Some believe men should lead in marriage and women should be subject to their husbands. Others believe that scripture does not state women should be subject to men. The argument goes like this:
How much Bible evidence can you give for husbands’ authority over wifes, or ruler of homes? To recap, verses telling slaves to obey DO NOT teach that God’s design is for masters to have authority as slave owners, and verses telling women to submit should be read in a similar fashion. If you want to develop a Bible doctrine of male authority being God’s plan from the “women submit” verses, it would be as much a fallacy, as to develop a doctrine of slave owner authority being God’s plan from the teachings to slaves.
I agree that scripture concerning being a good master does not say there should be masters and slaves, but merely regulates that relationship.
However, this same thing can not be said for whether there should be husband and wife. Scripture is clear that woman was made for man.
Genesis 2:
18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Further, Scripture tells us that the woman is to be ruled by her husband, because Eve was deceived.
Genesis 3:16
16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
We see this expanded to the idea that a woman should not have authority over men because Eve was deceived – apparently Paul was speaking of authority in spiritual matters, and possibly limited to doctrine or the church environment, depending on one’s understanding of the context.
1 Timothy 2:12-14
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Further still, scripture tells us the wife should submit to her husband.
Ephesians 5:22
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Now, I suppose one could still argue that women should not be subject to men, but this would only be true if the church is not subject to Christ. But scripture tell us that the church IS subject to Christ and in the same way, a wife should be subject to her husband.
Ephesians 5:23-25
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
To summarize, a man is subject to Christ. A wife is subject to her husband. The church together are subject to Christ. So while some might want to claim that men and women are to fulfill similar roles in the home, the Bible is clear that men are to lead and women are subject to their own husbands.
Filed under: Bible, God, Leadership, Marriage |
Wbmoore's Biblical Insights 
Wbmoore, this is not an argument (yet) but an opportunity for you to explain your view better. You heading has “men should lead and women should follow.” That goes a lot further than “”husbands should lead and wifes should follow.”
Here are a few very diverse examples of cases, and you should tell me if men’s lead over women should apply here: (In none of these cases are the two husband and wife.)
> A qualified female paramedic, and a man who only took a first aid course, is on an accident scene.
> A man tries to rape a women.
> A man tries to seduce a women.
> A woman is in the shop and loads brand X margarine into her trolley. A man tells her to rather buy brand Y.
> A woman and man do the same job for the same company. They have equal experience and are on the same level in company hierarchy. The man say they should rather follow a different procedure.
> A female business owner interviews potential employees. Should she only hire women, as she should not lead males?
> Two members of a church go in seperate cars to attend the same conference. She knows the way. He does not.
> The male unbelieving pastor in a Chinese church (the goverment appoint leaders in the Three Self Church there) tells two women to stop photocopying Bible portions and gospel tracts for other Christians.
> Suppose a blog argument take place about Bible understanding. Suppose the woman’s view is more scripturally supported than those of the man she argues with. Should he learn something, or should only the female
Where does the men lead and women follow apply, outside of marriage? Who’se lead should a 21-year old single girl who’se dad passed away/ a 35-year-old divorced mother (let’s assume she was divorced for Biblically acceptable reasons) / a 47-year old spinster/ a 64-year old widow follow?
Hi Retha.
Are you sure this is not an argument? It certainly appears as if you are looking for a fight.
It is clear from the opening line of my post that I am speaking of marriage. I think the Bible is clear that men should lead in marriage and in the church. A woman should submit to her own husband (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 3:1), and ask questions of him at home rather than in church (1 Corinthians 14:35). She should submit to him even if he is not a Christian (1 Peter 3:1). The only exception would be that she should not follow him in sin (Deuteronomy 13:6-8; Proverbs 1:10; Acts 5:1-10).
Retha, what do you think?
Have you read any or all of the Bible passages that describe and explain the intended relationship between men and women, which includes the married and the unmarried? If not, I would suggest you do so and I would also suggest you do so with a heart open to God’s Word and Will when you do. Also, if your heart is not open on this then I would also suggest refraining from making openly antagonistic comments about something you are having difficulty accepting.
The Bible is very clear on this issue, and it couldn’t be an easier to understand at all. However, unless you’re purposely trying to be difficult because you don’t accept it or agree with it, then I don’t see what the problem is. God is the changer of hearts not men, or women, so if this is the conflict your having them please pray to Him about it and I will do the same for you.
In Christ,
Andrew
Thanks for clearing that up. And argument was not used in the sense of fighting, but of stating a case.
You people repeatedly speak how women are to submit, yet hardly mention the husbands responsibility which is usually given in more words than the wifes.
I think the limits of submission stop somewhat earlier than following in sin. For example: A father insult his daughter (undeservedly) regularly in such a harsh way that it has a long term effect on how she sees herself and how she relates to men. The wife submit to her husband by not saying to the girl, either before the father or behind his back, that these comments are not true. The wife do not follow in sin- she never insulted the daughter. But she neglected her duty to love her child and manage her household, if she does not, a) tell him that he scars the girl by his words and b) tell the daughter that this is not true and she should not see herself that way.
Retha,
Can you show me in scripture where the limits in submission are?
I think we are supposed to submit to those above us in authority because of God, not because of those we submit to. The only limit I can see is that we are not to sin. Of course, all God’s commands must be done simultaneously where possible. This means love and kindness and mercy and forgiveness and respect must be practiced while submitting to those in authority – and while leading.
I have done some posts on the roles/behaviors of husbands as well as wives. But people dont tend to argue when you tell them to love, to be respectful, to encourage. I can even tell people to submit to their bosses or to the law and I rarely get argument. However, tell women of today to submit, and its common to have women come tell me all about how unfair it is, or how there are limits (or should be limits), how men dont deserve it, etc.
It is not about what feels good or fair or convenient, nor it is about the man (regardless of whether he is nice or a tyrant). It is about God.
God said to love and obey HIM – do you only do that when it appears easy? Do you only obey God when its convenient? Do you only obey God when it appears to be worth it? Do you only obey God when it is “fair?”
As for your scenario of the wife not mitigating the misbehavior of the man mentioned above, If she did not show love then she sinned.
if the man who leads is a Godly man, then he will include his daily life and include her opinion, therefore its not a limits on submission. There are ways to write where it is clear NOONE would take this offensely. my husband didnt even appreciate the way you broke your whole page down. remember Christian men are peaceful loving and patient.
Perhaps YOU could have found a way to discuss submission where no one would be offended. Its been my experience that most women are offended at the idea of submitting to their own husbands. This is doubly true for men who are not godly.
Maybe I might have been able to write this differently. But I’m not sure it would have said what needed to be said. Please, feel free to tackle doing so if you feel so led by God.
Yes, in a perfect world, a Christian man will always be led by and submit to God. But often a woman is asked by God to show reverence for God by submitting to an ungodly man. In those instances, there most certainly IS a limit to submission.
We must try to reflect God in all we are and do, but we all have limits. Sometimes a wife is ungodly, sometimes a husband is ungodly. Jesus is our model and HE certainly had limits to his patience (ie.. Whipping the money changers). Because of difference responses from different people, we must be careful to submit to God appropriately.
I like your answer. Do not assume I have problems with submission. (This weekend on my blog, I will answer how it is possible to believe in submission, and still Biblically disbelieve the men-should-lead thesis.)
Between us we made clear the important point that sin could also be through inaction when we should act, and there we agree. Sin is certainly the limit to submission, but sin should not be defined too narrowly.
Your earlier comments led one to believe you are against submission of a wife to her husband, or a church member to his/her church leaders.
Sin is not narrowly defined by God. He has provided certain explicit examples, but it is anything not done in faith. This leads to a lot of things being considered sin, even if we might think them to be good things.
I am curious to see how you justify the idea of men not having to be the leaders in the marriage or in church.
