webster or even your lexicon, the words it USED to refer to things that have BOTH a beginning and an end. That is A FACT. If it is a fact that you wish to ignore on the grounds of what you have been told the word means (regardless of the facts) then I have nothing more to say about it. I’m not asking you to take my word for it. Do some research.

      I dont take your word for anything. I HAVE researched. I find that the word is USED to mean things with no ending in time, no beginning in time, or both. YOU are the one ignoring facts.

      Which, to be honest, I think describes most of what you have tried to say that the Bible states.

      WB:
      According to you, we can never know what the words meant +2000 years ago.

      ME:
      Where did I say that? Though that may be true of some words (even your lexicon will tell you that), I’ve never said “we can never what the words meant +2000 years ago”. I know and you know that the “proper” definition of the Greek word “aion” IS AGE. You know and I know that the Greek word “aionios” is the adjective form of the noun “aion”. And I hope that we both know that this means that their meanings, though NOT THE SAME, ARE connected.

      You said,

      The fact that you have a modern day dictionary that tells you that “eternal” can mean any number of things, from “no end”, to “no beginning” to “no beginning or end” doesn’t prove that is what AIONIOS meant ~2000 YEARS AGO, Mr. Moore. That is how we use it TODAY and a lot of that has to do with it’s use in the bible and what most people believe it “means”. But the meanings of words can change (sometimes quite drastically) over time.

      So by your reasoning, we can not know what the words originally mean. So then there is no sense in discussing anything with you further, if that is the case.

      WB:

      Since that is the case, nothing in the bible can be trusted to be accurate or true. So why bother?

      ME:
      Please stop claiming I said things I didn’t.

      I am quoting you and taking your logic to the next level. If we cant know what the words originally meant, then we can’t trust the Bible.

      WB:

      I dont know if you have ever taken a calculus class, but there are the concepts of infinity, positive infinity, and negative infinity. The idea is that something can be infinite on both sides of zero, infinite on the positive side of zero, or infinite on the negative side of zero.
      This is what is meant by aionios. It can be eternal (on both sides of the center of time), it can be eternal from the start but with a definite end (no beginning, but an end), or it can be eternal from a definite start (a start, but no end).

      ME:
      I have no problem with “aionios” meaning INFINITE, Mr. Moore. I have said that before!! And I have no problem with “eternal” meaning INFINITE. But INFINITE only means that there is no end IN SIGHT, NOT that there is (absolutely) “no end”. And that is EXACTLY what the Hebrew word “olam” (the Hebrew equivalent of “aionios”) means. That is my point, exactly!!
      My problem is that you cannot claim that something has “no beginning” or “no end” when the scriptures say otherwise. The “ages” (aion) to which “eternal life” (“aionios zoe”) APPLIES have both a beginning and end, Mr. Moore. Not according to me, but according to the bible, the word of God.

      The word aionios does NOT mean age. It means eternal. The word aionios is USED to indicate no beginning in time and no end in time, or no beginning in time or no end in time. You can ignore that all you want. It wont change that fact.

      WB:

      God has said we have eternal life if we believe in Christ (John 3:16). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

      ME:
      Not necessarily! Though our LIFE will not come to an end, it is only called “eternal” (aionios) DURING “the ages”. That is why those who are SEEKING “immortality” are given “eternal life”. They are not the same, but they are BOTH “life”. And it is because we are given “immortality” that our life does not come to an end.

      OK, you have proven my point. There is NO END to our lives IF WE TRUST CHRIST.

      In fact, looking at the word for ‘immortality’ in Romans 2:7, it is Aphtharsia ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aphtharsia.html ), and means
      1. incorruption, perpetuity
      2. purity, sincerity, incorrupt

      So a better translation of Romans 2:7 would be, “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life.”

      We are not seeking immortality, but righteousness. We will get the righteousness of Christ imputed to us if we trust in Christ. We will live with God if we trust in Christ – He will be within us while we are physically alive, but we will be in HIS presence after our physical death IF WE TRUST IN CHRIST DURING OUR PHYSICAL LIFE. If we dont trust Christ during our physical life, we will be in the lake of fire.

      WB:

      God has said the wicked will go to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). This would be an example of there being a start, but no end.

      ME:
      It is AGE-DURING or AGE-ABIDE punishment. Have you ever studied the word translated “punishment”?

      I have. There are six different Greek words translated as punishment. Almost all of them mean punish, vengeance, retribution, judicial sentencing, penalty, justice. Only one word has a definition which could indicate correction.

      But regardless, the punishment would be for as long as people who are saved are in the presence of God – if you want to call that an age-during or age-abiding or eternal (as scripture does), I dont care. It is forever. We know it is forever because those who are judged go to the lake of fire while those who trusted in Christ live with God.

      We also know that judgement has not yet occurred, but will happen, because Paul wrote Timothy that Jesus is to judge the living and the dead.

      2 Timothy 4:1-4

      1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom : 2 preach the word ; be ready inseason and out of season ; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but wanting to have theirears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their owndesires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths

      WB:

      God has said He has saved us (believers) according to His purpose and grace which was granted to us from all eternity (2 Timothy 1:9). This would be an example of there being no start (before time began).

      ME:
      No “start” to salvation? How can that be when there was a beginning of creation?

      A point of confusion. No, I did not mean to say that salvation has no start, but that God granted grace to us from before time began (no beginning). God’s plan is outside of His creation. Therefore, it had no beginning in time. For this reason, God’s grace was granted us before creation (ie. “from all eternity”).

      And the Gospel (GOOD NEWS) was TO ALL MEN (not just believers). NONE start our as “believers”, Mr. Moore.

      The gospel was preached to all men. It is effective for those who believe.

      Christ died for us (and we were quickened together with him WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS (not after we believed).

      We see in Colossians 2:12-14 that we were raised with Christ through faith in the work of God and while dead in sin, God made us alive with Him, having forgiven our sins.

      12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgivenyou all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

      We see in Ephesians 1:15 that Paul said the Ephesians had their OWN faith in Jesus. We see in Ephesians 2:5 that these believers were made alive (quickened) with Christ when they were dead in sin by grace they were saved through faith (the grace,the faith, and salvation are all gifts).

      So from these two passages, we see that people who were dead in their sins were brought to life with Christ because our sins were forgiven because of the grace of God through faith they had been given by Christ and seated us together with Christ in heaven (this is a spiritual truth we will live when we are physically dead).

      Ephesians 1:15-2:10

      15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation inthe knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named ,not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : 22 And hath put all things under hisfeet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, thefulness of him that filleth all in all.

      1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in timepast ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of theflesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God,who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;) 6 And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not ofyourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast . 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforeordained that we should walk in them.

      These posts are getting way too long and taking way too much time to answer. I’ll have to come back for the rest. But I can’t keep addressing 10 and 11 pages worth of replies. I just don’t have the time. Is there a way to narrow some of this down?

      It is all about eternal life, eternal punishment, salvation of believers. Those are the things that are most important, it seems to me. Can you think of a way to shorten this?

  25. Sorry for all the typos. I am trying to answer and work at the same time. I’ll try to take more time later so I don’t have to rush and my fingers can keep up with my brain.

    • No problem. I understand.

      To use quotes, put the text inside blockquote tags, with each tag within less-than (<) and greater-than (>)signs. The end tag has a slash (/) after the less-than sign.
      <blockquote>
      text you are quoting goes here.
      </blockquote>

  26. WB:
    Jesus said the wicked people will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). This might be an example of no beginning (ie, created before time began), and no end (we see in Revelation that it will continue to exist after the new heaven and earth are created), or if not, then it is an example of a start but no end.

    ME:
    Anything that is “created” has a beginning. And, yes, there is “no end” to the kingdom of God. But scripture actually says “no end” in that case, it does not say “aionios”.

    WB:
    Ie, God is eternal (1 Timothy 1:17). This would be an example of no beginning or end.

    ME:
    Yes, God is eternal. But Christ reigns as king only UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed, then he turns the kingdom over to the Father. So if “aionios” actually means “forever and ever” than Rev 11:15 contradicts 1 Cor 15:28.

    WB:
    What is your point with that statement?

    ME:
    That scripture says their Covenant with death and hell will be disannulled.

    WB:
    I am saying that the idea of before eternity is before creation began – in the beginning.
    Eternity means without beginning or end, without end, or without beginning – as I stated to begin with.

    Me:
    That which took place before creation, to place IN ETERNITY. So how you claim that “before eternity began” actually means “before creation”? You are accusing me of just making words mean whatever I want, but isn’t that what you are doing now? There is no way that you make “before eternity” mean “before creation”. That which was “before creations” was eternity.

    I agree. But something can be without beginning or end, without beginning, or without end.

    ME:
    Absolutely. But that doesn’t prove that “aionios” always means without beginning or without end or without either. Only God has no beginning and no end. Everything else has, at least, a beginning. And some things have no end (LIFE). But that doesn’t prove that either “aionios zoe” or “aionios kolasis” mean life and punishment “without end”. You admit yourself that aionios CAN MEAN something other than “without beginning or end”. But you won’t admit that this also means that “eternal life” and/or “eternal punishment” CAN MEAN something other than life and/or punishment that has “no end”.

    WB:
    Not everyone will be quickened (made alive).

    ME:
    We were quickened together with Christ EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, Mr. Moore. We have already been quickened together with Him. We have already been baptized into His death. What we are striving to know is THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION. (Phi 3:10) And we know that ALL who died in Adam, shall be made alive in Christ.

