I was surprised that someone actually thought that Matthew 25:33-46 is referring to a separation of spirit from the flesh (carnal and spiritual selves).
I thought I’d take a look at the passage to see exactly who and what is being spoken about.
Matthew 25:33-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
First, we have to realize that the Son of Man refers to Jesus Christ, as we see in Matthew 9:1-8
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.
Second, notice in verse 32 that Jesus will “separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” This is not the separation of one’s body from their spirit. It is clear that this is Jesus separating one group of people from another.
In verse 33 He put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. He clearly states in verse 34 that the King (Jesus) will tell the righteous to take their inheritance. Again, its obvious that Jesus is speaking to people – not to mere bodies.
He then speaks to the unrighteous – not mere bodies – telling them in verse 41 to depart into the eternal fire.
We see in verse 46 that the righteous will go to eternal life; the unrighteous will go to eternal punishment.
So Jesus was not speaking of separating bodies from spirits, nor the carnal nature (old nature/self) from the spiritual nature (new nature/self), but righteous people from unrighteous people.
Filed under: Bible, Christ, Death, God, Hell, Punishment, Salvation, Universalism |
Wbmoore's Biblical Insights 
Wow, you’re on a roll!! Completely misrepresenting what I said again!!
You really don’t listen do you? You are just so hell bent on this mission of yours to write a blog about everything I say that you can’t even take the time to try and UNDERSTAND what I said before you set out to tear it down, can you?
Christ was talking about SHEEP AND GOATS. He never said “people”. So you go around accusing me of “changing words” in the bible and yet you use a translation that does EXACTLY THAT? You don’t find that a tad bit hypocritical?
I never said that Jesus was not talking about PEOPLE, Mr. Moore. I simply pointed out that there is more to it than that. Why use SHEEP AND GOATS if all there is to it is PEOPLE?
The SHEEP AND THE GOATS are the same as THE WHEAT AND THE TARES and I never said they are not PEOPLE but what DETERMINES whether one is “a wheat” or “a tare” IS THEIR WALK.
We can either walk IN THE FLESH (=TARE) are we can walk IN THE SPIRIT (=WHEAT). Which also means that we are not just one OR the other, we can PASS FROM ONE TO THE OTHER. But we are still THE SAME PERSON.
So if we are walking IN THE FLESH than we will be “seen” AS A TARE (ie “children of the wicked one” or even “a child of hell”) . But if we are walking IN THE SPIRIT we will be “seen” AS WHEAT (ie “children of the kingdom” or even “children of the day” and “children of the resurrection”).
So just remember that we are ALL “by nature” THE CHILDREN OF WRATH (goats/tares) when Christ died for us.
We were ALL “dead in sin” when we were “quickened together with Christ” by being baptized into HIS DEATH.
(I’ll assume you know the verse since you claim the know the bible better than I do.)
sigh…
I dont know you. Its not about you at all. Its about the heresy of universalism and the blatant errors in interpreting scripture. I write on topics about which I think people need to be taught. If you were correct more often, or perhaps less confusing in what you write (to give you the benefit of the doubt), its likely that your words would not trigger such a response.
You wrote,
Please go read the scripture which I quoted. One version (NIV) used the term ‘people’, while another (NASB) ‘them’ when speaking of the nations – a term which means
So the NIV is appropriate to use the term ‘people’.
We both agree Jesus used analogy to try to help his listeners understand truths. We KNOW he was speaking of people, because He said the nations will gather before the Son of Man “and He will separate them from one another AS the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” It is an analogy. the ones on the right, the sheep, are the righteous ones from the nations – NOT the spiritual man. The ones on the left, the goats, are the unrighteous ones from the nations – not the carnal man.
If you dont want to be confusing, then you need to be careful to not use language in ways which are uncommon, or to explain your usage of what you are saying.
Matthew 25:31-46 is about judgement, pure and simple – Christ is sitting on His throne and separating the righteous from the unrighteous.
You wrote,
But it is clear from Jesus’ own words the sheep are the righteous nations (people) who will go to eternal life
and the goats are the wicked who will go to eternal punishment.
Yes, we were all dead in sin when Christ died for us (even those who had not yet been born). But we are only made alive in Christ when we believe in Christ. That belief will engender change in us to love God and love others in practical ways which show our righteousness.
Ephesians 2:1-10
Those who have Christ’s righteousness (Romans 3:21-26) do so by faith in Christ and enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who do not believe go to eternal punishment.
By saying that everyone will be saved, the universalist makes Christ out to be a liar when He said in Matthew 7:21-23
Because, if everyone is saved, then everyone can enter the kingdom of heaven. But Christ said not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.
No, you don’t know me, yet you keep writing blog after blog about every comment I make when you haven’t even a clue what I said. You even accuse me changing and exchanging words of scriptures which I never have and then you use a bible translation which does the very thing that you accuse me of doing, telling me how “twisted” it is. Not only that, you’ll throw out every rule of grammar so long as it benefits you.
It is NOT appropriate to change the pronoun “them” to “people” when the subject is sheep and goats. EVEN IF those sheep and goats “represent people” (which I never denied, though you falsely accused me of denying it because you did not UNDERSTAND what I was talking about).