Judge not (the sin) lest ye be judged, and don’t forget to take the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from someone else’s
WBMOORE, I am going to answer why so many people (both men and women) just cannot accept your argument that husbands should lead at all times. It is pretty simply… First, it makes very little sense for a wife to submit to her husband in ALL cases. There are so many exceptions where it just does not make sense to follow. For example, if a wife is a medical doctor and the husband is a economics professor. Any reasonably bright man would follow his wifes lead on all health related issues regarding the family. This is one example where a husband should follow his wife.
There are countless other examples where a man should follow his wifes lead. Most intelligent couples know this and form a working partnership based on the strengths of each person.
Basic common sense says your argument just does not work. Normal intelligent people see the flaws and adjust their lives accordingly (i.e. form a partnership with their spouse). The scripture just cannot be that out of whack with reality leading to the fact that different interpretations must exist that make more sense.
I think you confuse wisdom and leadership with knowledge and skill. If we were discussing ability or knowledge, you might have a point – but not really. One can be quite able in certain areas without being able in other areas. Plenty of managers and CEOs have no idea how to most of the jobs that are required to be done in their company or management area. Yet, that has no bearing on who is leading. Leadership is a separate issue from the skills and knowledge necessary to do certain functions.
Leaders take advantage of (utilize) people and their knowledge and skills to accomplish a goal. This is what a husband is to do – lead his family to raise and train the children to know, love, and trust God and advance the family.
But actually, that is not addressing the point of this post. The point of THIS post is what does GOD say about who is to lead in marriage?
God said that a husband is to lead his wife.
Some wives have more wisdom and ability to lead as well. That’s the crux of the issue and how to deal with reality as it relates to different interpretations of the bible. It is very difficult to ignore the elephant in the room which is reality – some wives simply are stronger leaders.
I wouldn’t disagree with the idea that some people, regardless of gender are better at certain things than others, including leading.
But Eve allowed herself to be deceived and Adam allowed himself to take the easy way out and for that reason God made a judicial decree of cursing against both man and wife.
So, do you go with what you think is best or what the Bible clearly specifies? Your choice, obey or find a way to excuse what you want.
What was Adam’s curse again?
Adam was made to rule his wife and was made to work to eat and death come to mankind.
Genesis 3:16-17
God doesn’t tell us that the best leader between the two sexes should lead, He tells us quite clearly that the man should lead within marriage and within the Church. Therefore, it makes absolutely no difference if a woman or any group of women are better equipped with the wisdom and ability to do so or not.
Women are still not meant to lead in those areas. A child in a classroom or a house may be far better at technology than their teacher or parent but that doesn’t give them any authority over them whatsoever. Skills and abilities don’t give people authority, God gives it to them.
I said judicial decree because Genesis 3:11-19 is a judicial decree that was passed in judgement of Satan and Eve and Adam.
Because of what the various parties did, God decreed certain things would occur.
The serpent is cursed; it will go about on its belly; there will be enmity between it and the woman and the offspring of both (indeed, this is thought to be a prophecy of Christ coming to conquer Satan).
God will increase Eve’s pain in childbirth, yet she will desire her husband and he will rule over her.
The ground is cursed because of Adam and he must toil all the days of his life to eat of it. Man will eat vegetables of the field. The ground will grow thorns and thistles. Man will sweat to eat bread.
Now in reference to has the better ability to lead, there are plenty of examples of inept leadership in the world, so saying the better qualified is the one who would be leader doesnt even work in the world.
God did not say man would be better qualified or even a better leader, but that the man would be the leader because of what Eve had done (or allowed to be done to her, or was done to her, depending on how you read it).
I am not Eve. Just because I have the same parts does not make me Eve. You think it’s fair to punish every woman for all time to be treated basically as children their whole lives and be treated with disregard and disrespect and their opinions ignored because a man thinks because he was lucky enough to have been born with a penis gets to revel in Adams privilege? Nobody chooses our gender. This is as bad as casteist thought in Hinduism which says Souls are born in female bodies as a punishment for past karmas and her dharam in life is to serve men for several lifetimes before hoping to be born in a male body and enjoy the privilege that comes with it. Hindu women are treated as servants and under complete authority of men. This is sounding no different! Being born a female is a punishment so what did my soul do to deserve this lesser surlbordinate crappy life as a woman, if Christianity doesn’t even believe in reincarnation?
By the way doesn’t it say that leadership in Christianity is NOT based on authority but on being a servant?? Therefore shouldn’t the husband lay down authority and instead lead by example (as we say in the military) and be the servant?? That would include not demanding last say on everything and allowing his wife to lead. But even then I cringe that anything involving the wife has to be ‘allowed’ by husband. I wish women had the same authority over their husbands. It’s really sucks being female to the point I contemplated suicide when I was younger and still in Christian religion.
First let me say I am sorry you have been to where you contemplated suicide.
The idea of God having made men to be leaders in the home has little to do with being fair or not fair in the eyes of mankind. This reminds me of what Paul wrote in Romans 9, speaking of salvation. God has the right to treat His creation how ever He chooses – including making some male and others female.
Romans 9:18-24
We have done nothing to merit being born male or female. God chose us to be who we are. And being born one gender is not a punishment.
THAT reminds me of what Jesus said in John 9:1-7 concerning a man who was born blind.
God makes us the way we are made so the works of God may be displayed in us.
Yes, Christ is our servant leader.
Yes, we are to imitate Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:1-13
But while we are to serve, we are also to lead.
Ephesians 5:23
Woman was created for man, not the other way around – but we are not independent. Each of us needs the other.
1 Corinthians 11:8-12
We are each placed where we are – even in marriage – by God, for the purpose of God. one is not more important than another.
1 Corinthians 12:14-21
so for how people in a marriage should treat each other, I have written a few posts on this.
Behavior of the Couple (positive)
Behavior of the couple (negative)
Behavior of the Husband (positive)
Behavior of the Husband (negative)
Behavior of the wife (positive)
Behavior of the wife (negative)
God also gave us the ability to reason and to think on our own to make this world a better place.
I am not content with allowing my reasoning and basic common sense to be suppressed. God wants us to think and to act in smart ways that are better for the world. This is one way we can be more enlightend.
I am not saying to suppress your reasoning. I agree we should work smart and be good stewards of what God has given us. But we have to be careful to not disobey God. When our reasoning goes beyond what God has said, when it ignores or contradicts what God has said, then we put ourselves and others in danger.
Often what sounds good is not what God would have us do.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
18 Let no man deceive himself If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; 20 and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.”
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Above all, we need to trust God, to obey God. Christ is source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him – not for those those who ignore scripture and decide they know better than God.
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
I also want to say that this does not mean many husbands are not great leaders and worthy of that post. Just that not all are and that it does not make sense.
Having a great loving mutually respectful relationship that allows for great community involvement, ability to raise well adjusted and beautiful children sometimes happens with leadership from the wife. It just does.. it is reality.
You can claim it is not and the male is the leader, but sometimes it just is not so. Even when all the love and goodness that is meant by God exists in the family.
This is the elephant in the room.
Thank you for having this conversation. I appreciate your openness on the subject. I also think your efforts and contributions to others is very profound and good.
I agree that sometimes the woman is the better leader. That has NEVER been my contention. If I have given that impression, please forgive me as I never intended to state that.
There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt that some men are idiots. :) Others are jerks. :) Others are simply incapable of making good decisions and the best decision the man makes (in terms of earthly living) is to let his wife make most of the decisions.
BUT, and this is a big but, IS that what GOD said to do?
For me, it all boils down to what does God say.
Thank you for your kind words. I try to allow myself to be used by God to teach His word in all areas of life. I’m sure I make mistakes. But one has to show me in scripture and not argue from the world to make me see it. I can agree with you about how things appear based upon our personal experiences, but if the scripture says something different, then I have to realize my perception of reality may be tainted by the sin in the world, or that I may not understand WHY God has said something and I need to study further.
For me, its all about what has God said….
The question is whether we are understanding the interpretation. Is there a more wise way to interprete the bible to help the world be a better place.
I had a Catholic priest once tell me that the written word in the bible is very difficult to interprete. That is why jesus lead by example and did not write anything down himself. He believed that he needed to lead by example and that written word would lead people astray. Gandhi believed this too. That is the hard part about understanding the written word. That is why common sense and individual thinking is so important.