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Now you can claim that the “all” who died in Adam are not the same “all” who are made alive in Christ, but that is exactly what Paul said. As in Adam ALL… so in Christ ALL. He didn’t say “all who believe”. If he meant:”Even though all died in Adam, all who believe shall be made alive in Christ” that is what he would have said. It isn’t. But how many of us what to change the meaning of “all” or make “qualifications” about who the “all” are (ie “all believers) when those qualifications are not made by Paul? You’ll accuse me of changing the meaning of words, but those on the other side of this argument do that very same thing all the time.

    Paul speaks of this in his letter to the Romans, as well:

    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

    Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The same MANY (ALL) who were MADE SINNNERS by ONE MAN’S DISOBEDIENCE are the MANY (ALL) who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by THE OBEDIANCE OF ONE MAN!

    WB:
    According Ephesians 2:1-9, it was not all the dead who were made alive with Christ. Paul states that we were made alive with Christ (saved) through faith – and it obviously happened in this physical life. People who do NOT believe are NOT quickened.
    Ephesians 2:1-9

    ME:
    You are not comparing apples to apples. I never said all are quickened TO ETERNAL LIFE. I have already agreed with you that only those who believe HAVE “eternal life”, only those who believe HAVE PASSED “from death unto life”. That has nothing to do with IMMORTALITY.

    Paul did not say ALL WHO DIED IN ADAM shall be given “eternal life”. He said all who died in Adam shall be MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

    We ALL get LIFE… only those who believe get “ETERNAL” life (LIFE NOW, in the ages, while we are MORTAL). .

    WB:
    Believers were raised with Christ through faith. Believers had their sins forgiven, but this is not the case for unbelievers.
    Colossians 2:5-14

    ME:
    That happened WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, Mr. Moore. Which means it happened BEFORE WE BELIEVE, WHIILE WE WERE DEAD. That applies to everyone, not just those who have COME to believe. Those who have COME to believe HAVE “eternal life”, they HAVE PASSED from death unto life (after a spiritual truth). Again, that has nothing to do with immortality and the fact that ALL will be MADE ALIVE in Christ. That ALL THINGS will become NEW. For ALL THINGS BEGAN in Him and ALL THINGS END in Him. For OF HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS!

    Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    Eph 1:8-10 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are IN HEAVEN, AND which are ON EARTH; even IN HIM:

    God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself… creating IN HIM – ONE NEW MAN… reconcile both (JEW AND GENTILE) unto God in one body by the cross. (Eph 2:15-16)

    WB:
    Unbelievers will not get eternal life nor immortality, but wrath and indignation.
    Romans 2:5c-8

    ME:
    SERIOUSLY???? So those who are RESURRECTED into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT are NOT IMMORTAL?? What are they, then???? How in the world can anyone be given wrath and indignation / punishment WITH NO END if they have not been given IMMORTALITY, Mr. Moore? Are you sure you want to claim that unbelievers are not given immortality?

    WB:
    I know the covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant. (Genesis 17:7,13, 19). It was not replaced.
    But where do you see the the old covenant was considered an everlasting one?

    ME:
    It was signified IN HIS FLESH through circumcision (that ENDED). How about the other examples I gave. Why did you just drop those? Because it is obvious to you that they DID come to AN END, even though they were called “everlasting”?

    WB:
    I have held from the beginning that aionios means
    1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    2. without beginning
    3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
    By the way, the Hebrew word owlam is not an exact translation of the Greek word aionios, though they are similar.
    Owlam means:
    1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    a. ancient time, long time (of past)
    b. (of future)
    1. for ever, always
    2. continuous existence, perpetual
    3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
    ME:
    Good grief!! You can’t tell just from those definition that they mean the same thing?

    Are you familiar with the Greek Septuagint, Mr. Moore? It is the OT translated into Greek. And when translated into Greek the Hebrew word “owlam” was translated “aionios”. So they are “similar” enough to be considered “equivalents” between Hebrew and Greek. And when the OT was translated INTO GREEK, the word “aionios” was used in the same passages that “ `owlam “ appears in the OT, as “everlasting”, even when referring to things that came TO AN END.

    WB:
    Ok. Here’s a misunderstanding. I was not saying you got the idea of universalism from the encyclopedia, I was saying you got the idea that “the first 500 years of the church the doctrine of “apokastasis” (the salvation of all men) was the predominate teaching/belief” from the encyclopedia.

    ME:
    Yes, when I re-read what you said I realized that that may have been what you meant.

    WB:
    To be clear, the quote from the encyclopedia you told me about mentioned Origen, but it was about Apocatastasis itself (the link even has that word in it) and stated, “Apocatastasis are decidedly in the minority.”

    ME:
    It is! And it was at the time of Origen, as well. That doesn’t mean it WAS before that, in the earliest years of the church. And obviously it wasn’t or the author of the encyclopedia contradicted himself. And the fact that Universalism was taught at Alexandria (the ONLY Christian school of theology for over 150 years (if I recall correctly) and was also taught at 3 of the other 6 earliest schools of theology (making it 4 out of 6, with the other two teaching annihilation at one and eternal torment at other) shows just how common it was. So what shall we believe? That the earliest Christians, the ones closest to the Apostles got it wrong and most people believed a lie for the first 500 years of the church? Or that the truth gave way to a lie as others came into the church seeking disciples after themselves and teaching the doctrines of demons as the truth of God? The doctrine of eternal torment gained popularity with Augustine. Do you know anything about him?

    WB:
    thank you. Here’s the link to that quote: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12.u.ii.html#u.ii-Page_96

    ME:
    Thank you! Now doesn’t that say what I said? Do you not believe it, anyway?

    • WB:

      Jesus said the wicked people will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). This might be an example of no beginning (ie, created before time began), and no end (we see in Revelation that it will continue to exist after the new heaven and earth are created), or if not, then it is an example of a start but no end.

      ME:
      Anything that is “created” has a beginning. And, yes, there is “no end” to the kingdom of God. But scripture actually says “no end” in that case, it does not say “aionios”.

      Prepared does not necessarily mean created. Such is the case in the use of this word. It is Hetoimazo ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/hetoimazo.html ).

      WB:

      Ie, God is eternal (1 Timothy 1:17). This would be an example of no beginning or end.

      ME:
      Yes, God is eternal. But Christ reigns as king only UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed, then he turns the kingdom over to the Father. So if “aionios” actually means “forever and ever” than Rev 11:15 contradicts 1 Cor 15:28.

      No. Aionios is not used in Revelation 11:15. Go look. The word translated as ‘ever’ in Revelation 11:15 is not ‘aionios’, but ‘aion’ ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/aion.html ).

      So, no the two verses would not in contradiction. God used ‘aion’ to indicate ‘age’. So it is appropriate to translate it as ‘aion’. At the end of the age and age, Christ will have subdued all things and then He will be subject to the Father.

      My point is that these are examples of the word aionios that are in keeping with its meanings, not with the idea of ‘age’.

      WB:

      What is your point with that statement?

      ME:
      That scripture says their Covenant with death and hell will be disannulled.

      But it never said it was an everlasting covenant.

      WB:
      I am saying that the idea of before eternity is before creation began – in the beginning.
      Eternity means without beginning or end, without end, or without beginning – as I stated to begin with.
      Me:
      That which took place before creation, to place IN ETERNITY. So how you claim that “before eternity began” actually means “before creation”? You are accusing me of just making words mean whatever I want, but isn’t that what you are doing now? There is no way that you make “before eternity” mean “before creation”. That which was “before creations” was eternity.

      This argument has gotten so convoluted, I can’t recall who said what or why. :)
      Ok, after reviewing the comments, I have said that the meaning of eternal is ‘without beginning or end”, “without end”, or “without beginning”. So “before eternal time” would be before time was created. Time would be a construct of creation.

      WB

      I agree. But something can be without beginning or end, without beginning, or without end.

      ME:
      Absolutely. But that doesn’t prove that “aionios” always means without beginning or without end or without either.

      Not necessarily. As I said, the lake of fire was prepared for Satan and the angels. But no where in the Bible are we told of the creation of the lake of fire. We do not know when/if it was created. We only know it exists and was prepared for Satan and his angels.

      Only God has no beginning and no end. Everything else has, at least, a beginning. And some things have no end (LIFE). But that doesn’t prove that either “aionios zoe” or “aionios kolasis” mean life and punishment “without end”. You admit yourself that aionios CAN MEAN something other than “without beginning or end”. But you won’t admit that this also means that “eternal life” and/or “eternal punishment” CAN MEAN something other than life and/or punishment that has “no end”.

      I dont think we CAN say everything else has a beginning, at least as far as the lake of fire is concerned, as we know nothing of it other than it was prepared for Satan.

      Using the definition of aionios (‘without beginning or end”, “without end”, or “without beginning”), then by definition, if it had a beginning, it has no ending.

      WB:

      Not everyone will be quickened (made alive).

      ME:
      We were quickened together with Christ EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, Mr. Moore. We have already been quickened together with Him. We have already been baptized into His death. What we are striving to know is THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION. (Phi 3:10) And we know that ALL who died in Adam, shall be made alive in Christ.
      1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
      Now you can claim that the “all” who died in Adam are not the same “all” who are made alive in Christ, but that is exactly what Paul said. As in Adam ALL… so in Christ ALL. He didn’t say “all who believe”.

      If he meant:”Even though all died in Adam, all who believe shall be made alive in Christ” that is what he would have said. It isn’t. But how many of us what to change the meaning of “all” or make “qualifications” about who the “all” are (ie “all believers) when those qualifications are not made by Paul? You’ll accuse me of changing the meaning of words, but those on the other side of this argument do that very same thing all the time.

      I think there is a point of confusion here.