And the fact that you have no problem with the translators changing the words of Jesus, but you have a problem with me giving you the definition of a word that IS found in the scriptures (and a lesson in grammar), just astounds me. Talk about being disingenuous!
Just WHO do you think the “spiritual man” is if it’s not a believer (sheep), who is walking IN THE SPIRIT, having been born again (of the spirit)?
And just WHO do you think the “carnal man” is if it’s not an unbeliever (tare), who is walking IN THE FLESH, never having been born again (of the spirit)?
Most of what I say has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Universalism and you, who called yourself a preacher and teacher of the Word of God, don’t understand this stuff?
As far as being baptized into Christ (into his death). Paul did not only say that Christ died for us “when we were dead in sins”. He said we were QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST AND EVEN RAISED WITH HIM “even when we were dead in sins”. That is why Paul refers to “the dead” as being “in Christ”.
Because “if one died for all then were all dead”!! (2 Cor 5:14)
And, yes, we are MADE ALIVE in Christ WHEN WE BELIEVE.
I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE!!!
And no one called Christ a liar, Mr. Moore. Not everyone who says “LORD LORD” shall enter into the kingdom of God.
Again, I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE!!!
But WHERE IS that kingdom, Mr. Moore. Out there somewhere in space? Somewhere up above the clouds? Not according to Jesus!
Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, THE KNGDOM OF GOD COMETH NOT WITH OBSERVATION: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, BEHOLD, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU.
We enter in BY FAITH. But we enter in HERE, sir. The kingdom of God IS WITHIN. It is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy IN THE HOLY GHOST (SPIRIT).
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Unbelievers DO NOT have that RIGHTEOUSNESS, JOY, AND PEACE for it doesn’t come FROM THIS WORLD. It comes from CHRIST (IN YOU).
Jhn 14:27-29 Peace I leave with you, MY PEACE I give unto you: NOT AS THE WORLD GIVETH, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I GO AWAY, AND COME AGAIN UNTO YOU. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And NOW I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE IT COME TO PASS, THAT, WHEN IT IS COME TO PASS, YE MIGHT BELIEVE.
Christ comes to us AS “ANOTHER COMFORTER” (THE HOLY SPIRIT):
Jhn 14:15-20 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever; Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but YE KNOW HIM; FOR HE SWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; BUT YE SEE ME: because I live, ye shall live also. AT THAT DAY YE SHALL KNOW that I am in my Father, and ye in me, AND I IN YOU.
And it is AT HIS (the Comforter / Holy Spirit / spirit OF TRUTH/CHRIST) COMING that THE WORLD IS REPROVED… OF SIN, OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND OF JUDGMENT!
Jhn 16:8-16 And WHEN HE IS COME, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: OF SIN, BECAUSE they believe not on me; OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; OF JUDGMENT, BECAUSE the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and YE SHALL SEE ME, BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
You seem to be waiting TO DIE to enter into the kingdom of God. You seem to be waiting to “go” somewhere (heaven or hell, heaven preferably).
But we have ALREADY DIED!!
First we died IN SIN. Then we were baptized INTO CHRIST, even into HIS DEATH.
What we are striving to know is THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION:
Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord (= ETERNAL LIFE): for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, THAT I MAY WIN CHRIST, AND BE FOUND IN HIM, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but THAT WHICH IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF CHRIST, the righteousness which is OF GOD by faith: That I may KNOW HIM (= ETERNAL LIFE), AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION (= THE FIRST RESURRECTION), and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
CHRIST ~IS~ THE RESURRECTION
Jhn 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE: he that believeth in me, THOUGH HE WERE DEAD, YET SHALL HE LIVE: And whosoever LIVETH AND BELIEVETH in me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?
See? Martha didn’t understand what Jesus meant when he said:
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.
Jesus had to tell her that HE IS the resurrection and the life. He who was standing right there… and who called Lazarus out of his grave, losing him from the bands of death. (A physical manifestation of a spiritual truth, just as we Jesus’ other miracles of healing the blind, the deaf, the lame and raising the dead.)
Jesus Christ is THE FIRST AND THE LAST. He is the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is THE DAY STAR that arises IN OUR HEARTS. And we enter into THE DAY OF THE LORD (leaving THE NIGHT AND DARKNESS behind, which becomes “yesterday” when it is PAST) WHEN WE HEAR HIS VOICE and HARDEN NOT OUR HEARTS ( = TODAY) and Christ begins to be formed IN US.
Hbr 4:4-11 For he spake IN A CERTAIN PLACE of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And IN THIS PLACE AGAIN, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, HE LIMITETH A CERTAIN DAY, saying in David, TODAY, after so long a time; as it is said, TODAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HERATS. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore A REST to the people of God. For he that is entered into HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore TO ENTER INTO THAT REST, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
We “enter in” BY FAITH WHEN WE BELIEVE.
Not all enter in. I never said “all” do. Many are called BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.
But that has nothing to do with “salvation”.