Personally, I think MOST of the written word of God is easy to understand, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It becomes harder when we allow our sin nature to not allow us to hear or accept what God says. And ALL of us do that.
Let us go about this differently, how do you understand Genesis 3:11-17?
Well, I think it is deep and symbolic. Eve ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge. God warned her because once you eat from the tree of knowledge you are no longer innocent. You grow and learn.
Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, he would grow and learn as well. The curse of knowledge also brings the curse of evil. Evil is what causes man to exercise his dominence over women. The dominence did not exist until evil from eating from the tree of knowledge existed.
A blissful existence is where Adam and Eve are partners in paradise. The more we are equal/partners the closer we are to god and to the original culture of Eden.
The Tree of Knowledge is both a curse and a blessing. God doesn’t believe that Adam should rule, he knows that the tree of Knowledge will cause Adam to learn how to use his strength to dominate Eve even though it is not what God wants for Adam and Eve (or Men and Woman).
That’s a beautiful image. I would caution that we do not know what form of government God intended. There is little in scripture about how much time passed from when God had created Adam to when he created Eve – other than it was done on the sixth day. There is also little said about the relationship between Adam and Eve other than she was made for Him. We are only told that God decreed that Eve would be ruled by Adam AFTER the sin, we know nothing of what happened before.
But let me ask, what were the results of the sins of Adam and Eve?
The story is quite symbolic and difficult to fully understand because of some of the inconsistencies with our modern time. We can still learn from it, but I think we need to be careful to take it too literally.
I believe it was meant for a people who could not read or write. They needed guidance to help under stand the world around them. Medicine at the time was very limited. Life was simply very very different. Fortunately, most people can now read and write. We also live a lot longer. We have a lot more resources and we are able to live differently now. The same core principles/messages will always be relevant, but much has changed in our daily experiences.
Women do not have to endure a lot of physical pain anymore during child birth (modern medicine has changed that). Men do not have to take on the entire burden of providing for the family (women now help with that). Men also do not have labor intensive jobs in farming like they used to. Modern equipment has changed that entirely. Many of the punishments for eating the fruit no longer exists. Life has changed a lot for many people. How do you explain that?
I see it as literal with some symbolism. But it is a historical account of what God has done and what Adam and Eve did.
You might think women do not have to endure pain in childbirth, and perhaps in your case it was. But I was present for the births of all my children, and I was there afterwards. Its painful, even with medication and even with an epidural, and its painful afterwards. I’ve known women for whom childbirth was relatively easy, but they still claimed it was painful both during or afterwards or both – with and without medicine and epidurals. Painful child birth is something that is a reality.
Men are still laboring to get food – many of whom are farming or ranching, others in less dirty jobs but stressful, or difficult, or dangerous, none-the-less. The punishment will never be abated, regardless of what utopia people might want to create, until Christ returns.
Okay. Obviously if you take the bible literally then we will not be on the same page. I have a hard time with the inconsistencies and the problems that things do not match reality.
I have had two children. With proper medications child birth is not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. 1 in 4 women used to die due to the pain and complications. This is simply not the case anymore. Also, most women with modern medicine simply do not experience the same pain and complications women of the past had to endure. They simply don’t. It is still painful, just not what it used to be.
Also, the working conditions with modern equipment has significantly changed the reality for most men (at least in industrialized countries). It just is different. And, women work as hard as men do now to share the burden. Life is simply different.
thanks for the conversation
In closing, have you ever thought that husbands ruling over wives might actually be evil?
I think maybe that is why the world is slowly changing. Good does prevail over evil and women are gaining more power to control our own destinies.
I am saddened that people like you who are so motivated trying to be good cannot see how evil it is to preach this.
Wow. So you have decided to sit in judgement on the judgement of God?
As far as I can tell, what we might call evil, God intends for good.
Genesis 50:20
“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Personally, I dont think we are in a place where we can decide what God has done is good or evil, since HE is the one who sets the rules. Oh, we can look at it and say it doesnt seem fair or we dont like it, but Go d himself has said who are you to do so?
Romans 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
It saddens me when I see people put their thoughts above God’s….
No, I do not think God is evil. I think your interpretation of the bible and the actions that follow based on that interpretation can be evil.
I think God is a loving God that does not intend for husbands to rule over their wives because of the evil it causes around the world.
God is all knowing, all powerful, holy, righteous, and just, as well as loving. His very nature demands justice. He decreed a judicial decree that the woman would be ruled by her husband. Of course God knew the consequences.
IF God did not intend for husbands to rule over their wives, why would He tell them to do exactly that?
As for the website, I think there are differing degrees of leaderhip and “ruling.” I dont know how much of what he was staying is hyperbole and how much is how he feels.
But I agree with the idea that divorce should be next to impossible – but I would say for both parties. People should be required to work out problems in a marriage and people who abandon their marriage should not benefit by doing so. Nor should one parent be allowed to take their children to live in homes where drug abuse or extra-marital sex is occuring against the desires of the other parent. I think each spouse should fulfill their duties in a marriage and as a parent. By the same token, wives should not abuse husbands and husbands should not abuse wives.
I dont think it is evil to expect people to meet their responsibilities.
If you are preaching that women’s punishment and judgement is to be ruled by their husbands then why are men not still in fields digging with their hands? Technology and modern society have all but removed men’s supposed judgement of working by the sweat of their brow (sitting in an air conditioned office isn’t much of a punishment is it? Nor is working at all really since most people feel fulfillment at their career accomplishments. In other words pursuing a career doesn’t feel like any sort of punishment at all. So if men can better their punishment through technology and advancement allowing them to do other things like desk jobs in a cushy ac building, or a fulfilling career in medicine or running a business etc, and women too btw, and not have to literally dig the ground with bare hands anymore, then why can’t women also better their judgement by levelling the playing field with their husbands by assuming half the authority in the marriage? Because if you are all for women taking their due punishments then you also believe in withholding pain medicine in childbirth, regardless if the woman is in distress because the bible also says that’s part of the punishment to ‘suffer’. You don’t see how cruel that is? Do you think it’s just in any sense of the word to see women who are very much NOT Eve to suffer horrible pain when there is medical advances to stop it? If you can’t watch your wife writhe in severe and intractable pain in birth without wanting her to have relief even if she is screaming and writhing in pain, then you also should have no issue with ending her suffering under subjection. You can’t pick and choose. Does Christian God like watching humans suffer?
And in the grand scheme of things how did men get off so easy to begin with as heir only punishment (such as it is) is to work by the sweat of their brow??? I don’t see any thorns pricking men’s hands anymore…
I think that interpreting those passages as a command is wrong. They were just a foretelling of what men would do in their fallen nature. More of he will rule over you now.. not I command him to rule over you. Of course males will always interpret it in the way that benefits them the most though.
You are free to interpret as you want. Its clear that scripure is saying the husband is the head and the wife is to submit.
I have no problem with women and men having jobs outside the home. Many women in Christ’s time did also. Christ honored women. But this does not change what God’s word says.
My wife would be the first to tell you she is not suffering and is grateful for my leadership.
There will be no suffering in heaven.
Rev 21:4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away,
God heals. Christ healed. God provides food and water for people. Every good thing comes from God.
In fact, suffering did not enter the world until Adam and Eve chose to sin in Genesis 3. So God’s creation did not begin with suffering and will not end, with suffering. So no, I dont think God enjoys seeing His creation suffer, but He takes joy in our growth and in our obedience which demonstrates our love. But our actions have consequences. Sometimes those consequences are long lasting – especially when everything affects everything else. And part of those consequences is growth.
What we suffer through are light in comparison to what we will receive in the end.
Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
And it helps us grow and mature.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
We think that our suffering is long and God is slow in giving us the “great reward”.
but God is not slow so much as patient. He gives people opportunities to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance,
Suffering, trials, tribulations, hardships, pain and persecution are only momemntary. They are tools in the hand of a wise, compassionate, sovereign and skillful potter (or weaver, or surgeon). These things are used by God to grow in us things of inestimable value, such as love (1 corinthians 13), steadfastness (James 1:2-3), endurance, character, hope (Romans 5:3-4), holiness, righteousness (Hebrews 12:3-11), praise, glory and honor (1 Peter 1:6-7).