      The word translated as ‘made alive’ in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is ‘Zoopoieo’ ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/zoopoieo.html ). This means:

      1. to produce alive, begat or bear living young
      2. to cause to live, make alive, give life
        a. by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
        b. to restore to life
        c. to give increase of life: thus of physical life
        d. of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
      3. metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

      The word translated as ‘quicken together with’ in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 is Suzoopoieo ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/suzoopoieo.html ). This means:

      1. to make one alive together
        a. of Christians, with Christ

      Yes, All will be made alive, as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:22. But this is not the same thing as being made alive with Christ as we see in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13. To be made alive with Christ takes faith. But everyone will be brought back to life, restored to life, to be judged. This is what is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:22.

      Paul speaks of this in his letter to the Romans, as well:
      *snip of Romans 5:15-21 KJV

      The same MANY (ALL) who were MADE SINNNERS by ONE MAN’S DISOBEDIENCE are the MANY (ALL) who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by THE OBEDIANCE OF ONE MAN!

      To understand this correctly, we need to look at all of Romans 5. Notice in verses 1-2 that Paul is saying that we have been justified by faith, and so we have peace with God through Christ by God’ grace. That is to say, believers have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ, by the grace of God.

      We see in verse 6 that while we were helpless, Christ died for the ungodly. In verse 8, we see that because of God’s love, Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

      Notice in verse 9 that because we have been justified by His blood and we will be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Now recall, the “we” is those people who have been justified by faith and have peace with God. That is to say, believers.

      We see in verse 12-14 that through one man sin entered the world. We see that Adam is a type of Him who was to come (Jesus). But the free gift is NOT like the transgression. From the sin of Adam judgement resulting in condemnation came for many. Here we see the many are represented by Adam, so the many would be considered to be sinners. But the grace of God and the gift by the grace of Christ abound to the many.

      Here we see the many represented by Christ, so these many would be those who are considered to be righteous. Who is righteous? Those whose sins are forgiven, believers in Christ. We see this in verse 16 where we see the free gift results in justification (declaration of innocence). Those who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign in life through Christ. This only needs to be received.

      So through the disobedience of Adam the sinner, many were made sinners. In the same way, through the obedience of Christ the righteous, many will be made righteous. This second ‘many’ is not referring to all. We know that not all will be considered righteous, as Jesus said, in Romans 7:21,”Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”

      No, the gift will show God’s grace through righteousness to eternal life. That is to say, that those who have faith have been justified (are considered righteous with the righteousness of Christ) and have eternal life.

      All will be raised to life, but this does not mean all will have eternal life. The ones without eternal life will face judgement and eternal punishment.

      Romans 5 (NASB).

      1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand ; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in ourtribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance ; 4 and perseverance, proven character ; and proven character, hope ; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man ; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and deaththrough sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned – 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned ; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase ; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life throughJesus Christ our Lord.

      We see in Romans 6:23 that the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

      For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      WB:

      According Ephesians 2:1-9, it was not all the dead who were made alive with Christ. Paul states that we were made alive with Christ (saved) through faith – and it obviously happened in this physical life. People who do NOT believe are NOT quickened.
      Ephesians 2:1-9

      ME:
      You are not comparing apples to apples. I never said all are quickened TO ETERNAL LIFE. I have already agreed with you that only those who believe HAVE “eternal life”, only those who believe HAVE PASSED “from death unto life”. That has nothing to do with IMMORTALITY.
      Paul did not say ALL WHO DIED IN ADAM shall be given “eternal life”. He said all who died in Adam shall be MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST.
      We ALL get LIFE… only those who believe get “ETERNAL” life (LIFE NOW, in the ages, while we are MORTAL). .

      You and I disagree that eternal life is NOW in the ages while we are mortal. Eternal life begins when we have faith and continues after our physical death and continues in the new heaven and earth.

      Eternal punishment begins after unbelievers die physically and are judged on Judgement day and are sent into the lake of fire.

      WB:

      Believers were raised with Christ through faith. Believers had their sins forgiven, but this is not the case for unbelievers.
      Colossians 2:5-14

      ME:
      That happened WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, Mr. Moore. Which means it happened BEFORE WE BELIEVE, WHIILE WE WERE DEAD.

      You are missing verse 12: “having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”

      This tells us that believers were raised through faith in what God worked. This is not the same thing as we see in 1 corinthian 15:22.

      That applies to everyone, not just those who have COME to believe. Those who have COME to believe HAVE “eternal life”, they HAVE PASSED from death unto life (after a spiritual truth). Again, that has nothing to do with immortality and the fact that ALL will be MADE ALIVE in Christ. That ALL THINGS will become NEW. For ALL THINGS BEGAN in Him and ALL THINGS END in Him. For OF HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS!

      Again, you are confusing being made alive with Christ and being made alive.

      Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

      Yes, but how is that relevant to this conversation?

      Eph 1:8-10 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are IN HEAVEN, AND which are ON EARTH; even IN HIM:
      God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself… creating IN HIM – ONE NEW MAN… reconcile both (JEW AND GENTILE) unto God in one body by the cross. (Eph 2:15-16)

      To understand this correctly, you have to look at the context.
      The Ephesians 1 passage is in the context of the faithful in Christ (v1). Believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in heaven (v3). Believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (v4) to be holy and blameless. Believers were predestined to be adopted as children through Christ (v5). In Christ, believers have redemptions through His blood. This redemption is the forgiveness of our sins.

      Christ is bring all things into subjection to Him (but this does not mean everyone will be children of God) – verse 10. Believers have obtained an inheritance. In Christ, after hearing the gospel they believed and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

      Ephesians 1:1-14

      1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus : 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

      Paul is obviously speaking TO believers, who were made alive with Christ and saved by grace. God raised believers up with Christ and seated them with Christ in heaven.

      The two men were not reconciled together into the man of faith.

      They were made into one group (humanity). Everyone now has access to God through Christ (are reconciled to God) by grace through faith – if we have that faith. IF, and only IF, we have that faith, we are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.

      Ephesians 2:4-22

      4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands – 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR ; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

      WB:

      Unbelievers will not get eternal life nor immortality, but wrath and indignation.
      Romans 2:5c-8

      ME:
      SERIOUSLY???? So those who are RESURRECTED into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT are NOT IMMORTAL?? What are they, then???? How in the world can anyone be given wrath and indignation / punishment WITH NO END if they have not been given IMMORTALITY, Mr. Moore? Are you sure you want to claim that unbelievers are not given immortality?

      I can how see you would call it immortality. I think its called eternal punishment in the eternal fire.
      As I wrote earlier, the word translated immortality is better translated incorruption.

      WB:

      I know the covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant. (Genesis 17:7,13, 19). It was not replaced.
      But where do you see the the old covenant was considered an everlasting one?

      ME:
      It was signified IN HIS FLESH through circumcision (that ENDED).

      I still do not see the old covenant was considered eternal. I know it was conditional and the Hebrews did not keep their part in it.

      How about the other examples I gave. Why did you just drop those? Because it is obvious to you that they DID come to AN END, even though they were called “everlasting”?

      No. I must have missed them. I’ll see if I can find them.

      Ok. Found them. Hebrews 13:20, Isaiah 55:3-8 and jeremiah 32:37-40, Ezekiel 37:26-28 are ALL referring to the New Covenant.

      WB:

      I have held from the beginning that aionios means
      1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
      2. without beginning
      3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

      By the way, the Hebrew word owlam is not an exact translation of the Greek word aionios, though they are similar.
      Owlam means:
      1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
      a. ancient time, long time (of past)
      b. (of future)
      1. for ever, always
      2. continuous existence, perpetual
      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

      ME:
      Good grief!! You can’t tell just from those definition that they mean the same thing?

      They do not necessarily mean the same thing. I speak two languages. I know that there are nuances in one that can be lost in the other when you do translations, unless you take pains to make a dynamic translation, which can then result in missing the message.

      Are you familiar with the Greek Septuagint, Mr. Moore? It is the OT translated into Greek. And when translated into Greek the Hebrew word “owlam” was translated “aionios”. So they are “similar” enough to be considered “equivalents” between Hebrew and Greek. And when the OT was translated INTO GREEK, the word “aionios” was used in the same passages that “ `owlam “ appears in the OT, as “everlasting”, even when referring to things that came TO AN END.

      Every mention of everlasting covenant you gave refers to the new covenant.

      WB:

      thank you. Here’s the link to that quote:http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12.u.ii.html#u.ii-Page_96

      ME:
      Thank you! Now doesn’t that say what I said? Do you not believe it, anyway?

      The book contradicts itself. So that calls into question both statements in my mind.

  27. Cool, I wasn’t sure if that’s how you were doing it or not.. I’ve never used html codes in comments on WordPress before and didn’t want to “try” it and have it not work and end with a bunch of codes in my text.

  28. Rather than quote and reply, quote and reply, I am just going to try and address each point one at a time this time, so hopefully it won’t be so long… hopefully. :)

    1. You are the one who said “created”, not me. I was addressing your words, not scripture, so what does it matter what “Hetoimazo” means? What does it have to do with my comment?

    2. I was not claiming that “aionios” can be found in Rev 11:15. But that was my fault for not being more clear. But since you agree that Christ does NOT rule “forever and ever” but only “unto the ages of the ages” why don’t you have a problem with “εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων” being rendered “forever and ever” (INCORRECTLY). And if “εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων” was rendered incorrectly (throughout the NT) what makes you so sure that “aionios” is rendered correctly? It is the adjective of “aion” (“age”) after all.

    3. What does their agreement with hell being disannulled have to do with it not being called “an everlasting covenant”? My point is was DISANNULLED, it was NOT ALLOWED TO STAND. You are the one claiming hell lasts “forever”. Hoe can that be in man’s covenant with it is broken? Not allowed to stand? Disannulled?