ALL who died in Adam are made alive in Christ.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
That is NOT the same LIFE (ie “eternal life”) that is given TO BELIEVERS (NOW).
Actually, the subject is NOT sheep and goats. If you will read the text again, one can see that the subject is the nations. The next phrase is an analogy indicating Christ shall separate the nations AS the shepherd separates sheep and goats. Since the subject is the nations, then ‘them’ is speaking of the nations. Thus, yes, it is appropriate to replace the ‘them’ with people.
Matthew 25:32 KJV
You continue,
No, as I have shown, your confusion about the subject of the sentence is what makes you think the word is incorrectly substituted.
you asked,
I agree with you that the spiritual man is a believer, the righteous man. And I agree the carnal man is the unbeliever, the unrighteous man.
You said,
But its not just universalism where you seem to have (or communicate) confusion or error.
You continue…
But if you notice the scripture that you referenced in context, you will see it was not all the dead who were made alive with Christ. Paul states that we were made alive with Christ (saved) through faith – and it obviously happened in this physical life.
Ephesians 2:1-9
You said,
What you said is that everyone is saved. Yet, we see in the scripture you referenced that we are SAVED through FAITH. This is something one must have in this physical life. THAT is why I keep bringing up the fact that we need FAITH to be saved, to be justified, to be sanctified, to have eternal life, to avoid eternal punishment, to enter the kingdom of God. We need to have FAITH in Christ in this physical life for any of that to happen. This is why the heresy of universalism is a damning heresy – it states that everyone will be saved, when its clear only those who have faith in Christ in this life will be saved.
Some might think that you are saying that the kingdom of God is within everyone and/or only within people. We need to look at scripture in context, and with a Bible translation which does not cause as much confusion as the KJV. The KJV reads “within you,” but since we know that we need faith to enter the kingdom of God, and that Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who did NOT have faith, then we know the kingdom of God is not within those to whom He was speaking, and so not within everyone. Because of these truths, ‘within you’ is not the best translation for Greek word ‘Entos’ ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/entos.html ). While it DOES mean within you, in this case, the better translation is in the ‘midst of you’ as we see in the NASB.
1. within, inside
a. within you i.e. in the midst of you
b. within you i.e. your soul
The NASB translation makes it is easier to see that the kingdom of God is not inside everyone. It is where Christ is (He was in the midst of the Pharisees). We experience this internally with faith while physically alive. But when we die, we will continue to experience it in heaven.
Luke 17:20-21 NASB
We see in John 14:1-3 that Jesus went to prepare a place for us so we can be where HE is (kingdom in heaven)
John 14:1-3
You said,
You and I agree here.
Well, strictly speaking, Christ is NOT the Holy Spirit. He does not come to us AS the Holy Spirit. Christ said He would come to us. But was He speaking of His second coming at the end of the world, or of coming to dwell with us inside us through faith, or both? I think both.
In fact, we can see that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwell within believers through faith.
Galatians 2:20 NAS
Ephesians 3:17 NAS
James 4:5 NAS
You continued,
Again you and I agree. But I think it is easier to see that the Holy Spirit will convict (reprove) the world of sin, righteousness and judgement and why when we look at the NASB.
John 16:7-11
You continued….
As I have said, we gain eternal life when we believe. This is when we are saved and enter the kingdom of God (AKA the kingdom of heaven) – where God is. It is experienced by faith while physically alive and continues after physical death in heaven and continues still further in the new heaven and new earth.
I think we can see in Romans 7:9 that we died when we came to the knowledge of good and evil, because at that point, we sinned and died.
And of course, we see in Romans 6:1-13 that we are said to have died to sin and been baptized into Christ’s death and are urged to live righteously.
You continued,
First, I have to say that to call the resurrection of Christ the “first resurrection”, you are confusing matters unnecessarily, because we are told in Revelation 20:4-6 that the first resurrection is when those who had faith in Jesus and died because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark of the beast on their forehead or hand came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Indeed, blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection, and that the second death (the lake of fire. see Revelation 20:14-15) have no power over them.
Revelation 20:4-6
You continue…
When you make statements like the above, it is helpful for you to reference scripture so people can verify what you say. Otherwise, things can get confusing.
“THE FIRST AND THE LAST” comes from Revelation 1:17
“SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS” comes from Malachi 4:2 KJV
“THE DAY STAR that arises IN [y]OUR HEARTS” comes from 2 Peter 1:19 KJV
“THE DAY OF THE LORD’ has MANY references: Isaiah 2:12; Isaiah 13:6-9; Isaiah 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 13:5; Ezekiel 30:3; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1; Joel 2:11; Joel 3:14; Amos 5:18-20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7-18; Zephaniah 2:2-3; Zechariah 14:1; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10.
But suffice it to say that the Day of Lord will come as a thief in the night and is when the Lord will judge and the righteous and unrighteous will be separated, with the unrighteous being punished and the heavens and earth shall be destroyed.
We especially see this in Zephaniah 1:7-18
I am uncertain what you mean by “leaving THE NIGHT AND DARKNESS behind”. I can’t find a direct reference to it.