Parents do not like to watch their children suffer, but their children have to learn and sometimes the consequences of their choices are painful but effective learning tools. God doesnt have to enjoy something for it to be useful in our growth.
John 11:1-44 tells the story of Lazarus dying. Jesus delayed to ensure Lazarus would die, which in turned caused Mary and Martha to suffer. But it was for a purpose. Jesus brought Lazarus back to life so the people would believe in Him.
Even if we cant see it, suffering has its purpose in our lives.
Peter wrote that wives are to submit to their own husbands so that if any of them are not saved, they might be won over by thew behavior of their wives.
1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives
But I think people have too high a view of themselves and not a high enough view of God. God created us – we are like legos, or pottery. He gets to decide what to do with His creation. God decides if a piece of pottery is to be used as a vase, a plate, a bowl, a spittoon, a chamber pot, or gets remade into something else, or is to be broken and those shards used in the making of something else all together. The Potter gets to decide, not the pottery.
As for why cant wives assume authority, its not theirs to assume. The husband will be held accountable for his actions and will have to answer for those of his family. The wife can certainly give input and even have responsibility to run the household or the finances or whatever – but the ultimate responsibility will lie with the husband.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/deadbeat_dads.htm
Here’s an example (the link above) of someones interpretation of the bible that manifests itself into evil misguided behavior.
Well, I strongly believe it is evil to believe that a certain group of people should rule over another group of people regardless of worthiness. It is an ignorant and blind view of reality. God cannot be this unloving.
He did not instruct husbands to rule over their wives. He said that the tree of knowledge will cause that to happen. Husbands ability to learn will cause this. Not that he wanted it to happen. That is very very different. Thus the interpretation difference. It is obvious. I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you if you are so enlightened and worthy of doing good work.
What we BELIEVE about what is good or evil is irrelavant. What matters is what GOD SAID. GOD gets to determine right and wrong, not you. God is VERY loving to discipline disobedience. Those He loves, He diciplines. If he spared Adam and Eve, He would not have loved them, but in fact He would have shown hate.
Proverbs 3:12
Proverbs 13:24
Hebrews 12:6
Revelation 3:19
It is not about worthiness. Its about sin and the just punishment of it. Nothing was said about ability to learn – you are adding that to the text. The decree was about sin and its punishment. This is made even more evident when you look at 1 Timothy 2:11-15. the woman was deceived, so women are not allowed to lead in church, nor in the home.
Go back and look at the text. God said BECAUSE of what Satan, Eve, and Adam had done, HE will…. Its not a natural consequence of what happened, its a judicial decree. If it were simply a natural consequence of what occurred, it would not have said “I will”.
Genesis 3:14-19
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
God made a judicial decree that husband would lead his wife. You ignore that because it offends your sensibilities, but those sensibilities are more in line with what Satan would have you believe than what God said.
You mislead. Even with your quotes, it’s clear that GOD did not say “I will make the man rule …”. It said, “…and he will rule over…”. I would have to agree then with your opposition. It look as though GOD starts each “decree” with what HE will do and then lists everything that will follow as a result.
I’m not misleading. I’m laying it out like it is.
God laid it out as a judicial decree: “Because you have done that, this, this, and this will happen”. A judge says you will serve 30 days in prison and then be on probation for 2 years. He doesnt normally say the judge is making the one being judged served probation (although the judge can and occasionally does do so).
It is also amazing that you are unable to utilize your ability to think and rationalize. God wants you to think about what love means. Ruling over someone does not constitute love and kindness. Equal loving partnership does.
You should be wise enough to see this and preach this. I am disappointed in your inability to see this and teach this to others. You could help the world be a better place instead of perpetuating evil.
I sincerely hope God will enable you to grow and learn to see things in a more healthy and productive way for this world.
take care… and god bless.
I am quite able to reason. What else I am able to do is put God’s word and will ahead of my own – at least much of the time. What I see YOU doing is putting your thoughts and desires above what God has said.
God has never said ruling is not loving. Nor has God ever said being in an equal relationship is love.
You are defining what love is. But that ignores what God has already said about love.
1 John 5:3
2 John 1:6
1 John 5:2
1 John 3:16
1 John 2:5
1 Corinthians 13:4-8a
And man is to be as described in Titus 1:7-9
Mr Moore, I see your claim that man leads in marriage is centred on Genesis 3 where God is telling Adam and Eve what the consequences of their sin are. So He is describing the curse on the marital relationship, right? So…did Christ die and rise again for man’s redemption from the curse.,.or not? Which means the curse on the marital relationship is lifted…right?
Men and women are to lead together in marriage and family. Both’s leadership are needed because both carry God’s image. God never gave a man authority over his family. It is in the sinful nature of a man to desire power over a woman and it is in a woman’s sinful nature to want a man to rule over here. This was not the original divine intent. These sinful desires within man and woman cause us to misinterpret the logos to satisfy our flesh and tarnish the image of the Tri-une God even further.The original injunction was for both Adam and Eve to take dominion over the earth, and to complement each other. Not for one to rule over the other.
Actually, the curse was not upon the marital relationship so much as upon the people involved in sinning – the wife led the husband into sinning and he followed when he should have led her to not sin.
I find it curious that you claim it is sinful nature that causes men to want to lead and women to want to follow. I read scripture telling us that woman was created for man. I read scripture as telling us that men and women have roles in marriage where the man is to be the head of the household. I think it is sinful to seek to take authority in the home from the husband.
I do not know many women who want a man to rule over them. I find that most women who are not walking with God want to rule over men. I find most men who are not walking with God want to abdicate their responsibilities in the home to the wife. And in turn, wives often will step up to the vacuum in authority and responsibility created by the man’s abdication.
Christ died for our sins. But this does not remove the curse nor the physical ramifications of it in this lifetime. Christ’s death and resurrection allows us to be born again and live spiritually and enter into God’s presence. But there are still consequences to sin. Has God said the woman is lead the husband? No. Paul was quite clear that the wife is not to have authority over the husband because Eve was deceived. To say that God’s intent was not to have man lead over his wife is to ignore scripture.
Where in scripture do you see that Adam is to complement Eve? I see Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Yes, humanity was given dominion over the earth, but this does not mean they are not to have differing roles in that task.
If you think a woman is not be led by her husband, then you have been having your ears tickled.
wbmoore is absolutely correct. The reason there are so many problems between men and women (and divorces) is because they do not follow God’s commands. I have experienced this in my own marriage. Once I learned thru the word of God, what God expected from me and I became obedient to God and submitted to my husband the way God lovingly comands us to. My relationship and marriage has improved and is so much better and because of my obedience to God, it has helped my husband be the husband God desires him to be. I believe if we obey God by his word, God will work everything out for the good. Its trusting Him and believing what he commands is truth. He tells us our ways are not His ways and our understanding is not His understanding. I believe it is a dangerous territory to question God and feel that our way is better because it makes more sense to us. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change just because our culture changes.
I don’t understand this “no questioning” idea. How do you people intend to understand anything if you keep discouraging questioning? To figure out the why seems to be the whole point.To gain understanding and to not be mislead by false prophets and such. Also, just because you believe your situation worked out because you became a door mat for an insecure man doesn’t mean every one else’s will work out. Look up how many meek women are abused, killed, or simply confined to a harsh life because they are under the ruling of some idiot man. How many women throughout history have lived this reality. Lived lives with no means or job skills, terrorized by selfish men. History has shown how evil men’s rule has been. Is this not obvious knowledge? There’s a reason women rebel from this. There’s a real fear. Most people, in my experience do not wish ANYONE to rule over them (for fear of abuse and disgrace), however tot he contrary, many adults desire less responsibility. Unfortunately, to give up one is to potentially gain the other. And putting your life in the hands of another imperfect person is a serious gamble with lasting consequences.