    4. YES!! Time is a construct of creation. AMEN!!! So if I say God promised me “eternal life” BEFORE “eternal times” began, how in the world can I be talking about “eternity”? In both cases, the “life” and the “times” are being modified by the adjective “aionios”. That “aionois” LIFE takes place IN/DURING those “aionios” TIMES. And those “times” had a beginning and (though you don’t believe it, I guess) they have an end. Time is not part of eternity.

    5. No we are not told how or when the lake of fire was created, but we are told that OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE, right? And what does it say in Malachi about the coming of the day of the Lord? Doesn’t it say: “he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”? You place that way out still into the future, but that is not when Malachi placed it. Malachi speaks of the one who is sent before Him to “prepare the way of the Lord”. And Jesus Christ himself said that this was fulfilled by John the Baptist (~2000 years ago). He also said: “I am come to send fire on the earth”. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit AND FIRE. Could it be that “the lake of fire” is not some literal life way out in the distance somewhere, yet to be revealed and have the wicked cast into it, but OGD HIMSELF, into whom we have ALL been baptized? That NOW is the judgment of this world and it’s judged BY FIRE? Even that “eternal fire” which reigns down from heaven on to the earth to CONSUME THE WICKED?

    6. Now you say “all are made alive” but before you said not all get immorality. I’m not sure what your definition of “immortal” is, but you seem to know that all are made alive. Why the contradiction? What is your definition of “immortality” that you would think that it’s given to only believers? Also remember that “death” was destroyed, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot still “sleep”. And even those who “sleep in Jesus” will God bring with him. Most claim that Paul was referring to physically dead “believers”, but why would Paul need to comfort believers about other believers? Since when do believers “mourn” for other believers as if they have “no hope”?

    7. I didn’t say that “even so in Christ shall all be made alive” is speaking of “eternal life”. My point was that they are NOT the same thing. Eternal (aionios) life is the life we HAVE as believers DURING “aionios” TIMES (now). But the fact that all who DIED are MADE ALIVE proves that there will be none who continue to abide in death – death having been destroyed, right? So to believe that some continue to exist in a place of punishment and torment (hell) for all eternity is to say that there is “life” in hell and that is not what “life” is. In fact, death is not even physical. Physical death is simply a shadow of our spiritual reality. The death that we need to be redeemed from is not physical death, if that were the case believers would not ever die, even physically. But Jesus was not talking about the flesh when He said; “those who live and believe shall never die”, for the flesh profits nothing. When Adam died he died spiritually, he was separated from communion with God. The same is true for us and HELL HAS NO VICTORY. Death is SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE!!

    7. It is not just believers that have been reconciled to God through Christ, Mr. Moore. Scriptures is very clear that God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their (THE WORLD’S) trespassed against them. So to say that “believers have been reconciled to God” is to contradict the scriptures. Now I know that you think your understanding is better than mine and I am using a poor translation (yet I use more the KJV, I have about 5 or 6 at home and can access even more online , I just happen to like the KJV) but Paul could not have been more clear when he said it was THE WORLD that was reconciled to God. Nor John when he said that Christ atoned for not only the sins of believers, but the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD. So how you quote that Christ “died for the ungodly” but not understand what it means in relation to the salvation of all men (for NONE were righteous and NONE were seeking the Lord) is beyond me. But AMEN!! Christ died FOR THE UNGODLY. He died FOR US even when we were DEAD IN SINS. Hallelujah! Now that is some GOOD NEWS!! No?

    8. Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever say that anyone has to “accept” God’s “free gift” in order to receive it. Such a gift is NOT FREE if there are STRINGS ATTACHED. Paul is very clear in Rom 5 that by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation and by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life. The first “all men” doesn’t refer to all men, while the second “all men” refers only to “believers”. If Paul meant “all believers” he would have said “all believers”. Paul and John both go to the trouble of making it clear that it is NOT “just believers” who are saved or for whose sins Christ’s blood atoned. Even if we BELIEVE NOT, yet HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL for He cannot deny HIMSELF. We are HIS BODY, Mr. Moore. That was accomplished at the cross of Christ when, even when we were dead in sins, we were quickened together WITH HIM. We HAVE BEEN buried with Him and WE SHALL ALSO live with Him. He is THE BEGINNING and THE END. All things had their beginning IN HIM and all things shall have their end IN HIM. God has gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth. (Eph 1:10).

    9. You claim that “eternal life” begins now but “eternal punishment” begins after physical death. How can that be when they both happen at the same time? Aren’t the sheep separated from the goats at the same time? One on the right (to eternal life) and the other on the left (to everlasting punishment)? This presents the same problem for those who claim that are TWO resurrections separated by a thousand years. Scriptures says that this is “A” resurrection of both the just and the unjust and Jesus Christ says that “HE” is “THE” resurrection and “THE” life. That is why Paul said that he was striving to know the power of HIS (CHRIST’S) RESURRECTION, as that is how you have part in THE FIRST resurrection. There is only ONE resurrection that counts and we need to have part IN IT, by being found IN HIM (who was raised from the dead… and WE WITH HIM).

    10. No, I didn’t miss verse 12 of Col 2. it supports what I said. And the verse that I referenced (that you were responding to) was from Eph, so why did you jump back to 1 Cor 15:22 to tell me they aren’t the same thing? I have already said, many times, that while all are “made alive in Christ” that not all have “eternal life”. But that doesn’t mean that we were not ALL “quickened together with Christ” TOGETHER, even when we were dead in sins. So while there may be a “difference” it’s only in WHEN we come to KNOW GOD AND JESUS CHRIST. Those who come to know that NOW are already walking in “the newness of life”. Those who come don’t yet know it “sleep in Jesus” and their life IS HID (TO THEM) in Christ with God. Many will PASS from death unto life HERE by FAITH. But those who do not have still been MADE ALIVE in Christ. They just have not been given that revelation yet. Not all have this KNOWLEDGE. But not knowing the truth, doesn’t change the truth, does it? So you saying that I am “confusing being made alive in Christ with being made alive” makes no sense. There is only ONE LIFE and that LIFE is IN THE SON. There is NO OTHER WAY to be “made alive” but IN CHRIST.

    11. Rom 11:36 is relevant to the conversation because ALL THINGS BEGIN AND END IN CHRIST. How can that be true and your idea of hell also be true?

    12. In what “context” does “…that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in him:” not mean exactly what it says? Claiming that I cannot understand that properly unless I understand that Paul is addressing believers is just plain silly. Paul could have been talking to a herd of cows and that wouldn’t change what he said, Mr. Moore. What he is referring to happened at the cross, that is when all things were gathered together in one – even in Christ. And that happened, even when we were dead in sins. I know I keep saying that and you keep ignoring it, but that is what Paul said. That is THE GOOD NEWS (ie; the gospel of Jesus Christ). We are told to take that gospel (good news) TO THE WORLD. The gospel is not “for believers”, Mr. Moore. It is for unbelievers. Believers already know the good news!! So repeating everything Paul said and ADDING to each proclamation the word “believers” is to change what Paul said. Paul did NOT limit what he said to “believers”. You read that into the passage because of your own personal beliefs about who is and who isn’t saved. But those words are not there, you are adding them. And it makes no sense to even believe that God “predestinated” only a few people to salvation when scriptures says He WILL HAVE “ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”. You say I make God out to be liar, but you are claiming that wants to save all men, but can’t (or won’t) yet he PREDESTINATED those who ARE saved TO BE saved. And please don’t tell me that “predestinated” doesn’t really mean predestinated, that God just “knew” who would believe and who wouldn’t and those whom he “knew” would believe were “predestinated” unto salvation. That’s not predestination, that’s foreknowledge. And Paul is not saying that God “knew” who receive the adoption of sons, but that He ORDAINED US BEFORE HAND UNTO IT…. US… ALL OF US…. According to the good please OF HIS WILL – not man’s and not based on what we “did” or “didn’t do”, that is why it took place “even when we were dead in sins”. You keep wanting to ignore that, as if it means something else, even when you quote it back to me. Even the NASB says we were “MADE ALIVE with Christ EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN TRANSGRESSION”. That is so amazing! And you skip right over it as it is says “when we believed”. You quote back the NASB as if it says something different than the KJV and neither one says “you were saved because you believed”. They both say we were saved “even when we were DEAD”. The DEAD cannot resurrect themselves, Mr. Moore. The DEAD cannot give themselves LIFE. The DEAD can HAVE FAITH, it has to be GIVEN TO THEM and it cannot be given to them until they are RAISED from the dead. Man plays NO PART in that. So if God is willing to do it FOR ONE or TWO, or a thousand or ten thousand or a million (etc), please tell me why he will not do it FOR ALL, when it is HIS WILL for ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. And if that is GOD’S WILL and He works ALL THINGS according to counsel OF HIS OWN WILL, how can we claim that salvation is up to man and the will of God

    13: If you can’t even say that unbelievers are given immortality, because of your belief in eternal torment, then I don’t think there’s even a point in continuing this conversation. Of course, immortality is incorruption. This MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY and this corruptible must put on INCORRUPTION. (And, yes, I know the word for “immortality” is not the same in both verses, but the word for “incorruption” in 1 Cor is the same as the word for “immortality” in Rom. Are you going to claim that Paul is only talking about believers in 1 Cor 15 when speaking of the resurrection of the dead?

    14: Not all references to an “everlasting covenant” are about the New Covenant. The circumcision of the flesh was said to be an everlasting covenant. But since Abraham was justified BY FAITH I won’t try and argue the point. But I gave you a list of others things that were called “everlasting” (besides the covenant). But that’s ok. I can see that this conversation is going nowhere and it’s just becoming a huge waste of time for both of us.