Perhaps you were referring to Romans 13:12?
Neither do I know what you mean by “which becomes “yesterday” when it is PAST”. Perhaps this is a reference to Psalm 90:4?
You’ve put together a lot of verses, but your meaning is unclear. Please clarify what you mean.
You continued,
I agree with you here.
So are you saying that entering into God’s rest is eternal life?
Are you saying entering into God’s rest is not salvation?
If so, then you are mistaken.
It is evident from Paul that one needs FAITH to be saved, which comes from hearing the word of the Lord and calling upon the name of the Lord. People are saved by God’s grace through faith in Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
In fact, it is ONLY through faith in Christ that we CAN be saved.
Acts 4:12
People must turn to God in repentance.
Acts 20:21
It is godly sorrow that beings about repentance which leads to salvation, but worldly sorrow brings death instead of salvation. Notice the two roads – salvation or death.
2 Corinthians 7:10
By accepting the Son of God, Jesus Christ, as savior, people’s sins are forgiven.
Acts 10:43
By believing in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, as savior, not only are people’s sins are forgiven, but they are justified (declared righteous, innocent), set free from every sin.
Acts 13:38-39
When we believe in Christ, we are saved.
Acts 16:30-31
When we believe, we have eternal life.
John 3:16
According to Jesus, those who believe God will not be judged but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Hebrews 9:27-28 tells us people are destined to die once and then face judgement.
There are two ways to reconcile John 5:24 and Hebrews 9:27:
Either everyone will face judgement when they die physically but those who believe God will not be judged guilty and so have eternal life
Or not everyone (only unbelievers) will face judgement when they die physically.
Either way, Jesus WILL BRING salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
Recall that when we believe, our sins are forgiven, we are saved and we have eternal life. We NEED faith for that to occur.
Romans 1:16
You finished with,
Well, I can see where this could be a point of confusion. Yes, this “life” is different than eternal life. But this verse IS about salvation — it is about being resurrected for our judgement, thus it is about the righteous being saved from the effects of being judged for our own righteousness and the unrighteous facing judgement and then the destruction of death (in the lake of fire).
More specifically, this verse is speaking about the resurrection of the righteous (who HAVE eternal life) and the unrighteous for judgement.
This is easier to see when we look at the text in context. We see that Christ was raised first, the first fruits of those who are “asleep.” Then those who are Christ’s, then the end – the judgement where people are raised from the dead for judgement.
1 Corinthians 15:20-26
We must recall that Paul said there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:15
We see the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked spoken of in Matthew 25:31-46. “All the nations will be gathered before” Christ.
We see the righteous inherit the kingdom prepared for them, going into eternal life (Matthew 25:32-34,46). We again see the resurrection of the righteous (those who are Christ’s at His coming, 1 Corinthians 15:23) in Revelation 20:4-6.
After this resurrection of the righteous, there is a resurrection of the dead (the unrighteous). This is where Christ tells the unrighteous to depart from Him and go to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:42-46), followed by the judgement., followed by the destruction of death (into the lake of fire)
We see this in Revelation 20:11-15
So, as I have said before, we are justified and gain eternal life AND salvation AND entrance into the kingdom of heaven (AKA the kingdom of God) when we have faith in Christ. We will be resurrected and the righteous will be with Christ while the unrighteous go to the eternal punishment of the lake of Fire.
So you only have a problem with the text being changed if you don’t agree with the change that was made? But so long as you agree with the change it can be made?
No sir, I am not confused about the subject. I am very well aware of the fact that Jesus is not talking about literal sheep and goats, but “those” he is referring to are those on his right and left, which HE referred to AS sheep and goats. So while these sheep and goats ARE PEOPLE, that is still NOT what was written. So my point is that you seem to be ok with the words of scripture being changed so long as you approve of the change; it’s only a problem if you don’t. (And you lose the significance of the sheep and the goats if all you see are wicked or righteous “people”, which is why you were confused about what I said about the flesh and the spirit… btw, I did NOT say BODY and spirit.)
And do you agree that believers are SHEEP? Christ being THE SHEPHERD of THE SHEEP? (I ask because you said they weren’t in your blog, but it seems you have gone back and removed it??)
I’m not confused. If you are, maybe that’s because this is all “new” to you so it’s just difficult to make any sense of it right away – rather it being because I can’t communicate. In fact, I said “spirit and flesh” but you repeated it back as “spirit and body”. And there are a number of other times that you changed what I said and accused me of saying what you incorrectly quoted. Might that mean that, at least, some of the problems with communication here are yours – in accurately reading what I said? If you don’t read it right then how can you understand it (properly) and how is it my fault if you read it wrong?
Yes, this happened in this physical life! How does that change the fact that it happened “EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS”?
And if we keep reading…
Eph 2:13-22 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; And that he might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace TO YOU WHICH WERE AFAR OFF, AND TO THEM THAT WERE NIGH. For through him WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, AND OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together groweth unto AN HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Paul is talking about the Jews AND the Gentiles being gathered together into ONE BODY (even when we were dead in sins) BY THE CROSS. The fact that we were quickened together with Christ and even raised with Him in His resurrection (remember SOME to eternal life and OTHERS to everlasting punishment???) doesn’t mean that some did not “fall asleep” (Paul even speaks of this, though most believe he’s talking about corpses.)