I dont know for a fact, but I doubt that kjean was intending to say to not question God, if one needs more information. But to not question God as in no challenge God.
Personally, I think we have to question people to understand what they are saying and why. We have to question what is being said in scripture to be able to understand, and to decide whether to obey God or not. But ultimately, we must choose to obey God or face the consequences.
I realize many suffer. I also realize many in families with men who do not love God (not the same thing as someone who calls themselves a Christian) suffer. But as another commentator stated, women in India suffer in marriage and they are not in a marriage with a man who follows God.
This might make no sense to you. But a Christian is called to do the right thing – regardless of the temporal consequences in the here and now.
Sometimes we DO suffer in this life. But this does not mean we should do things God has said to not do. Neither does it mean we should not do the thing God has said to do. Whether we suffer or not, we need to obey God. Sometimes we will suffer for doing the right thing. That is preferable to suffering for doing the wrong things.
The Apostle Paul was shown what he had to suffer for the sake of Christ.
Acts 9:16
In fact, Christian are called to suffer for Christ.
Philippians 1:29
1 Peter 2:20-23
you are soooo right – putting your life in the hands of someone who is imperfect is scary and can be life threatening – yet people do it all the time – join the police, the military, the fire department, etc. We enter into relationships where we are told what to do and not do and when and how – yet in this society we dont want to consider that in marriage. We trust ourselves more than we trust God.
I don’t believe in the bible, or the master/slave type marriage it endorses. Wives are compared to slaves. Do wives really need a “head” or master to dominate and enslave them? Do wives really want to give away all their freedom? Are they even considered free people?
I dont think there is an idea of master-slave. The idea is one of hierarchy – God is head of Christ, Christ is head of the church, Man is head of the wife.
I have more posts dealing with marriage: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/index-by-topic/marriage-and-relationships/
So, do you think women are the bottom of the barrell? Is the hierarchy a matter of whose best, or whose more important? Isn’t it kind of proof that the god of the bible absolutely hates women? If not, why would bible god make them the bottom of the barrell?
Gabrielle,
No, this has nothing what so ever to do with being lesser or greater than anyone. To be explicit, neither men nor women are bottom of the barrel, as you put it.
God loves the world so much He sent His Son to suffer and die for their sins, so that everyone who accepts what He has done will have eternal life.
What I get from the bible is that Jesus die foe men only. Since men are the.only people god.actually likes. To put a group of people in constant form of.slavery is not love. Its hatred pure and simple. The fact that bible god created this hierarchy and put women on the bottom of it, is proof to me. Bible for. hates me, and all women. Bible god loves you, so you have no np idea what it is like to be hated so much from your pwn “parent”. If one of your parents said to you ” you are lower in this families hierarchy because your dad was tempted by sin, so ion this family, through all generation, men are lower than low. That they will always be.lower than low. That you will never ever have a.chance of becoming any higher. You will be a slave to someone who may not be.better than you, nit since you are so low, it does not even matter. You are to obey every command of your spouse, even if they command you to do something stupid. Oh yea, and you are still responsible foe your actions even if you have no control over them. Do what your told, ams if what you are told to do is wrong, you will go.to hell. Nice God, your bible god huh. !! @
low, how.would you feel.also, you are then told that you are not only
You are mistaken. God loves everyone who trusts Him and obeys Him.
As for obeying things that goes against what God has said, we must NEVER follow someone else into sin – regardless of who it is. We need to obey God rather than men when what men tell us to do is contrary to what God has said. There ARE limits to submission, which I have written about here:
Yes, a person should choose very carefully who they marry, rather than marry the first person who comes along or who catches your fancy. But even if yo marry the wrong person, its not about the qualifications of the man you marry, but its all about trusting the GOD you are supposed to follow.
PS I do believe in God, just not the god.of the bible. That god surely hates me and all women. I also didn’t go on a shooting spree at the.mall to kill everyone who works on Sunday. I believe in a God who wants.equality.for.all people. The.bible god and organized religion has hurt me immensely. By looking.at the.bible, I actallu.thought god hated me. While those thoughts are difficult.to get rid of, I am still.trying. rejecting the.source (bible) is not as hard as rejecting.the message ( you are lower than low) thanks
Gabrielle,
It sounds as people who claim to be Christian have hurt you very much. I’m so sorry. Please realize that God has said in the BIble that in the last days, people will be lovers of self and money and will have a “form of godliness” but will deny its power. They will “look” like a Christian but will not be Christian. It sounds as if you have met people such as this.
2 Timothy 3:1-9
I would submit that the people who hurt you might have not taught you correctly about what the Bible says, or about who the God is. God created you. God IS love. God wants the best for us, yet gives us the ability to make our choices. That in turn sometimes causes us to be hurt or to hurt others. But this does not mean God does not love you.
I will try to explain about marriage from a slightly different perspective.
I am a father. In this role, I started out with very little responsibility: I was there when my children were born and I helped change diapers, and occasionally bottle fed the babies. As they matured, what I did changed, but I was still the father: I would read to them, I would play with them, I would help them pick out clothes and I would dress them, I would answer a ton of questions, I cooked sometimes. As the children aged more, what I did changed even more. I spent more time with the children, I guided them, I disciplined them, I played with them. As they aged still further, I had to step back and let them make their mistakes while trying to keep them safe. As they aged still further, I have to wait until advice is asked for, and I become an observer. Yet at all times, I am the father – I do not get a promotion, nor do I ever get to take a vacation or not be a father. Even if I become a grandfather, I will always be a father.
This is the way it is with me being a man, and you being a woman. This is the way marriage is also.
God does not want you to reject Him, but if you reject His Son, then you reject Him. Jesus said, in Luke 10:16, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”
There is ONLY one God. He has expectations of people. If they choose to follow their own path, or a different “god”, there will be consequences for those people. But He works to ensure we trust Him. He provides opportunities for us to accept Him and what He has done for us. He doesnt want you to believe you are lower than low – HE wants you to believe you are important enough that he gives you breath every day.
Acts 17:25
Matthew 6:26
We see in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated His love for us by having Christ die for us.
God said in Deuteronomy 23:5 to those He had chosen (men and women):
God said, in Jude 1:20-21, in speaking to people who love God, to keep yourself in the love of God – how could God not love you if you are to keep yourself in the love of God?
You matter to God. Not as a slave, but as a child.
So, do you think women are the bottom of the barrell? Is the hierarchy a matter of whose best, or whose more important? Or whose just the lowest? Isn’t it kind of proof that the god of the bible absolutely hates women? If not, why would bible god make them the bottom of the barrell? Why would bible god even make such deficient creatures? do you think the reason god gave women no rights is that god hates them? Or that god just loves men more? What do you think-do you think bible god abhors women? Why else would god put them at the absolute bottom of the totem pole? Want them to be slaves (you say it’s not a master-slave relationship, but I can’t interpret the words as anything but) for life? Do you think that maybe god tried to compensate by letting women live longer, so that they could be free people for a couple of years? This is not really compensation since most of the widows I know miss their husbands (of course all of the widows I know had equal marriages-not hierarchal). In a hierarchal marriage, it may be different. Even in a hierarchal marriage , there must be some sort of affection. I can’t imagine loving someone that wants to be my “head” r, but everyone is different. If you were told by god that you were at the bottom of the barrell, would you feel that god still loved you? How would you feel if you were told you were at the absolute bottom of the totem pole. The lowest of the low. do you think being so low is a compliment from god? I would appreciate any comments you would care to make. Thank you.
Gabrielle,
You are asking a lot of loaded questions and using language which seems to indicate you dont really want answers, but justification for a fight.
Even so, I’ll try to answer your questions.
As I said, this has nothing to do with better or worse, lesser or greater. No one is the bottom of the barrel.
In any organization, a hierarchy has nothing to do with who is more important or more knowledgeable or more skilled or more intelligent. It has to do with responsibility. God has decreed that man is responsible for guiding his family to become more holy and blameless.