    15. The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge did not contradict itself. Just because the writers defending the doctrine of Apocatastasis were in the minority when the greatest amount of apposition arose, doesn’t disprove the other facts given about what the state of the church (and its seminaries) were prior to that. And even the quote that you provided from the encyclopedia supports what I said about Augustine being one of the predominate forces involved in its overthrow. But if you would rather believe that the authors of an encyclopedia of such massive volume of work can’t be trusted just because you’d rather not even have to entertain those types of facts, then (again) I think we are finished here. But I pray one day you’ll actually be willing to investigate the facts and consider something other than what “the majority” (today) says is “true” and investigate this matter further.
    I don’t think I am going to get back to the other comment that I started on earlier today. Perhaps I should have done that first before coming to read another one, but I didn’t. I appreciate your time. I know how much time it takes to put together all of these replies; that’s why I just can’t see doing it anymore, when we are really not making any headway at all. You believe and I believe differently. You stand with the majority and I’m nothing but a single mom who loves the Lord and the scriptures that bear witness to him. Perhaps one day they will reveal to you the same Lord and Saviour of the world that I see. Perhaps not. But let God be true and every man a liar. I put my trust in Him and in Him alone and I trust him not only for my own salvation but for the salvation of all men.

    Well, longer than I was hoping, but not too too bad, I guess. :)

    Thanks again.