Remember that it is after TWO DAYS that he “revives” us and in THE THIRD/LAST DAY that he raises us up;
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
But we first have to be BURIED WITH HIM (baptized into his DEATH).
All while we are physically alive…. AND when we are dead in sins!! (Because of His great love with which He loved us!!)
Yes, that is what I said. Not all have reached the end of their salvation, but they will.
By GRACE through FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is A GIFT FROM GOD. How many “gifts” do you give out with strings attached to them? It is THE FAITH AND OBEDIANCE OF JESUS CHRIST THAT SAVED US, Mr. Moore.
Only for “eternal life”.
The misunderstanding is yours. No one CAN COME to the Christ UNLESS THE FATHER DRAGS THEM. And Christ said: “I, if I be lifted up, WILL DRAG ALL MEN UNTO ME!! (The Greek word found in BOTH verses means TO DRAG). I contend that we WERE DRAGGED unto Christ when we were “quickened together with Christ” EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS.
Like the NASB which completely changes words to suite a particular theology?
They were asking Jesus about when the kingdom would come. He told them that “it comes not with observation”… so no one will be saying “go here” or “go there” (as they had to do to go “to Jerusalem” to worship in a temple made with hands) but that the kingdom of God COMES “within you”.
Christ IN YOU is the hope of Glory! What Paul waited for was for Christ to be formed IN those who believed. The spirit of God (and of Christ) dwells IN US and quickens our mortal bodies. Christ IN YOU, put the kingdom IN YOU. It’s not about going here or going there.
WE are those “dwelling places”, Mr. Moore. WE are the house / the temple of God. He comes “again” AS THE HOLY SPIRIT. (Remember, “I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you”? And in that day you will know that I am in the Father, and He in me, AND I IN YOU”?)
It happens, occasionally.
When Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit, he said: I will not leaven you comfortless; I WILL COME TO YOU. The Holy Spirit is the spirit OF TRUTH, the spirit OF CHRIST, the spirit OF GOD (They are ONE).
Even John new who the “comforter” was:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS:
The word translated “advocate” in the verse is the same word translated “comforter” in John 14, 15 and 16.
Jesus Christ AND the Holy Spirit? Are they two different beings?
Though I am sure that you will say that they are two different “persons” of the Godhead, let me point out to you that Paul never mentions “the Holy Spirit” when greeting the church; it’s always the God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. Let me also point out to you that Jesus said: “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME unto him, and make OUR abode with him.” Again, only the Father and the Son mentioned. Jesus said: “In that day you shall know that I am in the father and he in me and I in you.” Again, only the Father and the Son mentioned.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit OF GOD. It is also the spirit OF CHRIST, as it was THE FATHER (GOD) who was IN CHRIST doing the work. It is the spirit OF TRUTH (Christ is THE TRUTH – GOD manifest IN THE FLESH).
There is only ONE GOD. And they are not “three persons”. You cannot “divide” God into three, as if you can have “one” part of God – independent of the rest. They are ONE.
How is that different from the KJV, Mr. Moore? And why did you not even address the verses that I gave you which were the ones to which I was referring, which were to show that when Jesus said He would send “another Comforter” that it would be HIM who was coming? Ie (I WILL COME to you.) Even the NASB says: “A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me.”
He said: “I” and “ME”, Mr. Moore. He even calls him “the spirit OF TRUTH”. Who is “the TRUTH”?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
CHRIST IN YOU is THE HOPE OF GLORY!! (Col 1:27)
I’ll have to address the rest later. I have other things to do and this is taking up way to much time. Maybe I will have more time this evening or tomorrow. But it’s not like we aren’t just going over the same things over and over again. And what it boils down to is INTERPRETATION.
And while I am sure that you feel quite secure that your understanding is the “correct” one, given you stand with the majority and all, I know that Jesus Christ is the Savior OF THE WORLD. He was sent TO SAVE THE WORLD from sin and death and to say that He did anything short of accomplishing that is to call Christ a failure. And while Christians around the world will cry fowl at that, claiming that all in the world have been OFFERED salvation all they have to do is repent and ACCEPT it, Christ did not come to “offer salvation”. Christ came TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. And it’s truly a shame that most of those who call Him “Lord” are content to see Him fail so miserably, so long as they count THEMSELVES among the number of those “saved”. Sure they’ll feel sorry for those not saved, especially their own loved ones, if that is the case. But the bottom line will always be that they got “what they deserved”, even what we ALL “deserved”. How little they know about the LOVE God has for HIS CHILDREN!!
Let me ask you something…. Will you be disappointed to find out that the blood of Christ actually did atone for the sins of the whole world and that even those who did not “do” all that you “did” to “get saved” were saved by the grace of God, through the faith and obedience of ONE MAN – Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the living God?
If the message is not changed, then synonyms can be used. But if using a word changes the meaning of the message, then I have a problem with it.