We are ALL sinners – men and women. And yet, God loves the world so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die to pay the penalty of our sins – all we have to do is accept what God has done.
God made people who had a choice to trust and obey Him, or not. Eve was deceived and Adam failed to lead and protect Eve from Satan. Both Adam and Eve failed. Both sinned. Yet, it is through Adam that sin entered the world. This means God holds Adam responsible for Eve having sinned. Adam was created first, and so was given the responsibility of leadership.
God made us all sinners, but has provided a way for us to rise above that, because He loves.
You are choosing to interpret the words as a master-slave relationship. For me, its easy to see the hierarchy. A husband leads his wife and children by serving them, a mother leads her children and helps her husband by serving the children and submitting to the husband (as an executive officer submits to the commanding officer). In the Christian world-view, a leader is someone who humbles himself and serves those he or she leads.
Maybe your experience is different, but I have never seen a marriage where one person did not make the final decision when both parties disagreed. One or the other will make the decisions, even if both talk it over (as in the case in my marriage). For some, they agree to divide up the various areas of responsibility (bills, children, cooking, cleaning, etc.), while for others, they agree to discuss everything. But eventually, a point comes where they do not agree and one or the other will submit to the will or desire of the other.
Why would a wonderful god subject half of the creation to slavery? does bible god not love women? Do you think bible god hates females?Why would God create a creature who, even in adulthood, needs a head or master? Do you think all men are wonderful, unselfish people that deserve a slave to contribute to the household? I just can’t understand a god that would be so mean to half of god’s population. Children grow up, slaves may become free, why are wives the only creatures that must live a continuous life of slavery? why would god appoint one group of people to be so superior to another group of people? Is this the god you worship? A god who says I’m on top, then men, and the lowest of the low are women. I don’t want to be anyone’s slave, nor do I want a slave. If we are to treat people the way we wished to be treated, why do we need master/slave relationships? Any comments would be appreciated.
Having a hierarchy is not slavery. The military has a hierarchy. The job place has a hierarchy. Any organization has a hierarchy.
Men being leaders of their family has nothing to do with whether men are competent, or women are not, nor with whether women know less than men or men more than women. Men were put in the position of leaders in the home for a reason:
1 Timothy 2:12-14
Man was created first. Eve was the one Satan deceived, yet the Bible tells us that sin entered mankind through Adam. Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” This is because Adam represented humanity and creation. A fuller description is found here: http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-does-it-mean-when-bible-says-man-head-woman
So, men are the masters of women because a women was tempted by the “devil”. Man was tempted by the women. So, all women are bad, all men good, and deserve to be the masters. In a business organization, the “boss” is determined by individual skills. the miliary also. People are promoted on the basis of skill (normally), not reproductive organs. A private has the ability to pursue a better rank, an employee is able to move up. The wife can never move up to a better “rank”. Also, if an employee is unhappy with a company s/he works for, s/he can try to find another job? I feel like a slave to my employer, but when I get home, I am finally free. This would not be the case in a head/submissive home.
In any organization, the leader is determined by different criteria. For some, its how long someone has been in their job and they are the next one in line when the leader leaves. For others, its who can schmooze the best. For others, it is who can do their job the best, or who has the most knowledge or who has the best leadership ability, or who has the best management ability (leadership and management are not the same). Every organization has different criteria for determining who should be in leadership.
But according to the Bible, God chose man because man was created first and Eve was deceived. There is no moving up or down. There is no promotion. Its a one term job – life.
Each person has responsibilities in the home. For some families, the woman does a better job at some things and she does those. For other families, the husband might be better at certain tasks. Who does what has no bearing on who is ultimately responsible to God for the family.
I’m m not trying to argue.with anybody. How.anyone else leads their.life.is up to them. I’m just trying to understand why the God.of the Bible hates me so much. I get no love. Only hate from the.bible. to bible god.I am nothing more.than an afterthought, thy oz never able to better myself. Gods despised invention. Do you have.daughters? How do you tell them about gods dislike of them because.of someone who lived thousands of years ago? Do they have any kind of self esteem? Do they believe.they are less than their brothers? That at some point in their adult life, they will need a head.to.order.them around? That they are incapable of making their own decisions? That npatter how good PR.smart they are, they are.still the.lowest on God’s hierarchy? That.they will never be.able to move up gods.hierarchy? By the.way, thanks for answering my posts (even though I am way below.you on the hierarchy, and this lower than you) ..o really want to get over.this self hatred.that the Bible has inflicted on me.
I have a foster daughter and a biological daughter. I have taught them the same thing I told you – God loves the world. He loves those who choose to trust and obey. We are all equal in importance and quality and love, we just have different roles.
I dont think the Bible has inflicted self-hate. You heard a message that is not from God. I think people in your life have done a number on you with it. We are not cause others to stumble and are to try to make it right when we do. I think those people in your life at that time hurt you. And its a shame.
I have never gotten married. When o was 17 yrs.old I hears those verses read. O decided then and there that o would never get married. On fact, I started. To hate men, thinking all they wanted.to do is.become my.”head or master. Whenever. I started to like someone, o would read.those.verses from the.Bible, and run the.other way. I had parents at the time, o did.not.need.another one ordering.me around. My life.was.kind.of.ruined.that day on church. It’s.been many years and obviously o.have not.gotten over it. I have rejected.organized religion, and.the.bible, nut the.pain of.ever thinking you were so.inadequate on God’s.eyes.really shirts. As I said.before reject the source, but.the.message.is.haedwe to get rid of. Its.easier to talk to.someone.over.the internet than in.person…thanks. for.listening.!
I understand how its easier to talk to someone over the internet.
I’m sorry you have misunderstood what God has said concerning marriage. Marriage is not about being bossy or a dictator or master or slave or being abused. Marriage is a man and wife loving God and each other and working together toward a common goal.
But you emphasize the man’s ruling over a woman as a directive or GOD and not a result of evil. So do you not see how slippery of a slope it is to promote submission? I don’t seer this strong emphasis to men day in and day out to serve. Only lead! All they tell them is lead. Promote the serving of the wife and watch the easing of opposition happen. If you promote the “power” to men and push the “submission” to women, it will easily look like master and slave. Because a master rarely ever serves slaves.
It is BOTH, a result of evil, and decreed by God because of sin. I dont think it is a slippery slope to promote what God has said to do. Its a slippery slope to say we know better than God. Its a slippery slope to say God is wrong.
Hello Gabrielle,
Am writing this from India where the Husband /wife relationship is at the worst. Its a Hindu nation and only less than 10% know about Jesus and Bible but there too a wife cant even say the name of their husbands. Husbands abuse their wife. It is not a GOD of bible as you call that leads us to this situation. I love my wife and have never considered her as my slave. As bible says we are one in flesh ie one body. Then where is the question of master /slave arise.
Gabrielle, The Bible never says that women are unintelligent, gullible, deceptive, difficult, emotional, sexually wanton, temptresses, evil, or inferior to men. Truly! In fact it says a lot of good things about women.
God loves his daughters as well as his sons. They are precious and valuable to Him.
The people who say oppressive things about women are misinterpreting scripture. I wonder what verses have caused you to think that God hates you. I’m sure that there is a misunderstanding.
I am a woman and I know that God loves me dearly.
I am very impressed by your responses to various people who disagree with you. It is sad that the roles of man and woman in a marriage is off that we see all this chaos and confusion. Also people need to read where Jesus speaks on being unequally yoked. A lot of people who have bad experiences in dating were dating or marrying people they should not have been with. Obeying God makes more sense than what you think makes sense to you because God is Alpha and Omega and as smart as anyone is, they are barely living in the present. We are all unqualified to begin to question God’s wisdom but God being wise allows us to be foolish so that we can better understand him.
If following the sense of mankind was a better option than more marriage would be successful now.
Also to the person earlier who said now we are living longer than people back in Adam and Eve’s time. I think you may want to research that a big more. Some of those people were living for hundreds or years. I am glad that God knew it wise to shorten our days as sin became worse because I would think our world would be hell if some of the old people in power now lived that much longer.