    • Christine said,
      1. You are the one who said “created”, not me. I was addressing your words, not scripture, so what does it matter what “Hetoimazo” means? What does it have to do with my comment?
      It matters because the lake of fire was prepared (Hetoimazo) for Satan and his angels, but we are not told when or how.The lake of fire might be an example of having eternal where there no beginning and no ending. I said, “ie. created before time began” to indicate it existed before time existed. You wanted to argue it had a beginning because I gave an example of how it could have been created before time. You said,
      2. I was not claiming that “aionios” can be found in Rev 11:15. But that was my fault for not being more clear.
      Thank you for your graciousness here. You went on:
      But since you agree that Christ does NOT rule “forever and ever” but only “unto the ages of the ages”
      Ok, follow along with me here. you said, “So if “aionios” actually means “forever and ever”, Rev 11:15 contradicts 1 Cor 15:28”. I said “the word translated as ever’ in Revelation 11:15 is not ‘aionios’, but ‘aion’. So, no the two verses would not in contradiction. God used ‘aion’ to indicate ‘age’. So it is appropriate to translate it as ‘aion’. At the end of the age and age, Christ will have subdued all things and then He will be subject to the Father. My point is that these are examples of the word aionios that are in keeping with its meanings, not with the idea of ‘age’.” That is to say that one definition of aion is age. Another is forever. Either would be correct. We do not know how long an age is. We DO know that God will put all things except Himself as subject to Christ. When all thing are subjected to Christ, then even Christ will be subject to God the Father (1 Corinthians 15:27-28). However, we also know that His kingdom will not be destroyed (Daniel 7:13-14). In fact, Luke tell us it will never end (Luke 1:33). We see in Revelation 11:15 that Christ will reign forever (with the word aion). So then we have to understand these texts in a way that allows them all to be true. I think the easiest way to understand this is to translate aion as forever. But since age would also be an appropriate translation, we have to understand that we do not know how long an age is. What we know is that Christ’s kingdom lasts longer than the age of the heavens and earth because we see in Revelation 22:3 that Christ is still on His throne in the new Jerusalem. So it seems to me that The Son maintains His place on the throne while recognizing the superior throne of the Father and subjecting Himself to the Father (who had subjected everything to the Son). So since Aion means age, perhaps the best translation of Revelation 11:15 is “15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ” The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign <strong>ages to ages</strong>.”” 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
      27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS INSUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evidentthat He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
      Daniel 7:13-14
      13 “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son ofMan was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14″And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not passaway ; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
      Luke 1:33
      32 “He will begreat and will be called the Son of the Most High ; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David ; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”
      Revelation 11:15
      15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ” The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
      Revelation 22:3
      3 There will no longer be any curse ; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
      You wrote,
      why don’t you have a problem with “εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων” being rendered “forever and ever” (INCORRECTLY). And if “εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων” was rendered incorrectly (throughout the NT) what makes you so sure that “aionios” is rendered correctly? It is the adjective of “aion” (“age”) after all.
      We have been over this. Aion ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aion.html ) means: for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age. Aionios ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aionios.html ) means: “without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; without beginning; without end, never to cease, everlasting.” So it is not wrong to render aion as age OR forever. We simply have to realize we do not know how long an age (perpetuity, for ever) is. Neither is it wrong to render Aionios as eternal, since it can be without beginning or end, or without beginning, or without end, never to cease, everlasting. If it is OK to call God the ETERNAL (AIONIOS) God, then that should tell you there is REALLY eternal (without end) punishment and eternal (without end) life and not merely to an age. More than that, we see that the lake of fire is in existance during the time of the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:8). Its amazing to me how universalists want to drive a stake in the ground of the meaning of aion and ignore or redefine the meaning of aionios. As if forever is some how shorter because they dont want accept that God WILL PUNISH FOREVER those who reject what God has done (sent Christ). You said,
      3. What does their agreement with hell being disannulled have to do with it not being called “an everlasting covenant”? My point is was DISANNULLED, it was NOT ALLOWED TO STAND. You are the one claiming hell lasts “forever”. Hoe can that be in man’s covenant with it is broken? Not allowed to stand? Disannulled?
      Are you really sure you have read the bible, or even the verse in question? OR did you just clip this from some universalist web site and not even look to see if they were correct? Take a look at the covenant which the Hebrews made with death and hell: Isaiah 28:15
      Because ye have said , We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through , it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
      NOTICE that the covenant was not an everlasting covenant. The Jews agreed with death and hell that when the scourge passed through, death and hell would not come to them. They made lies their refuge instead of GOD. But GOD did away with that covenant. God , because of His righteousness, holiness, and justice, HAD to punish the liars to suffer death and hell. He put “a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation” in Zion. That stone is Christ! Those that believe have nothing to worry about. But the the refuge of lies will be swept away and those who are not righteous will suffer death and hell. Isaiah 28:16-20
      16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste . 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled , and your agreement with hell shall notstand ; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through , then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it passover , by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
      You said,
      4. YES!! Time is a construct of creation. AMEN!!! So if I say God promised me “eternal life” BEFORE “eternal times” began, how in the world can I be talking about “eternity”? In both cases, the “life” and the “times” are being modified by the adjective “aionios”. That “aionois” LIFE takes place IN/DURING those “aionios” TIMES. And those “times” had a beginning and (though you don’t believe it, I guess) they have an end. Time is not part of eternity.
      You want to hang on to the idea that aion means age and that some how that should limit aionios. But you forget that aion means more than simply an age. As I said, it means, “for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, the worlds, universe, period of time, age.” You WANT there to be an end to the punishment so that you can reconcile that to the idea that God is love. But you are ignoring the fact that God is holy, righteous, and just and will judge all mankind. You are ignoring the fact that aionios means without beginning and end, without end, as well as without beginning. It can be any of the three. The eternal life begins when the person has faith in Christ but has no end. Eternal punishment begins at judgement and will have no end, and it occurs in the lake of fire (the ETERNAL fire) which apparently had no beginning or ending. You said,
      5. No we are not told how or when the lake of fire was created, but we are told that OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE, right? And what does it say in Malachi about the coming of the day of the Lord? Doesn’t it say: “he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”? You place that way out still into the future, but that is not when Malachi placed it. Malachi speaks of the one who is sent before Him to “prepare the way of the Lord”. And Jesus Christ himself said that this was fulfilled by John the Baptist (~2000 years ago). He also said: “I am come to send fire on the earth”. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit AND FIRE. Could it be that “the lake of fire” is not some literal life way out in the distance somewhere, yet to be revealed and have the wicked cast into it, but OGD HIMSELF, into whom we have ALL been baptized? That NOW is the judgment of this world and it’s judged BY FIRE? Even that “eternal fire” which reigns down from heaven on to the earth to CONSUME THE WICKED?
      Oh how confused you are! Like I have said before, you pull bits of scripture out of context and try to string them together with no reference to where they came from (perhaps so no one would verify your statements?) and think you will come up with a cohesive idea which is “supposedly” based on the Bible. But while you take scripture from the Bible, you are NOT coming up with a biblical idea, at least in this case. It is obvious you are pulling these ideas from heretical web pages. Quit following after man’s philosphies, and follow Christ! Let God open your eyes and heart to see and understand TRUTH! No, the lake of fire is NOT GOD. Yes, John was sent as Elijah (Matthew 11:14 NAS). And yes, there are verses which speak of God as a consuming fire: Dt 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29. Let us take a look at them: Deuteronomy 4:24 NAS
      “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
      Deuteronomy 9:3 NAS
      “Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you.
      Hebrews 12:29 NAS
      for our God is a consuming fire.
      We can see in Ezekiel 22:31 that God’s wrath (indignation) is poured out on the heads of those who sin and He has consumed them. If God did it on the earth to the Ammonites, why would He not do it at the end of physical life as He has promised? Ezekiel 22:31
      31 “Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath ; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord GOD.
      We see the coming wrath in Luke 3:7 NAS
      So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come ?
      Now we have to look at what word is translated as consuming. “Consuming” in the Old Testament is translated from ‘akal ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/akal.html ). This means to eat, to devour, to consume. The fuller meanings can be seen as: to eat, devour, burn up, feed (Qal) to eat (human subject) to eat, devour (of beasts and birds) to devour, consume (of fire) to devour, slay (of sword) to devour, consume, destroy (inanimate subjects – ie, pestilence, drought) to devour (of oppression) (Niphal) to be eaten (by men) to be devoured, consumed (of fire) to be wasted, destroyed (of flesh) (Pual) to cause to eat, feed with to cause to devour (Hiphil) to feed to cause to eat (Piel) consume “Consuming” in the New Testament is translated from Katanalisko ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/katanalisko.html ) and means: 1. to consume of fire. The ONLY place this word is used is in Hebrews 12:29 and it is used describe God. It is obvious God’s fire will CONSUME sinners. Now let us look at the verse you mentioned without reference, Malachi 3:2, but we’ll look at the context of the verse, to ensure we get the whole message: Malachi 3:1-4:3
      1 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple ; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts. 2 “But who can endure the day of His coming ? And who can stand when He appears ? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. 3 “He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4″Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years. 5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment ; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me,” says the LORD of hosts. 6 “For I, the LORD, do not change ; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 “From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,”says the LORD of hosts. “But you say, ‘How shall we return ?’8 “Will a man rob God ? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. 9 “You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10 “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows . 11 “Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground ; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes,” says the LORD of hosts. 12 “All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land,” says the LORD of hosts. 13 “Your words have been arrogant against Me,” says the LORD. “Yet you say, ‘What have we spoken against You?’ 14 “You have said, ‘It is vain to serve God ; and what profit is it that we have kept His charge, and that we have walked in mourning before the LORD o fhosts ? 15 ‘So now we call the arrogant blessed ; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.’ “16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17 “They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.” 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. 1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace ; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff ; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings ; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of yourfeet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
      Its obvious form the context that God will cleanse His people, “the sons of Levi” (remember that believers will be a nation of priests, Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6). But that is not consuming them. But the wicked (“the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me”) will be judged. HOWEVER, the ones who fear the Lord and esteem His name” will be spared. So the arrogant and evil doers will be burned up and destroyed like chaff. The ones who fear God will be healed and will tread on the ashes of the wicked. It looks to me as if there is a difference between a refiner’s fire and a consuming fire. The refiner’s fire will cleanse the people of God. But the consuming fire will destroy the wicked. It seems to me that Christ is the refiner’s fire (since we have Christ’s righteousness imputed to us when we believe), and the lake of fire is the furnace which will consume the wicked. Yes, Jesus said he had come to cast fire upon the earth, but we can see in the context that He was not speaking of the earth literally, but on the people of the earth – aswe see when he speaks of causing divsion among family members. Yet, even here, we see warning of the coming judgement in verses 56-59. Luke 12:49-59
      49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth ; and how I wish it were already kindled ! 50 “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished ! 51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth ? I tell you, no, but rather division ; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” 54 And He was also saying to the crowds, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming,’ and so it turns out. 55 “And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, ‘It will be a hot day,’ and it turns out that way. 56 “You hypocrites ! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time ? 57 “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right ? 58 “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.”
      John the Baptist said in Luke 3:16 that he baptized with water (the symbol of outward purification), but Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit (God) and fire (the symbol which indicates refining fire of God spoken of in Malachi 3). This is not the consuming fire, but the purifying fire whereby what is left is refined. This is the purifying of those who believe. Luke 3:16 NAS
      John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water ; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals ; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
      We see in Revelation 20:8 where the nonbelievers were deceived and surrounded the camp of God’s people, and in 9 where fire came down from heaven and devoured the deceived. Then in verse 10, the devil was thrown into the lake of brown sufur (lake of fire), and they (beast and false prophet) will be tormented forever. Revelation 20:7-10
      7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war ; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also ; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
      What do you tihnk CONSUME means? It doesn’t mean to make feel good, but to destroy. This is the punishment we are to face if we do not have perfect righteousness. The only way to have that is to have GOD’s righteousness – which He offers to all of us if we simply accept His gift. That purifying fire is the righteousness of Christ. The fire is a symbol of God, and is seen in Acts 2:3-4.
      3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
      You went on:
      6. Now you say “all are made alive” but before you said not all get immorality. I’m not sure what your definition of “immortal” is, but you seem to know that all are made alive. Why the contradiction? What is your definition of “immortality” that you would think that it’s given to only believers? Also remember that “death” was destroyed, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot still “sleep”. And even those who “sleep in Jesus” will God bring with him. Most claim that Paul was referring to physically dead “believers”, but why would Paul need to comfort believers about other believers? Since when do believers “mourn” for other believers as if they have “no hope”?
      See previous discussion on immortality: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8989 Being made alive with Christ is what happens to believers. They obtain salvation, being given eternal life through faith. They are now undying, having been given immortality. But those who do not believe, while they are brought to life for judgement, they are not given eternal life and so do not get immortality (the state of not dying/undying). Instead, unbelievers are given eternal punishment, the second death. They are given unending death, the second death in the eternal lake of fire. At which point death is thrown into the lake of fire to be eternally destroyed with unbelievers. You went on:
      7. I didn’t say that “even so in Christ shall all be made alive” is speaking of “eternal life”. My point was that they are NOT the same thing. Eternal (aionios) life is the life we HAVE as believers DURING “aionios” TIMES (now). But the fact that all who DIED are MADE ALIVE proves that there will be none who continue to abide in death – death having been destroyed, right?
      No, that is not what that means. Look at the sequence of events. “Made alive” in the case of unbelievers means they are resurrected to be judged and sent into the lake of fire, the second death, eternal punishment. It is only THEN that death is sent into the lake of fire. you continue…
      So to believe that some continue to exist in a place of punishment and torment (hell) for all eternity is to say that there is “life” in hell and that is not what “life” is.
      You are correct – the unbelievers are punished with eternal PUNISHMENT in the second death – not life. After they are resurrected (made alive) for the resurrection of the judgement, unbelievers are judged and sent to the lake of fire for eternal destruction. You continue…
      In fact, death is not even physical. Physical death is simply a shadow of our spiritual reality. The death that we need to be redeemed from is not physical death, if that were the case believers would not ever die, even physically.
      We are redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13). We are redeemed from our futile way of life (1 Peter 1:18). And then we are called “the Holy People, the redeemed of the Lord” (Is 62:12). God redeems us from sin and makes us holy. But if we do not accept the gift, we will remain slaves to sin (John 8:34). If we do not accept (in this physical life) Christ as our savior, sent by God the Father to redeem us, we wil not be redeemed, and will to the second death. You continue….
      But Jesus was not talking about the flesh when He said; “those who live and believe shall never die”, for the flesh profits nothing. When Adam died he died spiritually, he was separated from communion with God. The same is true for us and HELL HAS NO VICTORY. Death is SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE!!
      Oh PLEASE stop grabbing bits and pieces of scripture and trying to string them together to make a point. Instead, READ the scripture in context before you accept the twisting that others have done for you! You are correct in that God wins. You are incorrect, in that death will be swallowed up AFTER people are judged and sent into the second death. The ones who will not die the second death are believers in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5). You went on:
      7. [sic] It is not just believers that have been reconciled to God through Christ, Mr. Moore. Scriptures is very clear that God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their (THE WORLD’S) trespassed against them. So to say that “believers have been reconciled to God” is to contradict the scriptures. Now I know that you think your understanding is better than mine and I am using a poor translation (yet I use more the KJV, I have about 5 or 6 at home and can access even more online , I just happen to like the KJV) but Paul could not have been more clear when he said it was THE WORLD that was reconciled to God. Nor John when he said that Christ atoned for not only the sins of believers, but the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD. So how you quote that Christ “died for the ungodly” but not understand what it means in relation to the salvation of all men (for NONE were righteous and NONE were seeking the Lord) is beyond me. But AMEN!! Christ died FOR THE UNGODLY. He died FOR US even when we were DEAD IN SINS. Hallelujah! Now that is some GOOD NEWS!! No?
      Sigh… you are so frustrating. I feel sorry for who ever follows the tripe you are selling. Colossians 1:20-24 tells us you will be presented holy and blameless if you continue in the faith and not move away from the gospel. If you dont believe and obey, the wrath of God remains upon you (John 3:18.36). The redemption is available to all, but it must be received (1 Thessalonians 5:8-10).
      And we must persevere in our faith and obedience. The crown of life is promised to those who love Him and those who persevere will receive it.
      James 1:12 NAS
      Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial ; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
      Unbelievers perish because they do not accept/recieve what God has done and said. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-13 NAS
      8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming ; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because *they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
      There is more on the fact that Christ is the savior of the world and yet not everyone will be saved (because He made it available to all who would receive it through faith) at my blog entry https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/christ-is-the-savior-of-the-world-but-not-all-the-world-will-be-saved/ You continued….
      8. Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever say that anyone has to “accept” God’s “free gift” in order to receive it. Such a gift is NOT FREE if there are STRINGS ATTACHED.
      The free gift is eternal life for those who believe. Romans 6:23
      For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
      If you believe, you are saved. Acts 16:30-31 NAS
      and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
      If I have something for you, you dont have it until you obtain it, until you accept it. Believe, and you obtain it. If you receive an email that says you are the heir to someone you never heard of and they left you one hundred million dollars, you will likely not believe them and hit delete. But if the letter was true, all you had to do was believe it and that would cause you to look into it and receive the money. If you dont believe, you dont receive. 2 Timothy 2:10 NAS
      10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
      Romans 10:10 NAS
      for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
      Paul is very clear in Rom 5 that by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation and by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life. The first “all men” doesn’t refer to all men, while the second “all men” refers only to “believers”. If Paul meant “all believers” he would have said “all believers”. Paul and John both go to the trouble of making it clear that it is NOT “just believers” who are saved or for whose sins Christ’s blood atoned. Even if we BELIEVE NOT, yet HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL for He cannot deny HIMSELF. We are HIS BODY, Mr. Moore. That was accomplished at the cross of Christ when, even when we were dead in sins, we were quickened together WITH HIM.
      As I have said before, you ignore scripture and context to twist scriptuee to present a message which it does not say. I’ve already shown you scripture before but again in this comment that you must believe to have eternal life. The free gift is eternal life. If you dont receive, you dont believe. Plain and simple.
      We HAVE BEEN buried with Him and WE SHALL ALSO live with Him. He is THE BEGINNING and THE END. All things had their beginning IN HIM and all things shall have their end IN HIM. God has gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth. (Eph 1:10).
      The righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the unrighteous to eternal punishment. The righteous will continue to live with God in the second earth. The unrighteous will be bowing their knees in the eternal fire of the second death, the lake of fire. See any of theprevious discussions on resurrection, but this will do: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8864 You continue…
      9. You claim that “eternal life” begins now but “eternal punishment” begins after physical death. How can that be when they both happen at the same time? Aren’t the sheep separated from the goats at the same time? One on the right (to eternal life) and the other on the left (to everlasting punishment)? This presents the same problem for those who claim that are TWO resurrections separated by a thousand years. Scriptures says that this is “A” resurrection of both the just and the unjust and Jesus Christ says that “HE” is “THE” resurrection and “THE” life. That is why Paul said that he was striving to know the power of HIS (CHRIST’S) RESURRECTION, as that is how you have part in THE FIRST resurrection. There is only ONE resurrection that counts and we need to have part IN IT, by being found IN HIM (who was raised from the dead… and WE WITH HIM).
      The believers get eternal life when they believe. They experience it by faith/spirit during their physical lifetime. The unbelievers HAVE spiritual death while they do not believe. They experience it by faith/spirit during their physical lifetime. There is obviously a resurrection of the righteous. Luke 14:14 NAS
      and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
      In fact, Jesus Himself said there is a resurrection of life and a resurrection of judgement. John 5:29 NAS
      and will come forth ; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
      And this lines up with what Paul taught as well. Acts 24:15 NAS
      having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
      About Jesus being the resurrection, we see that Jesus is life for those who believe. John 11:25-26
      25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life ; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this ?”
      Believers are raised from physical death and allowed to enjoy time with God (the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6). Then the unbelievers will be resurrected to be judged. All are brought together and the righteous experience life with God in the second heaven second earth while the unrighteous experience the second death (also spoken of in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20:11-21:9). You continue…
      10. No, I didn’t miss verse 12 of Col 2. it supports what I said. And the verse that I referenced (that you were responding to) was from Eph, so why did you jump back to 1 Cor 15:22 to tell me they aren’t the same thing? I have already said, many times, that while all are “made alive in Christ” that not all have “eternal life”. But that doesn’t mean that we were not ALL “quickened together with Christ” TOGETHER, even when we were dead in sins. So while there may be a “difference” it’s only in WHEN we come to KNOW GOD AND JESUS CHRIST. Those who come to know that NOW are already walking in “the newness of life”. Those who come don’t yet know it “sleep in Jesus” and their life IS HID (TO THEM) in Christ with God. Many will PASS from death unto life HERE by FAITH. But those who do not have still been MADE ALIVE in Christ. They just have not been given that revelation yet. Not all have this KNOWLEDGE. But not knowing the truth, doesn’t change the truth, does it? So you saying that I am “confusing being made alive in Christ with being made alive” makes no sense. There is only ONE LIFE and that LIFE is IN THE SON. There is NO OTHER WAY to be “made alive” but IN CHRIST.
      Do you know what quickened means? It MEANS to ‘make alive’. But there is a difference between being made alive and being made alive with Christ. See discussion on Zoopoieo https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8985 . Those who are made alive with Christ are those who believe in Him. The others are brought up from their physical death to be judged and go into the second death which is called the lake of fire. See any of the multitude of previous discussions of second death, but especially the discussion on immortality: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8989 God raises the believer to experience the reality of his eternal life which he already has. But God raises the unbeliever to experience the reality of the second death. So both have been made alive – the righteous to know and live with God (and Christ), the unrighteous to die away from God. You continue…
      11. Rom 11:36 is relevant to the conversation because ALL THINGS BEGIN AND END IN CHRIST. How can that be true and your idea of hell also be true?
      Romans 11:36
      36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
      Christ created all things (of Him), by means of Christ (by Him) and because of Him (and His Glory) we exist (to Him). This does not obviate the fact that God will eternally destroy those who do not accept what He has done by sending His Son to suffer and die for their sins. All things will be in subjection to Christ at that point – with believers living with Him and nonbelievers dying (being destroyed) in the lake of fire eternally. You continue…
      12. In what “context” does “…that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in him:” not mean exactly what it says?
      The righteous and the unrighteous will be brought together and the righteous will get to experience their heavenly inheritance, while the unrighteous will experience the second death eternally.
      Claiming that I cannot understand that properly unless I understand that Paul is addressing believers is just plain silly.
      What is silly is your blindness to the truth. I pray God will remove the veil from your eyes and hear to so you can understand what God has said and done.
      Paul could have been talking to a herd of cows and that wouldn’t change what he said, Mr. Moore. What he is referring to happened at the cross, that is when all things were gathered together in one – even in Christ. And that happened, even when we were dead in sins. I know I keep saying that and you keep ignoring it, but that is what Paul said.
      As I have said, people must accept what Christ has done, otherwise, they will sufferent eternal punishment.
      That is THE GOOD NEWS (ie; the gospel of Jesus Christ). We are told to take that gospel (good news) TO THE WORLD. The gospel is not “for believers”, Mr. Moore. It is for unbelievers. Believers already know the good news!!
      It is for those who would believe. (“whosoever”). But only believers will hear it and accept it and be changed by it and live forever with God because of it. The unbeliever will instead be raised to suffer the second death.
      So repeating everything Paul said and ADDING to each proclamation the word “believers” is to change what Paul said. Paul did NOT limit what he said to “believers”. You read that into the passage because of your own personal beliefs about who is and who isn’t saved. But those words are not there, you are adding them. And it makes no sense to even believe that God “predestinated” only a few people to salvation when scriptures says He WILL HAVE “ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”.
      See previous discussion on the difference between “want” and “will” https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/salvation-eternal-life-eternal-punishment/ The word is for “will” in 1 Timothy 2:4 ‘Thelo’ which means to have in mind OR desire. In almost every place it is translated, it is translated as ‘wish,’ ‘want,’ ‘willing,’ or ‘desire’. In John 6:40, we see a different word for ‘will’ – this is the one God has predetermined will occur and its what God will work to ensure happens. In John 6:40, we see the WILL OF GOD “is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and [He] will raise him up at the last day.” In 1 Thessalonians 4:3a, we see the WILL OF GOD is “your sanctification.” The word for ‘will’ here is Thelema, THIS ‘will’ means “what one wishes or has determined shall be done.” THIS is the ‘WILL’ God has determined HE will WORK to ensure occurs. God’s purpose is that people turn from sin, turn to Him through faith in Christ, and LIVE. He WANTS people to REPENT and LIVE! He WANTS people to be holy. God’s DESIRE for people who love Him is stronger than His desire for all men to be saved. If God merely wanted automatons, He would have never had to allow man to sin nor to send His Son to suffer and die to pay the price of our sins. But God works to ensure, “that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and [He] will raise him up at the last day.” You went on:
      You say I make God out to be liar, but you are claiming that wants to save all men, but can’t (or won’t) yet he PREDESTINATED those who ARE saved TO BE saved. And please don’t tell me that “predestinated” doesn’t really mean predestinated, that God just “knew” who would believe and who wouldn’t and those whom he “knew” would believe were “predestinated” unto salvation. That’s not predestination, that’s foreknowledge. And Paul is not saying that God “knew” who receive the adoption of sons, but that He ORDAINED US BEFORE HAND UNTO IT…. US… ALL OF US…. According to the good please OF HIS WILL – not man’s and not based on what we “did” or “didn’t do”, that is why it took place “even when we were dead in sins”. You keep wanting to ignore that, as if it means something else, even when you quote it back to me. Even the NASB says we were “MADE ALIVE with Christ EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN TRANSGRESSION”. That is so amazing! And you skip right over it as it is says “when we believed”.
      I am not ignoring that. I am simply reminding you that it is by grace we havebeen saved and scripture says we have to believe to be saved. Thus, being made alive with Christ is to be saved – to be given eternal life instead of eternal death. You continued…
      You quote back the NASB as if it says something different than the KJV and neither one says “you were saved because you believed”. They both say we were saved “even when we were DEAD”. The DEAD cannot resurrect themselves, Mr. Moore. The DEAD cannot give themselves LIFE. The DEAD can HAVE FAITH, it has to be GIVEN TO THEM and it cannot be given to them until they are RAISED from the dead. Man plays NO PART in that. So if God is willing to do it FOR ONE or TWO, or a thousand or ten thousand or a million (etc), please tell me why he will not do it FOR ALL, when it is HIS WILL for ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. And if that is GOD’S WILL and He works ALL THINGS according to counsel OF HIS OWN WILL, how can we claim that salvation is up to man and the will of God
      I never said salvation is up to man. I said scripture says we have to believe to be saved. It is evident from the fact that Paul is talking to people FORMERLY walked in their trespasses and sins (v1), who have been saved by faith (v4,8), who are no longer children of wrath (v4), that being “made alive with Christ” is what happens to believers. Yes, Christ authored the faith in us, as well as our salvation. But its our faith which we must exercise, as is evident from scripture (see discussion on “your faith” at https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8882 ) I’m sorry you can not see that. Ephesians 2:1-11
       1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
      You went on…
      13: If you can’t even say that unbelievers are given immortality, because of your belief in eternal torment, then I don’t think there’s even a point in continuing this conversation. Of course, immortality is incorruption. This MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY and this corruptible must put on INCORRUPTION. (And, yes, I know the word for “immortality” is not the same in both verses, but the word for “incorruption” in 1 Cor is the same as the word for “immortality” in Rom. Are you going to claim that Paul is only talking about believers in 1 Cor 15 when speaking of the resurrection of the dead?
      We are in agreement. This is a pointless exercise, since you are unable to open your eyes to the truth of God. See discussion on immortality in comment https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8989 The immortality which means undying is given to people who believe in Christ, this is known as eternal life. The reason unbelievers do not get immortality is that they are ever dying instead of ever living. You continued.
      14: Not all references to an “everlasting covenant” are about the New Covenant. The circumcision of the flesh was said to be an everlasting covenant. But since Abraham was justified BY FAITH I won’t try and argue the point. But I gave you a list of others things that were called “everlasting” (besides the covenant). But that’s ok. I can see that this conversation is going nowhere and it’s just becoming a huge waste of time for both of us.
      This is why I think that you are cutting and pasting without reviewing the scripture included – every single reference to everlasting covenant you gave me was about the New Covenant. GO READ THEM – READ GOD’S WORD and realize your mistake. You are right, since you refuse to be corrected, this conversation is going nowhere. You continued…
      15. The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge did not contradict itself. Just because the writers defending the doctrine of Apocatastasis were in the minority when the greatest amount of apposition arose, doesn’t disprove the other facts given about what the state of the church (and its seminaries) were prior to that. And even the quote that you provided from the encyclopedia supports what I said about Augustine being one of the predominate forces involved in its overthrow. But if you would rather believe that the authors of an encyclopedia of such massive volume of work can’t be trusted just because you’d rather not even have to entertain those types of facts, then (again) I think we are finished here. But I pray one day you’ll actually be willing to investigate the facts and consider something other than what “the majority” (today) says is “true” and investigate this matter further.
      It DID contradict itself. In one place it said that that people who pushed universalism were in the minority ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc01.html?term=Apocatastasis ) and then said it was the prevalent view ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12.u.ii.html#u.ii-Page_96 ). Either the view was in the minority or not. You continued…
      I don’t think I am going to get back to the other comment that I started on earlier today. Perhaps I should have done that first before coming to read another one, but I didn’t. I appreciate your time. I know how much time it takes to put together all of these replies; that’s why I just can’t see doing it anymore, when we are really not making any headway at all. You believe and I believe differently. You stand with the majority and I’m nothing but a single mom who loves the Lord and the scriptures that bear witness to him.
      To be clear, you stand with the heretics who push universalism – I’ve researched much of what you have written, and it is evident at least some of it was cut and pasted from others’ websites. PLEASE pray to God for guidance, ignore what others are telling you and read God’s word for yourself without the glasses of satan’s contamination so you can see the truth. But just as you are a single mother, so am I a single father. What does that have to do with ANYTHING? As if somehow I should be not answer heretics who are mothers but only heretics who are fathers?
      Perhaps one day they will reveal to you the same Lord and Saviour of the world that I see. Perhaps not. But let God be true and every man a liar. I put my trust in Him and in Him alone and I trust him not only for my own salvation but for the salvation of all men.
      I pray God will remove the demon of blindness and confusion and delusion and allow you see God’s truth in all its glory. God is true – even if you can’t understand right now what God has said. I pray all men will come to a saving knowledge of Christ and not suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire. You said,
      Thanks again.
      Thank YOU.
    • Christine,
      You say in #5, “No we are not told how or when the lake of fire was created, but we are told that OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE, right? And what does it say in Malachi about the coming of the day of the Lord? Doesn’t it say: “he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”? You place that way out still into the future, but that is not when Malachi placed it. Malachi speaks of the one who is sent before Him to “prepare the way of the Lord”. And Jesus Christ himself said that this was fulfilled by John the Baptist (~2000 years ago). He also said: “I am come to send fire on the earth”. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit AND FIRE. Could it be that “the lake of fire” is not some literal life way out in the distance somewhere, yet to be revealed and have the wicked cast into it, but OGD HIMSELF, into whom we have ALL been baptized? That NOW is the judgment of this world and it’s judged BY FIRE? Even that “eternal fire” which reigns down from heaven on to the earth to CONSUME THE WICKED?”