This is why I like to look at a a functional/dynamic equivalence translation and compare it to a more formal/static equivalence translation.
The subject is the nations in Matthew 25:32. It is not until verse 33 that the subject changes to the sheep, AFTER Jesus said the nations would be separated AS a shepherd separates sheep from goats.. Thus, the use of ‘them’ or ‘people’ are both accurate because the people are being separated. If the meaning of the message were changed with the dynamic translation putting ‘people’ in place of ‘them,’ then I would have a problem with it.
I dont recall if I have removed that, but if it had been there and I saw it, I would have removed it because I DO agree that believers are sheep and Christ is the good shepherd, and the wicked are the goats. I wrote a blog entry on this a while back:
Some of the problem is me. But some of it is you. Some of it is using words in different fashion than normal. Some of it is substituting root word meaning for the actual meaning.
Because the Ephesians WERE children of wrath (unbelievers) but were seated with God in heaven by being saved through faith in Christ – which is true for all believers.
This is NOT universal salvation, but the salvation of those who believe. This does not occur after death, it is only after death that believers get enjoy the eternal life with God in heaven. Right now believers are enjoying that reality only in a spiritual sense.
You yourself have said that only believers can enter the kingdom of God, yet we see here that believers are seated in the heavenly places, fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God.
The key is that the audience was the church at Ephesus, believers. This sets the context of the message. Recall both gentiles and jews have access to God through the Holy Spirt through faith in Christ. But we know that citizens in heaven are those who have Christ’s righteousness through faith.
Philippians 3:9-20
See discussion of reconciliation to God in comment 2011/01/15 at 3:49 am ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8985 ).
;
The question is, who it the “us” who will be revived, raised up, and live in His sight? It is those who died in faith.
This is seen in Hosea 2:18-23 where God will call those who were not His people as His people.
This is seen in Hosea 5:17 where the people will acknowledge their guilt and seek God earnestly.
As I have said, those who are raised with Christ are those who have faith in Him.
See previous discussion on “immortality” 2011/01/15 at 10:46 am ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8989 )
What do you mean by this?
The faith is authored by Christ, but it is OUR faith. NOT CHRIST’s faith.
See previous discussion on “your faith has saved you” 2011/01/15 at 12:48 am ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/will-everyone-be-saved/#comment-8980 ). James never said show me Christ’s faith by your deeds, He said in James 2:18, “But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works ; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
No, for salvation is given to those who believe through faith in Christ. Again, see previous discussion on “your faith has saved you.”
But your contention states everyone was dragged and will be raised to live with God. This ignores scripture and damns those who would repent except that they hear this heresy and think they will still be saved even if they dont repent. Those people will die in their sins and suffer eternal destruction in the second death. see previous discussion on “immortality” 2011/01/15 at 10:46 am ( https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/more-on-predestination-verses-free-will-will-everyone-be-granted-repentance/#comment-8989 ).
Example please?
The only differences I know of are where the NASB uses better manuscripts and more modern words.
As I said, we know the kingdom of God is not within those who do not have faith.
Christ is in me, and in Heaven. I am physically here and in heaven spiritually. The latter is true of all believers in Christ. But Christ is NOT in non-believers.
I can see the idea that believers are those dwelling places as an acceptable understanding of there being many dwelling places in God’s house. It is certainly true here on earth (John 14:23), though I’m not as sure its true of us in heaven. We see Christ is on His throne in heaven, and is not spoken of being within us in heaven, as far as I know.
However, Jesus does NOT come again as the Holy Spirit – they are two separate persons within the one God.
As far as I can see, the word translated as “advocate” is used as “comforter” (KVJ) or “helper” (NASB)
Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, and God the Father are three persons in one God. They are NOT the same.
Jesus said that God the Father will give ANOTHER comforter. The use of ANOTHER indicates it was NOT Jesus. Also, notice the distinction – *I* (Jesus) will ask the FATHER and He will give ANOTHER comforter. These three are separate.
John 14:16
We see in John 14:26 that the comforter God the Father would send was the Holy Spirit.
We see in John 15:26 That Jesus would send the comforter from the Father.
We see in John 16:7 Jesus HAD to depart so the comforter He had promised could come.
And yes, we see in 1 John 2:1 that we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ. As you said, this is the same word John used as comforter earlier when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
But the Holy Spirit is NOT Christ. They are separate people.
See below for more discussion on the trinity.
Its evident that Paul began his epistle to the Romans by stating he is an an apostle of Christ, “who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,” while some might want to consider the Spirit of Holiness to not be the Holy Spirit, but I think that would be a stretch.
Romans 1:1-4
Also, 1 Thessalonians 1:1-5 shows that as PART of his introduction, Paul was giving thanks to God, bearing in mind their work of faith…in our Lord Jesus Christ… for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.
Peter wrote in his intro
1 Peter 1:2
You said,
Well, at least I know that universal salvation is not the only heresy you hold to. And at least you know where I stand on the issue. :)
God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God.
While Paul may not have greeted people with the Holy Spirit, we know without a doubt that Paul recognized the difference and distinction between the three.
Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:9
Paul recognized a a difference and distinction between Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Romans 15:16
Paul recognized a a difference and distinction between God and the Holy spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19
In fact, Paul recognized a difference and distinction between the three of them.
2 Corinthians 13:14
for more discussion regarding the trinity of God, see my posts:
It uses every day English that people can understand. I think we should study scripture in languages we understand. It would be hard for me to study scripture in Japanese, as I dont understand it. While I can understand most of the KJV without too much difficulty, there are passages I have to decipher and others I would not recognize the nuances in if I were not familiar with the scriptures in other translations.
It was not until THIS comment that I realized you were addressing the idea that Christ was sending Himself.
I addressed that above.
No, Jesus did not call himself the spirit of truth. He said HE is the truth.
He said he would SEND the spirit of truth.
John 14:16-17
Notice JESUS said the Helper is the Spirit of truth. and that Jesus would send Him from the FATHER, and that HE would testify about JESUS.
John 15:26
John 16:13-15 tells us that the Spirit of Truth would guide us into all truth, and Jesus is using pronouns other than “I” to describe Him.
well, we agree about this. :)
No, its not just interpretation. Its the fact that you are ignoring scripture, ignoring context of passages, substituting the meaning of one word for another, and differing interpretation.
I agree with this statement. But what that means is where our interpretations differ. I have written on this as well:
How little universalists know of God’s righteousness and holiness.
First, let me say that to be saved, we have to believe in such a way as to have that belief engender change in us.
Acts 16:30-31
Romans 10:9-10
Second, I imagine I would be thrilled if God saved everyone. But how will YOU feel to discover that God is a holy righteous judge who demands people to trust in Christ, and those who do not will end up dying eternally in the second death, and your friends or family could have gone to be with Christ in heaven had you only shared the fact that they had to choose Christ BEFORE physical death?
If I am wrong, I (and no one else) have lost nothing. If you are wrong, people have lost EVERYTHING.
As I said in my last comment, this is becoming pointless. Not only are we disagreeing over what I have said, many times you have MISREAD what I said and addressed something other than what I said.
For example, I never said that Jesus Christ called HIMSELF “the spirit of truth”. I said that he called THE COMFORTER “the spirit OF TRUTH”. And I pointed out to you that Jesus Christ IS “the truth” So who is the spirit~OF~ Truth? Is it not the spirit ~OF~ Christ, if Christ IS THE TRUTH?
Good grief, Jesus even said: “I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.”. He was talking about sending “the Comforter” when he said that.
It is not JESUS coming to live in us, but THE SPIRIT OF Christ, even THE SPIRIT OF God. The same spirit that was IN JESUS, that made Him “the Christ” and that will conform us into HIS IMAGE.
And, yes I will be thrilled when all men come to a knowledge of the truth!! And no man is going to be lost BECAUSE OF ME, Mr, Moore. You give me way too much credit. And you give yourself way too much credit if you are taking credit for saving a single soul.
Regardless of who is right and who is wrong here, there is NO ONE who can take those who are His out of HIS HANDS. Those who are His HEAR HIS VOICE and they follow HIM. And neither you, nor I can cause a single one of them to be lost.
And neither do those who believe in the salvation of all men go around telling people to PUT OFF their faith because it doesn’t really matter. But neither do we tell people to “repent or God will torture you for all eternity; He’s prepared a special place just for that purpose.”
Anyone who comes to God out of the FEAR of what he will do to them if they don’t doesn’t have A SAVING FAITH anyway. So a message of “love God or else” isn’t going to save anyone either – if either of our messages even COULD “save” anyone.
PS… I never said there was not a distinction between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I said they are ONE GOD and you cannot have 1/3 of God abiding in you.
Not really. You might have meant to. But it was not clear. the onus of communication is on the communicator. If you are unable to share the message you are intending to, it is not the fault of your listener, but of you.
YES, Christ said he would come to believers. In fact, Christ lives in believers (Galatians 2:20). But He also said He would ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God (AKA the Holy Spirit) lives in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:14). God lives within believers (2 Corinthians 6:16).
Christine, I dont give you credit, nor do I take credit for anyone being saved. I have been used of God to lead people to faith in Christ. But that is God’s doing – I just listen and obey.
However, I also know that sometimes people can be a stumbling block. We do not KNOW whether everyone is predetermined to salvation regardless of what we each do or not do. We have our theories based upon our understanding of scripture. However, I know I will be held responsible for all I do on this earth and have to answer for my actions. Thankfully, I will be considered righteous and be able to live with God. Will you?
Will your friends listen to what you have to say and look at how you live and avoid making a decision? Or will it encourage them to put their faith in Christ and obey Him?
I didnt say universalists say to people to put off their faith. I said because of the fact that you teach that people will be saved regardless of whether they obey God or not, regardless of whether they have faith in Christ or not, and regardless of whether they must repent or obey God, this will cause some to say then “I’m not gonna worry about it and just party” instead of accepting Christ.