Earl, thanks for the kind words.
About being unequally yoked, you are correct. I think a man and a woman must be very careful about who they choose to fall in love with and marry. In fact, I think this is a big part of why so many people divorce – they did not check out the prospective spouse before they allowed feelings to enter into things, and once they saw something or were told something that should have been a big red flag, they were too deeply emotionally entranced to be able to recognize the truth or to do anything about it.
I think people have a difficult time obeying God because they have a small view of God, and are sinful creatures who want their own desires. We all are like that. The question is are we wiling to submit to GOd or to the world’s thoughts about right and wrong.
So ……. When Jesus said that no man could have two masters, was he only addressing men?
Does a married woman has to flip flop between two masters, or is her husband her only master?
On the day of judgement, will I be judged by God, or will I be judged by my husband? If I ignore God’s call because I must submit to my husband, who will be held accountable? Or, does God only speak to husbands? If I feel called by God to do, or not to do, something, do you believe my feelings are just a result of a sinful, inferior female imagination?
Why should wives even read the Bible when all we are supposed to do is submit to our husbands? Under the conditions of submission, there is very little else in the Bible that even applies to us. Or, should we ask our husband/masters what to do?
I used to love church. Over the years, I’ve come to realize how our church leaders look down on women. We are only allowed to do the menial tasks that men think they are to Holy to stoop to doing.
I realize your wrote in sarcasm, but I thought I would respond anyway.
A family is a hierarchy – God, Husband, Wife, children. We should always put God first.
The husband should submit to the wife and the wife to the husband., but this does not negate the fact that the husband is to lead as a servant (using Christ as the model).
The wife should never follow her husband into sin, and neither should a husband follow his wife into sin.
If God is calling a husband to something, He will call the wife, and vice versa. If not, they will not agree and should wait for clarification from the Lord, and agreement with each other.
It may be that what one (whether it is husband or wife) is believing to be a calling from God just a desire or confusion or deceit or temptation.
No where does the Bible teach that women are to only submit to their husband. But its also not something that should be ignored. Iron sharpens Iron, and we help each other to grow in spiritual maturity.
To choose to ignore scripture is to ignore what God has breathed. Its not that women are incapable – some of the most capable people I know are women. Its that God has restricted women to some roles.
So where does this limit of submission end? I often see that the wife should submit as long as it’s not a sin. It’s not a sin loosely speaking for a man to order his wife around to ‘make him sammiches’ or ‘grab him beers’ or clean up his messes, it’s also not a ‘sin’ if he controls her ability to see friends or family, or if he chooses to always go his own way and decisions in family issues while ignoring her and treating her like a servant. I don’t think this was the idea of those passages at all! The wife is not a personal servant live in maid for the husband to boss around.
I truly believe that the husband also has to submit to his wife… first of all the very first line is submit to one another… that means also the husband to his wife… the next line doesn’t even contain the word submit… wives to husbands (which was the norm in that patriarchal society) but the next bit is where we understand what its saying, also in continuation of how to submit to each other, the husband is told to love his wife SELF SACRIFICIALLY – to die to himself – in other words he is to lose his ego, his will to dominate and control. Self Sacrificial love IS submission! They are the same thing! A husband wanting his own way all the time, or trying to order his wife around is not exactly being self sacrificial is he? If he insists on having always the last say in decisions instead of discussing equally and holding his wife’s opinion just as important as is (or more so) he is not exactly being self sacrificial is he?
In another part of the Bible it says straight out that husband and wife are to be EQUAL heirs of the world. Not the husband is the heir while his wife is a subordinate assistant. And by the way not one passage in the Bible says men are to LEAD or be in AUTHORITY. It’s ALWAYS implied… wrongly. A husband who lays down his desire to lead or control his wife through loving self sacrifice, is laying down wanting to be the one in ‘charge’ and elevate his wife to position of EQUAL HEIR – side by side with him!
I challenge anyone to show a single passage that INSTRUCTS husbands to LEAD, or be in AUTHORITY. There is not a single one!!! The only instruction given to husbands is to LOVE SELF SACRIFICIALLY and that means laying down their desire to be the one in control and elevate their wives to an equal position. One can NEVER be loving self sacrificially if they are wanting their own way or expecting the other to obey their every whim and desire.
So basically its telling BOTH spouses to put the other first. That is a beautiful thing. A power imbalance however, is not a beautiful thing and EVERY SINGLE human who has 100% control over another human being, will inevitably abuse their position for self gains. It might be the game over her show one night, or his beer friends over a family event another night etc. To say the wife can never question that crap is absurd!
I always see the statement that men are to lead or be in authority but not once does the bible say men are to lead or be in authority. It only ever tells them to love their wives to the point they die to themselves in self sacrifice putting her first. That means giving her equal say in matters and not treating her as a subordinate – but as a fully capable adult that she is!
Kanadiankaur,
I have written a few things on marriage from a Christian perspective: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/index-by-topic/marriage-and-relationships/
I would agree that a CHRISTIAN husband should submit to his wife, while remembering that he is still the head of the wife, as Christ is his head.
I say a husband should submit to his wife because of Ephesians 2:21
In fact, I think a Christian man is to treat his wife as a sister in Christ – we should be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace, kind, sympathetic, compassionate, loving, humble and repay insult or injury with blessing, admonishing, encouraging, and so much more.
See here for more:
God has created men and women differe4ntly – we have different fears, hopes, strengths, weaknesses, insights, etc. Leaders would be wise to take advantage of our followers’ strengths. IF a wife is better suited to do the bills, then perhaps she should be responsible for them in her marriage, under the overall direction of her husband.
But even in submitting to her, we can not ignore the scripture which says the husband is the head of the woman. And yes, being the head means making the decisions, being the leader.
1 Corinthians 11:3
This word is kephale. It means:
In most cases where this word is used, it is speaking of the head of a person or animal, much like ro’sh in the Old Testament. And similarly to ro’sh, kephale also speaks of being supreme, chief, prominent. In this regard, being the head of the church is the leader. In the same way, being the head in a marriage is to be the leader.
Kephale is the same word used by Paul to describe Jesus’ relationship to the church in Ephesians 1:22
I have written on this previously: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/head-of-the-house/
But this question really has nothing to do with the good marriages. This question is about the bad marriages.
We should recall that many who call themselves Christians are not. Nothing is said about she is to submit/subject herself to her husband if he behaves correctly. We can really see this in 1 Peter, when Peter was writing about the wife’s behavior. She is to submit even if he is not saved, so they may be converted because of her behavior. There is nothing there about him submitting to her in this case.
1 Peter 3:1
I have written on the limits to submission: https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/what-are-the-limits-to-submission/
“Under the direction of” when one person is better at something, to then put them under the direction of the one who is lesser suited for it, isn’t that kind of condescending? It’s outright demeaning to the woman who is better at certain things maybe even leading than her husband but has to defer to him simply because he was lucky enough to be born male. Just by it’s very implication, it’s ignoring her leadership skills all together while he gets to have his way in everything even if she knows better. It’s like saying you might know better but… not really because I make final decision so it doesn’t matter that you know better. Your ability to lead doesn’t mater. That’s not the kind of marriage I wanted. I’m glad I left Christianity.
First, I don’t believe in luck. God has a perfect plan which includes everything – including who will be born and when.
Second, no its not demeaning to have a leader not know the details of how to accomplish a job. CEOs are often unaware of how to do most of the functions that the employees accomplish, and some of them might be great at leasing, but this doesn’t change the fact that the CEOs are the leaders in charge.
Third, God is the one who said men are to lead in the marriage – so it doesn’t really matter how we feel about it.
Fourh, if you “left Christianity” then you were never a Christian to begin with. We see this in scripture:
1 John 2:19
Lastly, I pray God grants you grace and gives you a new heart and faith and that you repent and turn to God through faith in Christ.