      WHAT???? I am sorry, but I was just wondering HOW IN THE WORLD you came up with THIS idea?? It appears that you just took some scriptures using the word FIRE and put them together to create more confusion. First of all, you mention the consuming fire, which is many places in the Bible, and proves the point we have a God of Wrath. God IS A CONSUMING FIRE. If you read the contexts around the consuming fire, they are mostly done in God’s anger and HE DESTROYS. Then you jump to Malachi, which is the refiner’s fire. This is a fire for refinement, purification, for cleansing, not at all the wrathful consuming fire to which we see reference. Christ IS that refining fire that fuller’s soap. He brought purification and cleansing of our sins.

      Next, you talk about being baptized in the Holy Spirit and FIRE, which we see in the accounts of the Gospels, of John the Baptist speaking of Jesus, and THEN in Acts 1:5, Jesus actually tells us what that means. “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” And then in Acts 2, we see how they were baptized with the Holy Spirit AND fire. Verses 1-4 says: When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

      With the conversation of comparing and searching scripture that you have participated in recently, I am amazed that you would make the next statement: “Could it be that “the lake of fire” is not some literal life way out in the distance somewhere, yet to be revealed and have the wicked cast into it, but GOD HIMSELF, into whom we have ALL been baptized?” and I would have to confidently say, NO, GOD HIMSELF IS NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE.

      I ask you, how many proofs of scripture do you have to back up THAT IDEA?? I can’t seem to find ANY, and by simply using God’s Word, you can’t either. I really don’t think you came up with this idea by simply reading God’s Word, just as it is clear you have not come up with most of the other ideas you have shared by purely reading God’s Word. Following after ideology that men have come up with to help you defend their distorted beliefs is NOT the same as defending God’s Word with what Holy Spirit shows just from reading HIS WORD. I think it is sad that heresies and false beliefs take the time to come up with arguments and defenses against “traditional Christians” and want to call those who believe in tradition “brain washed” when we simply use the Word of God to prove what is there. The thought of taking falsehoods about God and attracting followers and then giving those followers disputes and reasons to quarrel with “orthodox” Christianity is the word of MAN twisting the Perfect Truth into an ugly sacrilege. The very definition of “brainwashing” is “Intensive, forcible indoctrination, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.” When we trust in Christ, we are given those basic convictions and attitudes. We do NOT have to be told how to argue against what the Bible REALLY says to us. It doesn’t take scholars or learned men to show us what God has already prepared for us. I implore you to study God’s Word pure and simple, without reading reasoning and explanations from those who seem to think they have perfected the heresy and lies, without prejudice for what you have already been taught by those you “follow.” Ask God to show YOU, through the Holy Spirit the Truth of His Word. This is what I was talking about when I commented on reading scripture, getting an idea, and automatically assuming it is “inspired by God”, when there is no PROOF of that idea. These are the types of comments and ideas that are read into God’s Word when it just isn’t there, ideas that bring about false doctrine, ideas that bring about distortion, and perversion of God’s Word, ideas that take liberties to “add into” the TRUTH that God is trying to show. If God WAS that Lake of Fire, wouldn’t HE have said, I AM THE LAKE OF FIRE, without ‘hiding” it throughout scripture like some secret code?? God has made His will and His Word simple to understand when we are reading through the eyes of the Holy Spirit.

  29. Mr. Moore. Comparing scripture to scripture and pitting them against each other are two very different things in my mind. When I say someone is “pitting scripture against scripture”, I am referring to the fact that they are taking once verse and USING IT AGAINST another one in an attempt to “disprove” it, as if is can be proven “false”.

    So while someone’s INTERPRETATION of a passage of scripture CAN BE “proven false” BY COMPARING IT with other passages of scripture, that is not what I meant. And anyone who has read my blogs knows that I go to GREAT LENGTH to COMPARE scripture and RECONCILE THE WHOLE, I do not just “proof-text” as you keep suggesting. Nor do I ignore “context” as you also keep suggesting.

    • When someone presents scripture which is out of context to present an idea/message, and someone else presents the verse in the context of the rest of scripture around it and doing so changes the how that text is understood (changes the understood meaning of the verse), then that shows the original person did not read the text in context. Either someone ELSE gave them that scripture verse and told them what to think about it, or that person saw a verse and did not take the time to ensure they understood what it said, or that person had a point they wanted to make and would cherry pick verses to make that point, instead of actually reading what God has written and taking it as written. This is why it is so important to read ALL the Bible and to not take verses out of context.

      When one interprets a verse to mean one thing and then does not look for all other verses pertaining to said subject, they have no idea if that understanding is correct. You have ignored verses which directly contradict what you claim to believe. This shows you do not want to learn what God has to say, but would rather believe what Satan and man has beguiled you to believe. But when I show you scripture, I am not showing a passage is wrong, I am showing that you simply do not understand what God has said.

      I have read your blog. It was very confusing. It is as if you have a spirit of confusion over your eyes and heart and that comes out in your communication. It appears to me that you go to great lengths to pull text out of context and ignore verses to have it say that everyone will be saved, and that everyone will pass from eternal life or eternal punishment to live all happy with God in heaven without having to have faith in Christ. If I am wrong, I’m sorry, but that is the message communicated. If I am right, then that is heresy and it is sad that you could be so confused, and you will eventually answer to God for it.

      I pray that God will expunge the demon of confusion from you and will open your eyes to the truth.

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