No, if you are wrong, then you will NOT be thrilled, because you will find that when they DO come to a knowledge of the truth (if it is after death), it will be too late to make a difference. It will be like the rich man and Lazarus, where people will be suffering and no one can go over to relieve that suffering, and it will be too late to make a different choice. So many people who might have had salvation and eternal life with God will be in eternal destruction in the lake of fire.
Yes, God is a god of love. God IS LOVE. But God is so much more than that. God is holy, righteous, and just. He WILL JUDGE. We see in 2 Kings 23:25-27 that even though no king had been or would be like Josiah who turned to the Lord with all his heart and all his soul and all his strength, “the LORD did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger.” God let Josiah die before He released his wrath upon Judah. He was kind to Josiah, but He judged Judah. The same will happen to believers and non-believers, except it will have eternal consequences.
While you might not like the idea of fearing God, Acts 9:31 tells us, “The church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit.”
Paul said he did what he did because we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, receive what is due us for what we did while in the body, and knowing the fear of the Lord, he persuaded men.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11
We should trust Christ because we love God. But believing in Christ will save us, regardless of the motivation.
In fact it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance which leads to salvation.
2 Corinthians 7:10 NIV
But if we believe, if we truly have faith, we WILL repent, we WILL confess, we WILL be baptized, we LOVE God, we ARE justified, we ARE sanctified, we ARE saved, we HAVE eternal life, we will NOT face eternal destruction.
Its not hard. Yet, its one of the hardest things imaginable, to have faith in what God has done for us and let that change us. And so many will not receive what God has provided. Why be a stumbling block?
Better to trust what God has done and said and encourage others to believe God raised Christ from the dead, repent, confess Christ, and have deeds appropriate to repentance (Acts 16:30-31; Acts 26:20; James 2:14-19, Romans 10:9-10).
with your clarification, I can see you did intend to call the comforter the spirit of truth. But this is yet another example of how you are confusing.
Communication is not generally considered to be one-sided sir. Certainly a writer can be unclear and confusing. But you have shown repeatedly how easily you MISREAD something by the number of times you have repeated things back INCORRECTLY, even CHANGING my words and claiming I said something that was never even said to begin with. That sir, has nothing to do with me, that’s a result of your carelessness in reading because you more interested in disproving what was said than understanding what was said,
Communication is something I know more than a little about. I have taught children, teenagers, adults. I have taught and counseled people from different countries, and different languages. I have worked with people in different environments, and different cultures. I have communicated with people in mental institutions, schools, and the corporate world – from the lowest people on the totem pole to people at the highest echalon of international companies.
I know when I want to get a message across in an arena where I can not see people’s expressions or hear their tone of voice, I need to be as detailed and specific as possible. I need to use common terms in normal patterns of usage, I need to define terms (particularly when I use terms in ways different than is the usual usage) and I need to ensure my message is being understood, because while *I* know what I mean the other person might not – even though they might think they understand what I have communicated.
You say one thing, I restate it, you agree/ignore/correct/clarify, I restate, we repeat – that is how communication works. There are times when you have corrected me and I have accepted said correction (particularly when what you said could be easier understood with your correction). Other times, you corrected me and I would let you know that what was communicated was not what you were saying, and you simply could not accept that what you had said and what you meant were two entirely different things. If you cant take the fact that you are confusing and need work on communicating your message more clearly, then go write on your own blog.
If I was presenting a discussion on something which you did not say, then you had no need to jump in and defend yourself or the heresy involved – since it was not what you had said in the first place.
Good grief. You’re one of those people!! Those who think that they can tell other people what they believe and what they mean because “you” know better. Are you for real?
I know how to communicate, Mr. Moore. But there is a huge difference between conducting a class or a conference for business purposes and communication spiritual truths. Though you may believe that spiritual truths are just as easy to understand as anything else in this world, the scriptures beg to differ and so do I.
So while you are free to believe that I need to be “expunged of my demons of confusion”, there are those who aren’t the least bit confused by what I say and who even agree with it. So write about whatever you want on your blogs, but do not write about ME and then tell me that I don’t have the right to jump in and defend myself when you misrepresent ME.
If you are going to refer to other people in your blogs, then have the decency to represent what they said/believe correctly or don’t use them in your blogs at all. Or don’t call youself a man of God. God doesn’t take kindly to those who bear false witness. But then you should know that.
You want me not to comment on your blogs? THEN LEAVE ME OUT OF THEM.
I tell you what you are communicating. It may not be what you meant, and that’s fine. But it IS the message you communicate.
I was not talking about merely teaching a class or a conference – I was speaking of preaching, teaching, evangelizing, and discipling.
The only people who could understand you would be those who have a similar demon of confusion or delusion. Its too easy to see that not everyone will be saved.
You have the right to say what you want. I was simply saying that if something is wrong, then you have no need to defend yourself. But you feel free, God bless your heart. :) May God bless you with a removal of blinders and open your heart to the truth.
I have represented what was communicated. I have corrected what was represented based upon your comments. You however, cant seem to accept any correction. It appears you have an unteachalble spirit.
But so be it. Have a fun time of it.
If you dont want people to discuss your erros in doctrine, dont make any.