I’m sorry. I could never survive in a heirarchal marriage. I’d feel trapped, demeaned, frustrated, belittled, and made to feel inadequate. Christian God hates women… or least dislikes them enough to force them to be born into bondage under men. Try being the subordinate all the time like you have no veto power no say ever. Think you could do it?? There are just some arguments when you know you are right as the more qualified and to differ to someone who has no idea just because he feels self entitled to have his way because he has a penis?? Sorry. I actually took full baptism as a Sikh. In Sikhi male female of no consequence except for procreation. Husbands and wives are seen as so equal they become one soul in two Bodies… and not his soul over hers. They sit side by side. I have never once been in a situation where we were at such a standoff that one person has to lord it over the other as a ‘head’. You realize essentially that means the wife never has any say at all really. If he agrees with her then it was his choice. If he disagrees with her then he chooses his own way and it’s his choice. Even when he agrees with her, since it was that way he decided anyway she really has zero say in anything at all. Ever. Can you imagine how bad that and hopeless that feels?? Why do men get off easy?
And if you say this is some punishment on women for Eve. Then maybe we should take away all the machinery and force men to work by the sweat of their brows all day long again??
I dont think God hates women. Jesus honored women, and taught the church to do the same.
I think you have a misunderstanding of a hierarchy. A hierarchy is not bondage. A captain is in charge of his company, with the executive officer and every other soldier in his company in subjection to the captain with no veto power.
I did it in the navy for four years, and I do it at work all the time. Every job is in a hierarchy. I can do my job better than my boss, but my boss’ job is to lead, not to do my job. No CEO does his employees jobs. Each has separate roles. Sometimes the executive officer CAN do the job better than the captain, but its not his role – even if he could do the job better.
Each person has a role in the home. My wife runs our home, and does it so much better than I could. Together we talk about everything and because I love her and lead by being a servant leader, I serve my wife by ensuring she has everything she needs to do her job. We work to discuss everything and pray together. God has wired men and women differently, with different desires, needs, fears, etc. So if a husband ignores that, then he’s not being a good leader and will be held accountable to God for that.
I was in the Navy for 20 years 10 of them as a submariner. Through hard work and my own merit I was able to move through the ranks and I had male subordinates. You can’t compare marriage to a military system. It’s not First of all, the wife is basically stuck at lower rank for life. No hope of promotion or advancement. It’s like being stuck in a janitor position for life. Not all women are wired to do domestic menial housework and be content. I am terrible at running a house. I have laundry piled high, I am bad at cooking but good at microwave dinners if that counts. And I have never been overly comfortable around children. I can show you my PERs from the Navy and what was written about my leadership abilities, decision making abilities, initiative, supervisory skills etc. Thats where I excel. I’d feel absolutely smothered in a marriage where I had to run every thing through him and he gets to make all the decisions. I’m wired to fight for what I know is right, not submit to what I know is wrong. (And I am talking beyond religious stuff). For example I know more about investments. If he wanted to invest in something I know is high risk and we can’t afford to lose principle, and even after we talk about it and discuss etc he still wants to, your Bible says I have to submit as a woman, but I know that if I do there is a high risk and chance we will lose our home. This is not a religious thing or something under the ‘against god’ exception. According to the bible I’d have to submit because he gets to make all the decisions. I’m not wired to do that. I’m wired instead to say ‘hell no!’ and then hide his bank card! In fact I am the one who is providing 90% of our income right now as I have my full military pension and a veterans settlement for an injury. He’s not really working in a stable career with much income. Oh by the way he’s also a better cook, better with children and babies… oh no were backwards from the bible right? Neither one of us would feel comfortable with that rigid rule how we should be.
Do you know in Sikhism we have a woman hero in history who lead 40 men back into battle when they abandoned Guru Gobind Singh Ji fearing for their lives? A woman shamed them, jumped on her horse and lead the men back into battle to be forgiven and martyred. This was against the Mogul invasion in India. Their actions saved thousands. A woman… and you say women are wired differently and your only example is domesticity????? Running a house??? Women are capable of much more than domestic servitude.
Sure you can compare marriage roles to military roles. You may not like it, but its a valid comparison. The CO may or may not have have the knowledge to lead. The XO might be better qualified for being CO, but its not the XO’s role. There is a separation of role in leadership. the XO can share his/her knowledge and fears, but the responsibility is the CO’s and the CO’s alone.
Oh by the way if I have to choose I’m not a descendent of Eve, nor am I Eve. I’d much rather think I am a descendent of Lilith.
And you keep mentioning the curse. It doesn’t really sound like much of a curse for men eh? They get to rule. That’s a curse???? Because most men now in modern world don’t dig farms by hand or by the sweat of their brow anymore. Maybe if you are so concerned with women accepting their punishment maybe encourage technology should be gotten rid of, all men must work mandatory hours in a farm and till by hand?? Because it seems men were allowed to escape their punishment by technology and advancement… nice desk jobs with AC. Etc. But women no way can they ever suggest surpassing their punishment that’s blaspheme. There are advocates who say pain medicine in childbirth should be barred because it would remove the ‘pain of childbirth’ by the way I have serious problem believing a book that was written 8 decades after Jesus was gone. And though Paul may have thought he was writing the word of God wrote more about his personal disregard for women. He even says HE does not permit. He never says God does not.
You dont get to choose. Everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve.
I dont think medicine is a bad thing, and should be used where appropriate.
Ephesians doesnt speak of what Paul would allow. He says to submit one to another and then specifies the wife is to be submit to her own husband and the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church.
In terms of what Paul allowed, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 that what he was writing (a wife is to be silent in church and ask her husband at home if she has questions) was a command from the Lord.
I’m not concerned about women “accepting” anything. I am just teaching what God has said. You can argue with Him all you want.
As I said I am not Christian. God doesn’t say that to me. Instead God says “As Gurmukh look upon all with a single eye of equality for in each and very heart the Lord abides equally”. That to me is the heart of a loving marriage. Not just marriage but all humanity. Wanting to be in control or power over another in a relation supposedly of love, turns it instead into a master / servant relationship. How can anyone be intimate with someone they consider their boss. It would be yucky. There is a reason we frown on employees and bosses sleeping together. Because we know one of them is using the other for their advantage. In a power imbalance like that it can’t be from God. Have you ever thought that those verses though maybe inspired by God we’re likely the writings of misogynist men of their time, who die to cultural pretext already thought women were in a lower class and when they thought about creation could not possibly see that women deserved equal opportunity and treatment… that domination was a male driven lust for control caused by testosterone?
You can reject it, but God has said to you.
Not exactly while the CO is overall responsible for the ship as a whole, the officer of the watch who has control is accountable for their actions while navigating. The CO may be asleep and if the navigator runs the ship aground, the CO won’t be the one in front of a court Marshall. The Navigator will. I have lived this life for a full 20 years. If I messed up it wasn’t whoever was immediately over me in rank that paid. It was most definitely myself. The various positions on a ship or submarine in my case are manned by professionals who know their job. If the engineering officer completely trashed the Diesel engine it wouldn’t be the CO who paid the price. The EO would face court Marshall and the CO would not have anything against them. In that light the EO is given FULL responsibility for tuning the boat and likely more authority than the CO when it comes to running of the engine room. Further if an XO ever thought a CO was incompetent or incapacitated then they have the right to veto their commands. Does a wife have that same privilege to veto anything she feels is wrong? To make full decisions in the parts of their marriage without hinderance like let’s say she is better financially minded and he says no to something and she knows his decision would be bad outcome. Etc. If she does not have veto power or power in the areas she should then it can not be ever compared to military. And if she can veto something she feels strongly against then neither one of them is in ‘authority’ over the other are they? I think any marriage where one partner barks orders to the other and the other cow toes like a bonded servant then it’s not a marriage.
Yes, the Navigator will be dealt with, but the CO is also held responsible.
We must never follow someone into sin – so in that respect, a wife must not follow a husband into sin.
But other than that, Peter tells wives to submit to their own husband (1 Peter 3:1).
I think any marriage where either party mistreats the other is a horrible example of a marriage. I’ve seen some where the husband was horrible, and others where the wife was horrible. Both are wrong. The husband is to be a servant leader, as Christ was.